Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A friend's kid brought an ornate back from Missouri this past weekend. I managed to persuade him to give it up, as it would surely have not done well at all under his care.

It's a 4" female, and seems to be quite healthy at this point. I have it set up in a 55 gallon tank with 4" of cypress mulch for burrowing, a spotlight over a flat rock on one end for basking (temp on that end is about 88), an Exo-Terra Reptisun 5.0 48" florescent, a half-log at the other end stuffed with moss which I intend to keep damp. Since I obtained the turtle Monday, I have been soaking it for about 20 minutes a day. I do not have water in the tank for it as I read they prefer dry conditions other than in their hidey hole.

Thus far she's been eating superworms (fed fish flake and dusted with repcal's vitamins and calcium) and earthworms. I've tried raspberries and strawberries, but she's not interested in that as of yet.

I have read that this species is particularly difficult to keep healthy in captivity. As I live in North Dakota, outside maintenance is not a possibility. I'm looking for advice to assist me in successfully maintaining this turtle. So far she's been active from dawn to dusk, cruising around the tank, and eats the worms/superworms greedily.

After reading a comparison of UVB bulbs, it looks like I'll want to pick up a mercury vapor bulb to swap the spotlight out with... but that will have to wait for a week or so

Thanks!
Chris

Sounds like your indoor setup is ok.
What are your temps like in the summer?
Would it be possible to set up a pen for
warm weather?

I think ornates are found as far north as Wisconsin.
I don't know how that compares to North Dakota, but
since this turtle came from Missouri, you are right
to be cautious and not assume that it could tolerate
cooler temps, farther north, especially in winter.

But I would think you would have some spring/summer/
early fall days where he might enjoy being outside.

As far as indoors, you're going to want to provide a
range of temperature and humidity(as much as possible).
I would also provide a water dish that he can get in and
out of at will.

You might consider a large rubbermaid tub. That might
allow for more temperature and humididy variations as
well as a nice sized "pool" and hiding area.

It has been my experience that ornates are more fragile
than three-toeds. I've never lost a three toed, but I have
lost ornates.

Biggest problems are respiratory infections and eye problems
that may or may not be related to vitamin A deficiency.
I've had some ear infections, or swollen "ears", that were
mainly a result of respiratory infections.

I've pulled several through respiratory infections by adding
heat, pedialyte/gatorade soaks, force feeding a baby food chicken mixture, and occasionally giving a very small amount of
cod liver oil(mainly when eyes are the problem).

I once had to take a group to a reptile vet because they weren't responding to treatment. I had one male ornate, that
the vet thought might not make it. She put some sort of antibiotic directly into his trachea and put him and the others who were less severely on baytril. They all recovered.

By the way, Baytril works JUST FINE by mouth. I have never injected it. My vet wasn't comfortable with me doing that and it has always worked just fine by mouth.

I have never had a problem with parasites until this summer. I have a "sub adult" ornate rapidly crash and die(she never stopped eating). Her only symptom was that she didn't seem to
want to move her back legs very much. A necropsy didn't show anything. The vet said she looked like a healthy turtle.
The things he did note, could have been normal postmortom findings.

I then notice one ornate and one three-toed were not using their back legs normally. I had a vet do a fecal and he found coccidia. Both were treated with Albon and are now walking normally and otherwise seem fine.

I've never heard of back leg usage mentioned as a symptom,
except for another protazoa that we initially suspected.

Anyway, I don't mean to imply that ornates are an impossible trainwreck. But they are more fragile and you need to have a reptile vet (or one who is willing to learn) available.

My reptile vet moved and the vet I use now doesn't "specialize"
in reptiles, but he has the current reptile medicine and surgery book and is willing to do what it takes to make sure he is proceeding correctly. He even called the vet school about
the aforementioned problems I had this summer.

Anyway, just do as much research as you can, keep a close
eye on him and, post here if you have any questions and keep
a vet handy.
Link

While the 55 gallon is not the ideal enclosure; it certainly is far better than the conditions you have rescued him from. I'd recommend that you wrap at least three sides with paper to give the boxie a sense of security. Boxies don't like to see out, they feel open and not safe in aquariums. It may cause her to pace constantly. In addition I'd provide several hides; a cool one and a warmer one for him to thermoregulate himself.

Aquariums offer other challenges in that is that the height of the 55 gallon is too high for most fluorescents; but can be too low for the mercury vapor which can really cause the temps in there to exceed safe conditions. You may want to consider a dual light setup; with two 24 inch Reptisun 10.0 that penetrates up to 20 inches and on the opposite area, an incandescent basking light with a Swing Lamp(Architect's Lamp) that you can vary the height, heat and intensity as you move the arm and light with the seasons and vary the wattage as needed. It would give you the most versatility.

Also you'll need an area with a thermal heat source from underneath. An under-tank reptile heater 8 watt on one side should do it. You could set the heater via a electric timer to come on at one hour after your lights go off; and to go off as they come on or even over lap them a bit.. You'll have to experiment with the temps setup and lighting to try and duplicate his natural environment; but he will need warmth at times radiating from his ventral side for proper digestion. It will replace the warmth given off for hours after dark from the ground as it acts as a thermal heat traps and emits heat during the night.

Also while she is from a dry environment so humidity won't be a problem; however she will need access to soak in water daily. Consider in summer that she can be brought outside for some natural sun rays in a protected area.

P.S. They love grasshoppers!

Good Luck,

Ric K.

Thanks both of you for the extremely informative replies. On your recommendations, I have placed paper around the back and sides of the tank, and have installed a permanent water bowl. I have a few undertank heaters in a box somewhere and I'll install one of those under one end of the tank as well.

The 4" bed of cypress mulch seems to be working very well for burrowing. SHe has been burying herself on the end of the tank where the heat lamp is, so this is also where I'll install the UTH so there's belly heat all night long. The idea of putting the heat lamp and UTH on rotating timers is a good idea.

Other than the zoophobas worms and earthworms (and grasshoppers ) are there any other can't-miss foods I should offer her? So far raspberries/strawberries and chicken dog food haven't interested her. Since ornates are substantially more carnivorous than easterns, how much of her diet can be live/meat foods, assuming it's supplemented with the Herptevite and Repcal calcium as well as an occasional drop or two of cod liver oil? THis is assuming she remains stubborn on the plant matter... which I hope isn't the case.

I'm also considering lowering the UVB light into the tank. I don't want to cook her w/ the mercury vapor.

Thanks again!
Chris

Since your Ornate is young; her preference for carnivorous foods will be high and taper off to being more omnivorous as an adult. But as you have previously stated Ornates are naturally more carnivorous than other boxies subspecies. Each ornate will have it's favorite foods.. You will learn those she really prefers; however remember it's best for her to have variety. Other foods besides those you have listed are crickets, roaches, caterpillars, waxworms, thawed frozen pinkie mice( frozen at least four days as a precaution against parasites), cooked chicken, sowbugs aka pillbugs, ripe cantaloupe, blackberries, de-spined prickly pear cactus, tomatoes, sliced peaches, apples, mango, dandelions flower and leaves, romaine lettuce, collard greens and grapes. Dusting insects and mice with Rep Cal D3, three/ four times a week is recommended.

*Foods that my Ornates have especially relished are earthworms, thawed cut up previously frozen pinkie mice, ripe cantaloupe, crickets, dandelion flowers, pillbugs, waxworms and at times- blackberries.

You might try and mix her favorite with chopped up veggies.

Ric K.

I am so glad that you got the ornate. I have one that was given to me 17 years ago. She was kept by the former owner for 5 years previously and was rescued from a pet store that was selling WC at the time. She was in bad shape then, but has thrived in captivity.

Hobbs, as She is called, loves earthworms, waxworms on occasion, superworms, redworms, crickets, and anything else that moves. Because she is an adult, I give her greens one day and live food the next. It is easier to get the calcium supplement to stick to the nightcrawler than to get her to eat the greens with it on them. Her favorite fruit is mulberry, which doesn't have much flavor to it if you ask me.

Hobbs tends to be on the shy side. She comes out when she is hunger and then goes to bury herself when she is finished.

Thanks for the dietary tips. I should be able to find all of the various insects locally fairly easily except for the roaches. I picked up a rubbermaid 54 gallon tub tonight and just switched out all of the substrate and furnishings from the 55 gal aquarium while she was soaking (still is soaking, actually). After eating a night crawler and 2 superworms this morning she was buried all day, so maybe the stress of the glass enclosure was starting to get to her.

Thanks again for the great advice. !

I have an ornate box turtle, indoors. I have had him for 2 or 3 years (I think). This is the first year he hasn't been able to live outdoors in the summer as I now live in an apartment. The last couple of years he got to live outdoors for about 2 to 3 months out of the year (in the summer). His previous owners kept him in a 10 gallon tank with a heat lamp and fed him box turtle pellets. They tried to sell him to the petstore I work at, which did buy him for $6 and then gave him to me a week later when he refused to eat. His nails were curled around to his feet and his beak had overgrown so much he had a very hard time eating. He also had hookworms. His jaw doesn't line up quite square and wears uneven so he gets a yearly beak sculpting from the vet. Surprisingly his shell is not really deformed at all.

I have found regular wandering around time to be important (in a safe area of course). I usually let him walk around for a couple hours a day. I put him back when he goes to a certain spot (behind the litter box). When he is there it is to go to sleep, so he goes back in his tank at that point. If I skip a day or two of letting him out he paces in his tank. He does not pace at all when he gets a couple hours to explore. Some people think handling should be at a minimum, but when kept in confined areas indoors this is the best way for him to get exercise and stimulation (in my limited experience). I do not recommend walking around barefoot when a boxie is wandering around . . . toes are potential food items in their eyes I also take him outside to walk around (in a safe place) on warm days.

I use a reptisun 10.0 uv bulb and find this to work well. I have used reptiglo bulbs (5.0 and 8.0) and 5.0 reptisun bulbs in the past and the 10.0 is much better. He is much more active, eats better and his skin looks better. During the day I have heat lamps (2 100 watt ceramic heat emitters) on one end of the tank (75 gallon tank with black paper around the sides and back). I have been keeping him on spagnum moss the past 8 months and he seems to like it. I change it once a month. He has 2 hides and a water dish and a lot of fake plants to hide under. Real plants just didn't work in this set up (he destroyed them). One of the hides I keep very humid. I take a watering can and water inside the hide every other day. The general humidity of the tank is usually around 40% and inside the hide is 80-100% (depending on when I last watered it). From what I understand in the wild they spend a lot of time underground in humid tunnels/microclimates. He has to climb over some shale rock to get into the water dish. This seems to keep his nails filed back nicely and keeps the moss from being dragged into the water. At night the heat lamps go off, however there is a heat lamp under his tank (from a gecko tank) that is on 24/7 and warms the substrate a little in his tank on the same side his heat lamps are on. The humid hide is also on this side. All his lights (heat and UV) are on a timer. I vary the amount of time they are on by the season.

I feed him every other day. I alternate back and forth between bugs or pinkies and veggies/fruit. For bugs I feed mealworms, waxworms, superworms or crickets. I also occasionaly buy "pheonix worms". About once a month he gets a couple thawed pinkie mice coated with calcium powder. His bugs are usually coated with calcium powder and about once a week with vitamin powder. He won't eat veggies if they have powder on them but he will eat coated bugs. They are also all gutloaded with various veggies and monkey chow.

For veggies weekly I pick up small amounts of different veggies (usually 4 or 5 different kinds) dice them up small, mix them together so he can't pick out any specific one and put it in a container in the fridge. At feeding time I mush some berry over them. This has been the most successful way for me to get him to eat a variety of veggies.

Some different veggies I feed him include: green squash (zucchini), yellow squash, portabello mushroom, [bleep]aki mushroom, butternut squash, broccoli (only occasionaly), dandelion greens, collared greens, endive, escarole, romaine lettuce (only occasionaly), red pepper, green pepper, snow peas, okra, green peas, cactus pads, edible flowers when available, carrot, sweet potato (occasionaly). There are more I just can't think of them. I switch them up every week so he doesn't become bored with them.

Some fruits he eats include: strawberries, cantelope (his favorite), raspberries, grapes (cut in half so they don't roll, or, if I leave it whole he will chase it across the floor), banana (not one of his favorites but he will eat it) avacodo (is it a fruit?).

During spring he usually will not eat as much veggies/fruit. I think this is because it is breeding time and he is occupied with other thoughts.

I have offered several different prepared foods (bought at the petstore) and he has not eaten a single on of them since i got him, even though he was raised on them for the first 5 years of his life. I wouldn't use these as any significant part of the diet but have tried them just for more variety. He occassionaly sneaks a peice of catfood out of the cats dish when he is walking around, but not often (as she is a pig and normally cleans out her bowl).

I always feed him on a rock to try and help keep his beak trimmed. I also feed him outside of his cage in a blue bin (the rock is put in the bin, and food on top of the rock). He now peers out of his tank when he sees it and looks to see what I am putting in it. He gets very excited when he sees me putting in bugs or pinkies and runs to the side I usually pick him up from. Sometimes when he sees me putting in veggies he goes and sits in his cave. These are usually the days he won't eat them. If he refuses to eat his veggies I usually keep offering them until he eats them and then resume alternating back and forth between veggies and bugs. If he goes more than a week without eating (which is rare) I usually give in and he gets bugs. He gets soaked breifly in the blue bin also before he gets to walk around. He usually goes potty at this time and keeps me from having to clean up after him. It also keeps his environment cleaner as he rarely defecates in his tank with the regular soaking.

He gets a yearly check up at the vet (as do all my animals) and twice a year I have a fecal done to check for parasites. Having a good vet is invaluable. I have to drive an hour away for my vet but it is worth it.

Once we got him healthy after I first got him he has not had any problems, except, I think it was hookworms, after the 1st summer he was outside. And he had a respitory infection one winter when i went to florida for 2 weeks and left him in my dads care. My dad turned the heat off to my room while i was gone, not thinking, and even with heat lamps it got to cold. Baytril cleared it up very quickly.

I personally do not really like having him indoors all year but until I get a house this seems to work. This also has worked for me for winter housing the past few years I've had him. My husbandry with him has changed a couple times, and probably will several more times as my situation chages, from rubbermaid bins (hard for me to heat and keep up humidity), to living loose in my room with a few basking spots (which almost ended up with a fire) and ultimatly to the 75 gallon tank which I have found to work best for me. I just thought I would share my care with you and hope it helps you.

-Melissa