Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I understand that it allows for the state to come to your house and inspect without the formality of a real warrant. But has anybody ever seen it happen? Have they ever had an officer stop and ask to inspect your collection under the permit?

I am under the impression that it has never happened and is not likely to. But I thought I would ask.

much like a hunting license constitutes consent to search your game bag, vehicle, etc. for game (not getting into whether or not that applies to nongame), the commercial permits and dealer's permits allow them to inspect your facility for "listed species".

Currently, the number of "listed species" for which you need the commercial permit or dealer's permit (to sell) is limited to rattlesnakes, most "eating-sized" turtles, and a few "high-volume-in-trade" lizards & toads (and some mammals).

However, I have never heard of anyone having thier "facility" inspected.

Troy

Steve said you were critical of my pictures this year.... Maybe you should head up this way and show me how it is done? Bring the Wife and Kid and we can all make a day of it.

It has been a long time since I have seen anything of you outside the internet.... Did not even catch you out West this year.

Lance, so far I've spent 25 nights in alterna-land . . . 3 on 277, 1 on 674, 7 in Davis Mts, 8 at Alpine, 2 at BG, 1 at RR/Xmas, 2 at Sanderson . . . I think work had you in FL most of that time? I was in Alpine giving Steve directions to give you directions to spots in AZ right before you got the Hueco - even told Steve to tell you to hunt the Huecos on way back . . .

I guess if you wanted to catch me in west Texas, you'd have to have been there when I was LOL

Troy

If you click on your Inter-Galactic Translator that is Lance's way of saying, "Haven't seen you in a while, hope you are in the Metroplex Soon so we can all hang out".

Thanks for giving me all the directions and such for Lance...

Steven

yes they have inspected people down south that collect & sell rattlesnake parts (skins, oils, meat belts etc) they do make an appearance in freer at the round up to check lic & permits. they have also tried to put the burden on the person buying an animal to collect permit info from a individual selling a snake. i have had quit a discussion with people on that, if i buy a rattlesnake from someone it is not your job to collect the info but rather there job to buy the permit. you must have a permit to sell but not to buy. this has put a kink in the roundups, most people dont want to buy a permit to sell just a few snakes so they are not collecting the snakes to much down south. now this is a good thing but i guess what chaps myass is that tp&w had not intention to shut it down, they just wanted a slice of the pie (a pimp you could call them) now that the roundups are hurting the pimps will not make as much money. the gangster pimps will be back for more money from us hobbyist, they will create a new & better way to extort money from individuals. keep in mind tp&w couldnt give a crap about snakes, they are just like any other agency they are a huge money machine. i want my money spent on specific studies on reptile species.
now with all that said here is a little warning for some of you, a few people will pick up a rattlesnake or 2 for a friend, the friend being a nice guy gives a few bucks for your gas. even though you didnt sell the snake at market value you did in a round about way sell it, if that snake crosses state lines it is now a very serious problem, not just a little class c, but rather a nasty ole lacy act violation, even though you were just being a nice guy friend, sometimes you are not even exchanging money but rather trading, the trading is the same thing because there is always value in the trade. you need to think carefully because even though most of you are great folks and dont mean harm its just a matter of time before one of you gets popped so please be careful. if your doing this for a friend just give them the animal, it just looks better that way. also under the lacy act if you knowingly buy a snake from someone who doesnt knowingly have a permit or a valid lic, you are also guilty under the lacey act.

yes lance according to the permits they can search your facility, i dont know if the supreme court will allow it but for all purposes they have the right under their terms, i had permits for whitetail deer & they came to look around a couple of times a year, it wasnt much of a big deal unless a deer lost an ear tag then it was a pain in the asss.

ok troy now comes the pissing match, people like to say the game wardens can search for game animals, this is whats in parks & wildlife code so they believe it to be true. if you all remember back we had this discussion in the past a few years back. the supreme court has ruled on this & the answer is no they are not above the law & must obtain a warrant. now as you said in your post, it does say game animal, a snake is not a game animal or even considered an animal in the code or in case laws. an animal is a fur bearing animal in case law. a few years back i made a post on here about having an ass kicking contest if they illegally tried to search my vehicle, well guess what i was stopped 2 weeks later i was stopped by fernando out west of sanderson, he told me that he has read what i have been posting & he could search if he really wanted to, i explained how that wasnt going to happen & he was not legally going to, well 2 hours latter i was right & on my way lol.
ever since then we got along much better, & we where always much more cordial to one another, i actually looked forward to chit chatting with him after that. i often would carry a copy of the supreme courts ruling with me for those types of stops.

protect rights people, i cant always do it for you, read & learn your rights you have an obligation to now them as a citizen of this country.

