Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A friend and I found this hatchling in a very rural part of Levy County, FL.

It looks a little different from the captive bred albinos I've seen. I'm used to seeing hatchling amels having bright red blotches with light purple/pink borders. This one has dark red blotches, and grey/lavender borders. It will be interesting to see if this is the same gene as the amels that are prevalent in captivity.

That snake is not albino. It has brown eyes. It is very lightly colored though but this is characteristic of florida corns.
-----
0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

As we say in Missouri, "I ain't goin back to Missouri!"

The snake has red/ruby eyes and its characteristics seem to align with what is commonly called (in other species) a T-positive or Lavender albino.

This snake is very different from the light-colored/hypo looking corns found in some parts of FL. If it was typical I wouldn't have given it a second thought.

It may very well be a tyrosinase positive animal, but there isn't any way to tell that, without breeding trials, and even then, you'd only be able to make such a conclusion if all of the other possibilities were ruled out.

But even so, T is a far cry from amelanism, as I'm sure you know. So, it's not an amel...regardless of what it might be.
-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Well, I did call it an "albino" not an "amel". But thanks for confirming my thoughts that it is not an amel like the ones I see being sold for $15 at reptile shows.

It will be bred and test bred for sure.

You stated the following:

"It looks a little different from the captive bred albinos I've seen. I'm used to seeing hatchling amels having bright red blotches with light purple/pink borders. This one has dark red blotches, and grey/lavender borders. It will be interesting to see if this is the same gene as the amels that are prevalent in captivity."

If you didn't intend to equate that snake with amels, implying that a WC amel just LOOKS different than a captive bred one...

Well...I'm sure you can see from the above quotation why we all thought you were.
-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Maybe I should stop posting at 3am!

It is a really nice looking snake, albino or not.
Rob
-----
1.1 Bearded dragons
1.0 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Creamscicle motley corn
0.1 Creamscicle corn

I need to increase my numbers. I don't like binary code.

That looks like a hypo not an amel.

Well, I'd have to agree that it is not an amelanistic animal. It really DOES look more like a ruby-eyed hypo to me than anything else.

Nice find, though!
-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

.

It is not a bloodred/dracula corn.

it is a very very nice WC though.
-----
People with half the sense to do things right, do things wrong 50% of the time. {Me!}

Thanks
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

check out some pictures of ultramel babies. That's what it looks like to me - Its a strain of hypo combined with amel.
That's wild that it came from the wild.
Cool stuff. Were you road cruising?
-----
...and I think to myself, "What a wonderful world."

That is an ultramel. Not hypo and not albino. There actually is no such thing as a T albino, but we won't go there now.

One cannot tell by looking, but as Shaky pointed out, it's a dead ringer for an ultramel and I'm certain breeding trials will prove this out. IF this really is a wild animal and not the result of animal polution, it comes at a good time. On another corn snake forum, there is currently a discussion about someone that produced ultramels from gray rat X corn hybrids. Shrug? I doubt you have grays where this one was captured. Regardless whether this was introduced to the area or actually hatched out from wild stock, I'd bet my paycheck it's an ultramel. Breed it to an albino corn NOT het for hypo and you should get 1/2 brood of albinos and the other half ultramels. Don't get excited about the wager I just made. I breed corns for a living. Arghhhhh

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

it's an escaped captive-bred specimen. I know a few herpers from Florida who've suffered a slew of escapes during hurricanes.

NOT trying to discount what the guy found. Just saying that if it IS an ultramel, and WAS found in Florida, it can't be ruled out that the snake went AWOL following a hurricane OR from the care of an irresponsible keeper.

Best of Luck proving it out. In all honesty, I'd LOVE for it to be a new gene entirely. Who wouldn't like another 'ingredient' to throw into the 'corn soup'?

BB
-----
"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

I agree with everything you've posted. I just wanted to state an opinion. I often hear the term "irresponsible keeper" associated with escapes. Just because you have an escape doesn't always mean you are a bad keeper. It is our duty as keepers to make the cages escape proof.... But they sure don't make it easy when they are constantly looking for ways out. Almost everyone has had an escape. The important thing is to make sure it doesn't happen again and learn from your mistakes.
-----
0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

As we say in Missouri, "I ain't goin back to Missouri!"

>>I agree with everything you've posted. I just wanted to state an opinion. I often hear the term "irresponsible keeper" associated with escapes. Just because you have an escape doesn't always mean you are a bad keeper. It is our duty as keepers to make the cages escape proof.... But they sure don't make it easy when they are constantly looking for ways out. Almost everyone has had an escape. The important thing is to make sure it doesn't happen again and learn from your mistakes.
>>-----

You are right.
Good points.
But I guess we can't all be perfect like some people can we phiber?
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

"But I guess we can't all be perfect like some people can we phiber?"

Is that a stab at ME or phiber??

BB
-----
"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

>>"But I guess we can't all be perfect like some people can we phiber?"
>>
>>Is that a stab at ME or phiber??
>>
>>BB

I guess I was a little to harsh on that one.
I just don't like it when people are lumped together with such broad statements like that.
There are a lot of factors which can contribute to escapes.
Even irresponsible moments but that still doesn't make all keepers who have had escapees irresponsible keepers.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"resistance is futile"
Jimmy (draybar)

Draybars Snakes

_____

The area it came from was a remote area of the gulf-hammock in Levy County. Not many people live out there. There aren't any true gray rats in the area, all the obsoleta are Gulf Hammock rats, which are either intergrades, or a different subspecies altogether. I don't think ultramel is a particularly common morph, anyway. Without any proof to the contrary, I would assume this developed in the wild.

It'd be kinda cool if it turned out to be something completely different. If it turns out to be an ultramel, then there will be a true legitimate line. Who knows... its all good fun.

Your hopes that it is a wild creation are the very crux of my statements. Since I believe ultramels are the product of gray rat X corn, your's could be an ultramel if not for one thing. Ultra is only compatible with albinos. What are the odds an albino is out there procreating?

I realize you're thinking it is something different and I hope you're right. I always tell people to believe genetics before they believe their eyes, but in this case, your snake is a dead ringer for an ultramel. I'll dig up a pic of one of mine for you to see. Having said that, your's is prettier than any ultramel I've seen to date, but when you see pix of ultramels, the similarities cannot be ignored.

No matter what that turns out to be, it's stunning. Huge congratulations for a great find. It is not my attempt to devalue your discovery. Just offering opinions based on previous experiences and knowledge based on currently known corn morphs.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

I'm not too sure I would agree that it is an ultramel. An ultramel is actually a combination of 2 genes in their 'het' forms--albino and ultra. They are actually co-dominant to each other. In order to get an ultramel, one would have to have a breeding of animals that contained those two genes on OPPOSITE sides. For example, an albino or het on one side(male) and an ultra, ultramel, or het ultra on the other side(female). It seems highly unlikely that such a pairing would exist in the wild.
-----
Jeff
MohrSnakes.com

You have the genetics correct, but it's the "wild" part that is the basis for my theory about this particular animal. I'm confident he'll get Mendelian ultramel results when he breeds it to an albino. Since the odds of this being produced in the wild without human intervention would be something like one in a billion, I'm suggesting that it's either a direct result of animal polution or the product of animals released into the wild. Since it could have been produced from ultra x ultra or ultramel x ultramel or ultra x ultramel, it's still possible that non albinos out there are making these. Again, they'd have to be the product of animal polution since the amel element is missing in the wild gene pool. As slim as the chances are, it IS possible for het amels to be breeding out there. It's actually very possible, given the recent hurricanes that displaced so many corn snake collections.

Suffice it to say, I agree with your analysis. Since I'm convinced it's an ultramel, I'm saying it is an escapee or the product of escaped adults with these genes. I'll be shocked if breeding trials don't prove my theory to be correct.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

Don,

When you said that the amel gene wasn't found in wild populations, is that concluded because there aren't any amels found in the wild, or because we know that amelanism isn't ever a naturally occurring gene?

If the former, is that there are NONE, or just that they don't last long in the wild without their natural camoflage?

If the latter, from where did it originate?

I thought that if anyone knows, you will...got any ideas?
-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Thanks for asking cuz I didn't say that correctly, did I?

Yes, the original albino corns were collected in the wild and even adult albino snakes are caught every year throughout the world. It's just that their looks are so unnatural, wild hatched albinos rarely see their first month b'day. I know you know this, Darin, but they're essentially wearing neon signs that say EAT ME! Therefore, what I meant to say is that the likelihood of an albino contributing to wild gene pools is so remote, it's not worth considering. Add to that the likelihood that an adult albino is breeding in the same woods as corns with other recessive or compatible genes and we have a nearly impossible scenario. Of course, carriers of those traits that don't exhibit the 'look' could be contributing. Unless they're found within a mile of a corn breeder, nobody should expect to catch a bazaar looking corn that is actually a morph unless it looks so close to a normal corn, it will have no trouble blending in with the local flora.

I had a neighbor the other day ask me what snake she had found in her garden. Gulp. Sounded like one of my corns. Of course, she sent it to headless heaven as quickly as she discovered it so I'll never know. I thought about doing some road hunting last year in Stephen Roylance's neighborhood since he lost so many awesome "unnatural" corns in Hurricane Charlie the year before. I hope he sees the humor in that since he is a dear friend and I meant no disrespect. Just pointing out that it's so rare for an albino or other color and pattern anomaly to survive to adulthood in the wild, we may as well say they don't exist outside our cages. Of course, some are so similar to nominate color/patterned corns, they do just fine. A person could easily collect two or three hundred anerythristic A corns in the wilds of Florida in just one season.

Darin, thanks for asking so I was able to clear up my exaggeration.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

LOL...I just figured I wasn't reading you correctly!

Thanks for the clarification.

-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

...not my favorite way to hunt out snakes, but it works. I had looked at pictures of ultramels and agree this one looks a lot like that.

Don't want to beat a dead horse guys but Florida got slaughtered the past two or three years with weather. I know of guys who lost big portions of their collections to the flooding that occured as the winds wiped out snake rooms. Finding a loose captive would not surprise me at all. The odds are probably better than the thing happening in the wild.
Pat

Combine that the fact that there are individuals (some rather large corn producers) who simply let their surplus hatchlings go in their backyards (and some do live in FL, by the way), and you get all sorts of things liable to pop up there.

It can be a mess...

-----
Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Remembered I have a link to a picture of an ultramel on the front page of my web site for almost a year now.

South Mountain Reptiles

I can definitely see the resemblance. We'll see what breeding trials prove out.

amel, hypo, something new or not...overall still a cool find.