Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, I got my 1.2 group of Texas Indigos yesterday and I'm very excited! I have a few quick questions that you may be able to help with..

1) How long will they fit in a 10 gallon tank? I'm going with very natural housing and would rather the glass tank.

2) I'm thinking about feeding them some snakes but will that make it harder to get them on rodents? What's the best way to get them feeding?

3) I probed them myself, just wondering how they probe as they seemed a little different then I was use to and the females didn't even probe 2 scales like other snakes I've owned and sexed.

4) Are they very mellow by nature? I know these are good healthy baby Indigos, they just seem more laid back then any snake I've held.. These are the first Drys I've worked with.. They clearly seem more in touch with what's going on around them and more like they're thinking about what they're doing..

Thanks a lot!

Congratulations on the acquisition, Marcia,

I hope you acquired unrelated specimens, if it is your intent to breed them in the future.

As for keeping them in a ten gallon aquarium, they should comfortably fit with such for three – four months, before requiring a larger quarters. Personally, I do not like to keep Drys within aquariums, as I have found such difficult to maintain a variety of temperatures for the snakes to thermoregulate and reaching in from above often makes Drys nervous, especially younger specimens, as a hand reaching down closely resembles a set of talons swooping in.

If your new “kids” are feeding well on rodents, I would avoid feeding them snakes. I have yet to have a D. m erebennus become “fixated” on any prey item, but I prefer to supplement their diet with F/T fish, chicken, quail and farm raised bull frogs. The fish and frogs appear to help prevent issues with ecdysis and provides for healthier skin.

I do not like to probe Drys prior to three months of age, as they are quite delicate, but I have found that females normally probe four – six sub-caudals, while males tend to probe at eight – ten sub-caudals. In my experience, gently “popping” young specimens has proven very effective in accurately sexing such, as has measuring the size of the heads, as males tend to harbor proportionately larger heads, even as neonates.

Drys are generally very docile and all are highly intelligent and aware of their environment…

Best of luck to you,

Jeff

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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

I very much so enjoy your insight on these snakes and thank you for the time you took to respond.. The trouble I have is while I value your thoughts very much I never find myself sure of how to sort them out..

I know that we don't agree on values and costs of keeping.. Having bred some of the rarest snakes kept in addition to keeping 500 plus Elaphe, Pituophis and others I just don't know if Drys are so different or we just don't agree..

I'm with you on probing, I've always been very good at popping snakes but I have worked with some snakes I just never know for sure and as a rule would probe females to confirm their gender.. I have probed 4 gram snakes with ZERO ill effect.. Are the Drys just that fragle or are you as a rule against probing?

As for inbreeding, is there a different set of rules that apply to Drys? Pueblan milks are one example I would site, there were maybe 20, MAYBE... brought into the Country.. Same could be said of many snakes and for that matter wild and introduced popluations of snakes i.e. the brown snake or the first albino corn found in the 50s.. In all cases inbreeding showed very little negitive effect.. I would avoid it so don't take me wrong.. My intention is to try to find another male but I'm also not above breeding them to their brother.. This would be the first inbreeding and I can't see it having any negitive effect on the snake unless there is something unknown about Drys to me..

Anyway, I thank you for the advice and I will get pictures up soon.. Our goal here I feel is the same, even if we look at it from different views.. In the end, you made an attempt to beat me down a little on another forum.. The money isn't an issue for me, I don't mind spending money on snakes I just want a fair price.. Please keep this in mind and remember my intentions here is to have a closer group of better breeders so I'm not trying to knock you down, only define your motivations..