Jeff

the way the "search your game bag" code is written, as I understand it, is that by purchasing a hunting license and by engaging in hunting, you have already authorized and consented to a search of your game bag, etc, by LE.

you may have more info on how the state and/or federal supreme courts have ruled on such searches than I do. I have no knowledge of those rulings one way or another. Could you post case numbers?

e.g. State v. John Doe, 1986 . . . most of that stuff is now online and searchable if one knows were to search and has the case numbers, etc.

Troy

the supreme court has ruled that it is in violation of your rights, i dont have the exact ruling handy ill come across it again somewhere. it is also been ruled that you can not signs your legal rights away in that fashion. that is why most contracts are written to include wording such as if any part of this contract is found to be illegal, all other portions are still in effect. that has been challenged allready, the thing i dont know about is how it works with special permits????????

Okay.i had downloaded a docu. and printed with the de-regulated scenario of what someone had put on here ( Troy Hibbets ? ) of deregulating of atrox and alterna ? I flashed this info to the game warden as i said that the hunter permit wasn't necessary for these 2 species and as i said, the permit wasn't a first thought of showing on the stop but only afterward and didn't seem to matter a whole bunch to him. So is it true that atrox and alterna is deregulated as far as not to having to have a hunters permit ? And if so, it is of state resident or how does it work on non-resident.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

sale of atrox is supposed to require collector's permit for selling to a dealer only or dealers permit for selling to the public.

alterna (and most if not all other colubrids) are not on the regulated list.

Troy

I'm not sure how Lacey Act would apply here, Tanks, since it covers interstate transportation.

The non-game department of TPWD seems to have been an attempt by the state to appear as if they were moving toward the 21st century. Herron made a lot of noise and a few changes made (none of which really protected any animals)but now the non-game department seems to be relegated to a back burner.

TPWD does no real studies on non-game animals so haven't a clue as to what is going on nor what needs to be done. The Non-Game advisory panel seems to have been made up of people who would not make any waves nor open their mouths. Box turtles, rattlesnakes, collared lizards and other non-game animals were still being eradicated by commercial collectors. The state showed no concern.

The state has never shown any desire to hear from the people who are out there night after night, year after year, observing. We know that box turtles and collared lizards are disappearing. We know that most species are getting harder to find. Why this is happening is a multi-faceted problem and one not easily understood; there is no need to get into them here. The thing is that the state still allows unhampered commercial collection and sale of its native resources so long as the proper permits are paid for.

Herpers are a differnt breed. We don't pay huge fees to land owners so that we can take an animal which belongs to the people of the state. We don't kill the animals we find. We don't spend hundreds of dollars on the proper mode of dress so that we will look as if we belong to a certain group. Instead of spending thousands on weapons and ammunition and mineature 4WD vehicles and boats we spend a few bucks on hooks, tongs and lights. We do not fit any socially acceptable mold and because of this the state will never understand us. If we were all out there just to make a buck (as is generally portrayed of us in the media) then they would have a niche in which to put us. We don't, they don't, it will never happen. The best we can hope for is that they continue to ignore us for the most part.

Some of us make major purchases based on our hobby. I know that was a consideration on my current vehicle. I also spend a chunk on new equipment each year, half of the fun is having a new toy. Plus many of us drop a chunk on lodging and food while we are out. And there is no reason to get me started on fuel cost, we have all felt that one this year.

I think the only thing that puts us behind traditional hunters and fisherman would be the lack of numbers. There just are not many of us that enjoy this hobby compared to the whole of "outdoor enthusiast". I would bet that on a person to person bases we are not far below the average.

John,

The nongame Advisory committee that TPWD set up invited a diverse group of wildlife and landowner groups, ranging from the Davis Mt/Trans Pecos Natural Heritage "private land protection" group through the various academic societies (Texas Society of Mammalogists, Texas Herp Society, etc) through the more traditional Environmental groups (Sierra club, Texas Audubon, etc), as well as some University folks

The actual list of those invited to participate that actually showed regularly was much smaller -

basically those organizaitons that had staffers within the beltway (e.g. Sierra Club, Texas Nature Conservancy, Texas Audubon, etc), Doug Slack from Texas A&M, and myself.

Most of those groups had their own focus, and herps weren't it, but if you don't think that I was pushing for things while I was on that committee then you don't know me very well. I may not have been involved in the sort of histrionics that some on here think is the "best way to effect change" (because politicians and bureaucrats don't really listen to such folks) but I can assure you that I was pushing for a re-evaluation of the state's T&E list (with the intent of adding some, cutting others), and to codify making gasing snake dens illegal under TPWD code, and to protect box turtles statewide.

However, much of our time was spent deciding where funding would go in regards to the Conservation License Plate funds, then putting together the State's Comprehensive Wildlife Plan, etc. My stuff was to be discussed after that. Then Herron left, the department re-shuffled the Nongame division, the makeup of the Wildlife Diversity Committee was changed to have less of an academic prescence and more of a landowner presence (we invited them in the first place!?), and I don't know what they've got going any more.

Troy

Posted by: JohnOH at Sat Sep 2 12:48:38 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I'm not sure how Lacey Act would apply here, Tanks, since it covers interstate transportation.

read my post carefully, if you take a rattlesnake out of the state, sell it across state lines without a permit, this could possible be a lacey act. my point was several people will pick up a rattlesnake for a friend take it to them (out of state) collect 20 bucks for there gas or time this can be a problem. my point was just give it to them & safe your self the heart ache

Who cares if the government thinks they should be able to come into your house and inspect whatever you may have, herp or not? After all, if you're not doing anything illegal, you have nothing to worry about, right?

keep in mind tp&w couldnt give a crap about snakes, they are just like any other agency they are a huge money machine. i want my money spent on specific studies on reptile species.

I'd like to see a separate herp permit/stamp, if for no other reason to better track what sort of economic and ecological impact we're having in the state. Plus, it would make it easier to collect data (sort of like HIP certification for birds; plus, I've seen where identification of a subset of sportsmen in other states enabled various researchers to conduct surveys to gain info on particular species).

A TP&W biologist told me a few years back that they're not too worried about the roundups because, as disgusting as some people find them, they don't pose as big a threat to the state's rattlesnake population as you'd think at first glance. I'm sure more atrox get run over or outright "hate crime" killed annually than are taken at the roundups. It's the unethical tactics of some that is the problem (gassing burrows etc even though it's illegal).

if your doing this for a friend just give them the animal, it just looks better that way.

I've offered to reimburse shipping ONLY for San Diego banded geckos from friends (explicitly stating I won't pay for the animals), but haven't had to put it into practice yet--the only specimens I have were given to me by someone who drove all the way to TX for me (and to herp).

>>ok troy now comes the pissing match, people like to say the game wardens can search for game animals, this is whats in parks & wildlife code so they believe it to be true.

The real problem is that there is a difference in interpretation of the law between herpers and LE, and even between individual herpers and individual wardens. It's neither of our jobs to interpret the law (that's what the proverbial 2am call to the JoP is for), but then again the laws shouldn't be so vague as to be open to erroneous interpretation in the field (I think they're written that way to keep lawyers in business).

now as you said in your post, it does say game animal, a snake is not a game animal or even considered an animal in the code or in case laws. an animal is a fur bearing animal in case law.

Correct--snakes are "wildlife resources" (read: hatband!) as are many other biological animals.

>>ever since then we got along much better, & we where always much more cordial to one another, i actually looked forward to chit chatting with him after that. i often would carry a copy of the supreme courts ruling with me for those types of stops.

That's another document I would find useful for my site.

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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

it is not interpretation, that has already been done time & time again by the courts, i am referring to case laws that i have read & am merely just replaying what they had determined & am not arguing my opinion.