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I would be interested in tracking down where Jim Kane's adults went and/or pure offspring from this particular bloodline. If anyone has any information about these animals/bloodline please reply to this post or contact me off line.

Thanks,
Dave B

>>I would be interested in tracking down where Jim Kane's adults went and/or pure offspring from this particular bloodline. If anyone has any information about these animals/bloodline please reply to this post or contact me off line.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Dave B

Kane's weren't anything supper special. Nice animals, but that's all. One was an untraceable animal supposedly descended from zoo stock (and probably was) and the other was a vandeventer.

BE CAREFUL, THOUGH. He sold a few unrealted pairs. Those pairs were made up of his pure offspring and those mutts that Ginter had at one time BEFORE he learned that they weren't pure ruthveni. SOOOO, some of the "Kane stock" that people have out there aren't both Kane's animals - or even both pure animals! Be careful!

A few people I know have some of his pure offspring, but those are few and far between. His original pair are no longer really available. One died the first year the new owner tried to breed them and the other one ended up with [name ommitted] on loan from S. Fowler. Since then, that animal fell off of the face of the earth and is assumed dead or with (name also ommitted].

KJ

KJ,
The original Kane animals were a pair that I sold to him as juveniles back in 1994. The male was from Steve Reichling at the Memphis zoo, and the female came from Eric Richter via Lloyd Lemke. I have a copy of the original studbook page from Steve Reichling, and so does Dave Boyle, it has my name on it at the top of the page. You are right to caution people about mutts. There are quite a few floating around, but those of us who have been working with pits for years are usually not fooled.
Mike Collalto

Kane would never say (or forgot) who he got his stock from, and knew NO registration numbers for his adult Zoo animal OR the numbers for ANY of that animals ancestors. I never doubted it was pure based on morphometrics, but it wasn't traceable. Once STEVE Reichling stopped tracking hobbyist-owned animals, all zoo stock lost its ability to be completely traced. He made the right call, but it does hurt us, doesn't it.

Eric Richter also worked a lot with Vandeventer ruthveni. I think you put his first name on Steve's last name. I've done that as a slip of the "tongue" many times myself.....lol.

THANKS FOR THE POST on Kane's background!

KJ,
It's no surprise to me that Kane never said who he got them from, but that's a whole other story. He is originally from Rochester NY, and I've known him for years. But yes, he got that pair from me, and the male is registerable, you can ask Steve Reichling himself. The female, of course, was a Vandeventer animal that came from Eric Richter way back when. All in all, if you want pure ruthveni, they are few and far between, but they are out there.Dave Boyle's are definately legit, as he has a copy of the paperwork from Steve R.... P.S. You read too fast, I did'nt mess up the names! Check the post again.. LOL!
Mike Collalto

> It's no surprise to me that Kane never said who he got them from, but that's a whole other story.

Werll, let's just say that Reichling had never heard of Kane's name. If you mentioned that to Kane, he threw a fit like a 2 year old....lol.

>P.S. You read too fast, I did'nt mess up the names! Check the post again.. LOL!

Doh! I skipped an entire line andwent from Eric's first name to Reichlings last name. My bad. That's a typo I have personally made, though....lol.

I still remember making the connection between the name on the paper and the person...
"COLLALTO"...who is that? ahhh, FIAT LUX! ( I see the light)

You would hardly know it today, but there has been a good chunk of herpetoculture that seems to have passed through Rochester and western NY...
daveb

KJ-
thanks for the input. I was curious if anyone had taken more care of that particular bloodline.
Nice to see you're still kicking around. How are the alligators treating you?
DaveB

>>KJ-
>>thanks for the input. I was curious if anyone had taken more care of that particular bloodline.
>>Nice to see you're still kicking around. How are the alligators treating you?
>>DaveB

I taste too bad for them to hold on when I screw up and stick my shoulder in their mouth, so I guess the better question is how am I treating them? LOL.

With TPWD's new rules on harvesting gators, we may not have any in a few years, so I guess it doesn't matter any longer.

Stephen Fowler. I haven't heard his name in a couple of years.
-----
Anthony Chodan

www.gradeareptiles.com

>>Stephen Fowler. I haven't heard his name in a couple of years.
>>-----
>>Anthony Chodan
>>
>>www.gradeareptiles.com

I talked to him about twice a year. As far as I know, he is still alive. Last I heard, he doesn't have any ruthveni in his possession. That might have changed, though. It's been a while.

Gee guys, you forgot about my legit LA pines. I caught the male in north Georgia and the female and in Kansas and when I bred them they produced LA pines! lol Now you telling me that the ones Ginter had are hombres??? I've got six of those animals from his stock!!

Dan

Hey now......be nice. That was a long time ago,when I was younger and dumber, things have changed. Well, i am older anyway.

Geeze a guy breeds and distributes potentially questionable ruthveni and you never let him live it down......

Let this be a lesson to all 1) the guy on the other end of the phone could be lying, 2) Even fake ruthveni can LOOK real.

As a result of some dishonest folks wanting to cash in we have to have these threads and conversations!

The guy who sold me my fakes back in the mid 90's finally actually said that he bred northern pine into them to strengthen the line !!!!!

Here is a pic you might enjoy. I tossed the big ones in with their tiny island cousin. P. m l., P.r., and P.c.p.

Cheers,Ginter

Someone emailled me and asked me about Ginter's stock recently. This is what I sent them, and what I believe to be true:

"The ones he [Ginter] HAD were hybrids. He spilt them up and gave them to two different friends. Supposedly, they are to be never bred again. The ones he has NOW are pure Vandeventers. I'd be proud to own them myself."

The Gint made a mistake. That's it. He doesn't deny it. THE only reason it is ever still brought up is because people that have his OLD stock need to realize they aren't pure like his NEW stock. It just means that people buying Ginter stock from a third party need to ask when those animals were sold by Ginter. End of story.

Anywone holding something against Ginter about this can kiss MT hairy yellow butt.

...at least Ginter has told people who he sold/gave his hybrid adults to. LOTS of breeders (I know who many of them are) had hybrids, got pure ones later, and seem to deny they ever had the hybrids or can't say what happened to them. THAT bothers me personally a LOT more than what Ginter did does.

KJ

I have two pair from John's current stock. As good as it gets. AND as far as dealing with breeders, John has been one of the most honest men I have dealt with. How many other guys do you know would admit to any sort of mistake? not too many. Three cheers and six beers for Mr. Ginter.

DaveB

Just wondering...when did Mr Ginter change his stock out? The ones I purchased from him was in 2002 and the others I got from Suncoast, (which were Ginters stock)in 2005. These were all sold to me as pure "Lousiana Pines." Just wondering, are these LA's or not? When did this "change take place?

Dan

I have blocked the experience of those fake LA's but I think it was 97 or 98 that I inadvertantly passed counterfiet ruthveni. Kj and Bob Fengya (sorry about the spelling Bob where ever you are) helped crack the case through some really persistant leg work and relentless questioning of the creator of these mutts. KJ probably has a better recollection of the exact year or years that I let questionable animals go but I think Those two years are probably close.

Recommendation: Do not go on looks alone when getting into ruthveni, do not rush the purchase even if it means getting bumped from a list. Better not be in a hurry to buy questionable animals. Float the sellers name on Kingsnake and see what folks think.

Cheers, Ginter

a nice Locality Florida Pine for your viewing pleasure

Hi JG, the ones I got from you were in 2002. I had referred JS of Sun Coast to you and he purchased some from you the following year. I now have five of them (two from you and three from Suncoast). If they are not legits, I would like to know. If they are not, I'm not angry about it because they are still very nice animals. The truth is..I don't trust any so called LA pines to be legit unless one can trace them back to wild caught animals. Much of the present breeding stock has traces back to the Dallas zoo and that is a questionable stock from communications with a former zoo keeper. KJ and I had this discussion several years ago. So, John, you are not the first to pass on hybrids as the real thing, and if those I have from you are not, I'm ok with that...because if they are or if they aren't, I'm not going to sale the offsprings as legits anyway.

Dan

ARE LEGIT. Dude, did you even read the last post? I am not sure if I was unclear with the last post but again any thing that came from me after the late 90's should be considered as legit as Eric and Terry's animals. If you got fakes you know about it already because I would have already contacted you BACK IN THE LATE 90's to let you know about it. If you got animals from me, or mine through Shannon, or mine through John S in 2000 or later they are real LA's. I hope that puts you at ease. The people who got the questionable animals already know about it.

I hope this tread is instrumental in pointing out to people how screwed up ruthveni breeding has become as a result of dishonest folks.

Thanks John, but yes, I did read your last post. It wasn't clear whether you changed out your stock adults for babies or other adults as there would be a time laps between the two pairings. My point was (and it was not aimed at you) is that many of the old timers and ruthveni experts, and we know who they are...used the Dallas zoo animals as part of there original breeding stock. Those animals had some questionable heritage to them as well, but they have long been "accepted" as pure ruthveni, so from my view point, I do not accept any ruthveni as being "pure" unless both parents can be traced to wild caught animals. I don't have that ability to do so, (trace them back), and I know some others who I have talked to (KJ, Terry)have done alot research on these backgrounds and are very knowledgable on this subject. Maybe it is just my "doubting Thomas nature" after being into reptiles for 50 years, that I want the animals to be traced back to wild caught parents. By the way...I remember the days when Laplace Snake Farm used to have them on there price lists along with Cope's milk snakes. Geeish...I'm giving away my age.

Dan

Actually, I've taken on your outlook myself for many reasons. There are a few pure lines out there, but within a generation or two, they'll be outcrossed to hybrids via ignorance (if nothing worse) - many are currently in that boat already - or succumb to inbreeding depression like the Rapides line has already done. Either way, I'm a firm believer that the ruthveni in capptive collections will be gone within my hypothetical children's lifetime. I have no doubts about that....and I'm NOT a pessimist. If anything, I'm being optimistic with such a long time span.

Most would get deleted if I posted things on this forum. Hell, even saying something bad about Trumbower's stock (hybrids, duh!) might even get the posts removed. ....and to think that TPWD were the ones called JBT, huh?

Those of us with our eyes and ears open for the last 1-2 decades know a lot more than we want to are can say. Don't we, Dan? It's a shame. That's what it is.

>>Much of the present breeding stock has traces back to the Dallas zoo and that is a questionable stock from communications with a former zoo keeper.

Add the Baton Rouge Zoo to your lis on not-good records......