Thank you, Marcia, I appreciate the kind words and there are often times when folks will simply have to agree to disagree. I further believe you will find the Dry community to be one of the most accommodating to this regard.
I too, have worked with many of the rarest of the rare, many of which are still not available to the private hobby and price does not always have anything to do with the rarity of a specimen, though it is certainly a factor, as D. m erebennus are much more rare, in captivity, than D. couperi as are D. m rubidus, which are even more rare than D. m erebennus, but D. couperi continue to demand more in the way of price than the others. I might not agree with it, but then again, I am not involved with the husbandry of herpetofauna for financial gain, but I am not going to condemn others for charging what they believe is a fair price of their animals, as I can simply pay the price for such or shop elsewhere, whether it be a Dry, Pit or Elapid.
I am not against probing, but I feel as though the risks associated with probing a neonate specimen are not worth taking, as even a single mistake is one too many in such cases and I have seen even the most experienced herpetoculturists, herpetologists and herpetofauna veterinarians accidentally impale very young specimens. Besides, I know of very few breeders who have produced Drys and had the offspring ready to go prior to three months of age, so there is a bit of time and, as I have mentioned before, Drys are not for the impatient.
Unfortunately, the private captive D. m erebennus population originates from a very shallow gene pool and I would be willing to bet your trio originate from the pairing of related adults. You may wish to check your numbers regarding L. t campbelli, as I know of at least 60 that came into the US from Morelos and another 70 that came in from Oaxaca, in the late 70’s - early 80’s, and I am not aware of such numbers of wild D. m erebennus being maintained, within private collections outside of Texas, prior to the Lone Star state granting them protective status. I was once a large tri-color fan myself. Unfortunately, most D. m erebennus that left Texas, back when it was legal to capture and ship them out of state, were shipped out for the dinning pleasure of Ophiophagus hannah and other large ophiophagic species.
I am not going to go into the whole inbreeding issue, as such was only recently discussed on the forum, at length, and you can scroll back a couple of pages to see the discussion, just look for a post by Robert Bruce entitled “the virtues of inbreeding”.
I did not try to beat you down Marcia, I simply pointed out I believed you used poor judgment in where you posted your comments. I still do, but such is now water under the bridge. As for my motivations, I believe my choice of occupation and work with Drys over the past 30 years speaks for such.
Now, lets see some photos of your new kids and let us know where they came from! Oh, and welcoem to teh Dry club, I am certain you will have D. couperi before long, regardless of price, as anyone will tell you; you can't have just one! Species, that is, not merely snakes! ;0) Of course, teh D. m rubidus are a joy to work with as well!

Best regards,

Jeff

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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

Thanks for such a well spoken response! I think we agree on many fronts.. The adults that my babies came from were unrelated so if bred together it would be the first inbreeding.. Any keeping of snakes is impossible to do in a natural way.. This would including finding two snakes mating under a board and keeping them as the following year the same snakes would surely not bred again..

I'm past the point of keeping snakes for the gain of money so that isn't the issue.. My intentions are pure and I would like to start a central source of information and genetics on the Texas thus my purchase of the two domain names..

Anyway, I will not ever keep the Eastern, I doubt it possible to be more turned of to keeping a snake.. I feel the $500 price is a fair price for a snake bred and cared for out of the love of the snake.. It's like police and teachers, it just isn't done for the money..

Anyway, I'll snap photos and get them up asap.. Just waiting for a shed and I'm set..

Congratulation on your new babies! May I ask who produced them? I'm interested in finding lines unrelated to mine.

I can't add much to what Jeff said. They grow very fast so a 10 gallon aquarium wouldn't last long. I personally find aquariums hard to effectively escape-proof in addition to the other problems Jeff mentions.

I wouldn't feed them snakes if they are already on rodents (even if they weren't). And they must already be eating rodents or you wouldn't have said they were healthy indigos.

My baby females probed quite shallow as well.

They do think about what they are doing. And they are thinking about POOPING!

Good luck with them and post pics if you can!

Let me know if you find any unrelated Mike

John

How are your babies doing?

I followed you guys back and forth on the "other" site and I must admit I didn't follow your logic, but as he said, just agree to disagree..
You will need bigger cages ASAP!! Like in just a few months! And they do not like being approached from above..Almost all Texans are mellow..Have had only 1 that was not extrememly docile..We call them (Drys) lap snakes, thats how mellow they are..You will love them..What a great way to start in Dry country! I do differ on the snake feeding part a little bit..I think it's fine as long as they continue to eat rodents too..Be on the lookout for road kills, they will love them!(I think you're in AZ, so that shouldn't be a problem finding) I fed mine chicken pieces too..They will eat most anything they can get in their mouths..Realize that they will eat much more than any constrictor and most any other snake. Very rapid metabolisms..And be ready to do lots of cage duty!
I bet money you will end up with a Couperi and probably a couple of the other subs..They are all fantastic animals to work with..You've already realized how "aware" they are and it just gets better the bigger they get.
Good luck and stay on the forum!
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas