Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In reading your post about color change (in another question)you mentioned the diet of the Dumeril's prey and also UV light possibly being a factor in color.

I'm a new Dum owner, and plan on obtaining more of these amazing creatures. I am raising my own rats and would appreciate your suggestions as to what I would feed my rats to supplement their normal diet of grains & food blocks. What kind of "dark" greens are you referring to? Also regarding UV light; do you recommend putting a light inside the cage? Would a light with 2% UVB work or should I just go with a good quality full spectrum flourescent?

For years people have known that brightly colored animals tens to loose there color in captivity. For example flamingos in zoos turn white and loose their pink. So it was found that the pink color comes from the shrimp they eat in the wild, the same for red-factor canaries, tropical fish and others. Most fish food is high in pigmints, red-factor canaries are supplemented with a chile pepper extract as are flamingos. Dull or poor colored animals become brighter or gain color from foods rich in pigments, flavinoids and x-tenes such as carotene.

Foods fresh or dried that contain bright dark color, such as carrots, beets, yellow corn any color of pepper, spinach and such make great additions to a rodents diet. "You are what you eat!" By default the snake that eats a rodent who has been fed such foods also gains from that rodents diet. Too many rodent breeder use cheep generic bulk dog food to feed their rodents. Some breeders use balanced lab rat chow. Even rodents feed this balanced diet will benefit from color supplements. And, in turn the snake that eats the rodents.

Both birds and reptiles have nucleated blood other animals have non-nucleated blood. By extrapolation much of what we know comes from the research done for birds. Florida's University at Gainsvill has long been a center for this type of reaearch. Both the poultry industry and the exotic pet bird industry, where big dollars are at stake, helped fund or foster research in birds. The pharmaceutical treatment of birds was found through the common bound of nucleated blood to also work well with snakes.

Unfortunately little direct research is done for snakes. as many more morphs drive snake prices up into the range of pet birds this may change.

The only support that I can think of is the studies done on birds and fish. Limited studies are found on lizards and other reptiles that support the necessity for UV light in reptiles that do not eat mammals. Phyto-pigments relation to color is well known in both birds, fish and to a limited extent lizards, but not much has been done for snakes.

The red dye liver relation is found in most animals studied including people, that is why DF&C Red dye #3 was outlawed in human food. These dyes are not the same as Phyto-pigments and cannot be compared. It is known that carotiodes can lead to vitamin A hyper-vitaminosis, which is marked by the overall carrot orange coloring of the victims skin. Continued exposure leads to pealing skin, loss of hair and other problems. Most problems occur when ingestion is chronic and in high doses. So, any thing can be bad when used wrong, even something as vital as vitamins.

As to the UV issue. UV is needed by non-mammal eating animals to convert elemental calcium to calcium-choleo lipids to choleclcferol vitamin D2 to Vitamin D3. Mammals can do this without UV light, but the process is increased with UV exposure [Sun-burned people get sun-poisoning, the likelihood of which is increased when say dary foods are eaten before the sun-burn. They get tired and have other problems.] So rodents being mammals and smakes that eat the rodents get the vitamin D. Lizards, frogs, turtles and the like, must have UV light provided or they get sick, grow dull colored or loose their colors.

Ask breeders of Emerald tree boas and pythons and they will tell you that sunning or providing UV light does intensify the colors. Snakes cannot close their eyes so limited exposure is recommended and if supplyed by UV bulbs use only the lower rated types. Once again if the rodents that are feed to the snakes are feed well then the need for supplemental UV may not be necessary?

I have noted that dull snakes that have skin trouble or shed poorly, lack energy and develop poorly defined scales, improve when supplyed UV light.

I am curious if there are any studies linking certain rodent diets to boid coloration? The only thing I am aware of is that red dye is a no no because it stores in the snakes liver. It is believed as well that snake skin reflects most UV light, and therefore the only improvement of coloration would be a person's view of a well lit snake Most color differences among species are purely genetic or stress related and generally shortlived.

Just my opinion!
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8.15 Normal ball pythons
2.0 Pastel ball pythons
1.0 Plains Garter
0.1 Normal Kenyan Sand Boa
1.1 Anery Kenyan Sand Boa
1.0 Mid-Baja Rosy Boa
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat
1.2 Dumeril's Boa
-----My list is too long, so I'll stop here!
*Amy*

Some how this posted in the wrong place, it should go here?

Both birds and reptiles have nucleated blood other animals have non-nucleated blood. By extrapolation much of what we know comes from the research done for birds. Florida's University at Gainsvill has long been a center for this type of reaearch. Both the poultry industry and the exotic pet bird industry, where big dollars are at stake, helped fund or foster research in birds. The pharmaceutical treatment of birds was found through the common bound of nucleated blood to also work well with snakes.

Unfortunately little direct research is done for snakes. as many more morphs drive snake prices up into the range of pet birds this may change.

The only support that I can think of is the studies done on birds and fish. Limited studies are found on lizards and other reptiles that support the necessity for UV light in reptiles that do not eat mammals. Phyto-pigments relation to color is well known in both birds, fish and to a limited extent lizards, but not much has been done for snakes.

The red dye liver relation is found in most animals studied including people, that is why DF&C Red dye #3 was outlawed in human food. These dyes are not the same as Phyto-pigments and cannot be compared. It is known that carotiodes can lead to vitamin A hyper-vitaminosis, which is marked by the overall carrot orange coloring of the victims skin. Continued exposure leads to pealing skin, loss of hair and other problems. Most problems occur when ingestion is chronic and in high doses. So, any thing can be bad when used wrong, even something as vital as vitamins.

I have a biology degree, and still was a bit confused on what you just posted Remember 99% of the people on this forum are going to have know idea what a phyto pigment is or care about nuceleated vs anucleated blood cells!

Stay with me...I am just trying to make sense of it all, I am not being disrespectful in the least! I am a scientist at heart and need more information to my questions:

1. Phyto pigment relates to plant pigments,and since snakes do not directly consume plants it would be unlikely that they would receive any second hand benefits from pigments consumed by rodents. This is especially true considering there have not been any studies (that I have found) that link plant pigments to coloration changes in the rodents themselves.
2. All reptiles (including birds), and amphibians have nucleated cells, mammals have nucleated cells in their bone marrow. Certainly, birds have a totally different more complex respiratory system and cardiovascular system than a snake. They are also endothermic (warm blooded) instead of exothermic (cold blooded)....so I'm not sure why "nucleated blood" would suggest that they would respond to UV in the same way especially since the nucleated blood cells mainly supply oxygen and from what I know (which isn't everything) does not relate to UV absorption in the least. Amphibians larva had a higher instance of deformity and death when exposed to UV and they have nucleated cells too!
3. I have no clue what a carotiode is! Carotinoids? Carotinoids are a pigment that are found in plants, algae and some bacteria. This pigment is responsible for the bright coloration of many plants. The condition caused by vitamin A toxicity is called hypervitaminosis A. It is caused by overconsumption of preformed vitamin A, not carotenoids. Vitamin A toxicity is relatively rare in humans. A high intake of provitamin A carotenoids can turn the skin yellow, but this is not considered dangerous to health of a human.
4. I believe the it is called FD&C Red #3 (food, drug,and cosmetic). Which is not outlawed in the US. It is still allowed to be used in foods, but not cosmetics or externally applied drugs (even though the dye caused thyroid tumors in rats, a human has a 1 in 100,000 chance of developing some sort of tumor in a 70 year period. The risk was too minimal for the FDA to pull the dye from foods). FD&C #2 was pulled in the US in the 70s but still is found in other countries such as Canada.
5. Flamingos are pink because of the food they eat (shrimp). This is due to the beta-carotene content. This is similar to a person having orange skin from eating too many carrots. More so, a Professor Wang at Tufts found that rats do not absorb beta-carotene the way humans do, nor do they store it in adipose (fat) and lung tissue.
6. My dumeril's are always hiding. I have yet to see them attempt to bask in anyway as the species is known for its ambush behavior (under the substrate with a nose peeking out). My dumeril's are very stressed when exposed with out a place to hide, and I doubt that if I provided UV that they would ever even experience it being hiden during the day. Emeralds are never hidden and therefore they are not a good comparison when considering UV use in dumeril's IMO!

Thanks for reading if you got this far! I'm sure I am just being to petty on the facts, but I am really curious, and so if anyone can comment on my statements in any way I would appreciate it!
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6.15 Normal ball pythons
2.0 Pastel ball pythons
1.0 Plains Garter
0.1 Normal Kenyan Sand Boa
1.1 Anery Kenyan Sand Boa
1.0 Mid-Baja Rosy Boa
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat
1.2 Dumeril's Boa
-----My list is too long, so I'll stop here!
*Amy*

Yes, everything you say is true, as far as I can tell.
I too am a professional; I am a medical doctor and hold degrees in a few disciplines. I have been breeding snakes since 1968, with the exception of the thirteen years I was at university. Even then I did keep a few snakes and lizards.

In the late 70’s my best ball python came down with a scale fungus and was shocked to learn that very little was known about the treatment of disease in snakes or most reptiles at the time. I did find out that if anyone knew how to treat my snake it would be found in the research being done at the University at Gainesville, school veterinary medicine. So I worked with the staff, which was then doing research into the treatment of disease in birds. Too many people had been complaining that the expensive exotic birds they had, when taken to the local vet, they were being told that these vets only new about farm live stock or dogs and cats. The University was pioneering research into bird care to fill this need.

What I found when work with them on my ball's problem was that reptiles and birds shared a common trait nucleated blood and the germs that infected birds were generally gram-negative and most of the germs that infected people and other animals were gram-positive. It was suggested that the pharmacology for birds may then work for snakes as well?
Alas, it was too late for my ball. Yet many of the other treatments for birds did in fact work for reptiles and much that we use today was first worked through for birds.

In my teens I was a quasi-professional herpetologist and was considering it as a profession. I was registered with the State as a research herpetologist and did field research with actual professionals and was allowed to work with teams in closed State parks doing field counts of snakes coming out of hibernation. Herpetologists, counted scales in regions of the snakes’body, did differential bone analyses of cranial structure and put specimens in jars of preservatives. Most of what was known at that time about snakes came from German work; even today the Germans have a strong body of work into the keeping of snakes. Yet very little documented research is available even today that supports the keeping of snakes and the treatment of their disease. Even today herpetologists do much the same. Little that we need as snake breeders comes from professional academic herpetlogists, other than taxonomy. So who do we believe?

Yes, UV light is a gray area in snakes, other reptiles need UV light due to their diet, and snakes get what other reptiles lack from the rodents they eat. So, snakes can live without UV light. Many of the breeders of tree boas and pythons that I know do sun their snakes. We breeders are way to busy with the basic care of our stock to waist time on something that has no value. UV light does intensify the color of lizards, how much it does affect snakes I do not know?

I do know that many diet manufactures for some reptiles, birds and fish do have color enhancing formulas. These formulas can have a dramatic effect on some animals. Just as snakes do not need UV light due to the animals they eat supplying what they need, they may also get some benefit from rodents feed diets high in supplements that support color?

When I get rodents from certain breeders [I am always looking for the best deals, we breed 54 types of snakes, so food costs are our biggest expense.] I have noted that some breeders produce rodents that make my snakes less vibrant and duller in color than other breeders. The best breeders advertise that they use high quality food and supplement the rodents’diets. I can say it works and there is a difference.

We Doctors use some treatments not approved for in humans. We do so because it works. Just because no trials have documented and have been approved yet, does not mean it cannot work. True, we must be very careful not to do something that will harm our patients and documented trials and approved uses does reduce the risks, yet experience and trial and error does play a role too. Just as you cannot believe everything in print, you cannot exclude everything that has not been academically supported too.

With very little time to devote to boards like this one, I apologize for the quick off the top of my head advice. My intent is to impart what I know and have learned and not to do the same diligence that I would when I publish and have the time to check the sources and spelling [spelling is a weak area for me; my mind works faster than my fingers]. I do believe what I have posted to be true in spirit and hope it may help others who have not been at this as long as I have. What works for one person may or may not work for everyone there are too many variables in husbandry for everything to work the same for everyone.

As I said in my post, I did not mean to be insulting in any way, I was just curious about some of the things you said. It appears that scientifically nothing has been shown regarding color changes in snakes in regards to diet or UV. That is where my interests lie. It is nice to hear are a doctor, and have been in the business for a while, but really that doesn't help answer my questions I never doubted you are an intelligent individual! I did have questions that it appears you cannot address or answer, so I will go elsewhere for them.

I breed my own rats and have been for years. I have used many different diets with my rats and every spring through fall they eat a high concentration of greens that I garden. Turnip greens are their favorites! I try to avoid excess vitamin C as it is not good for the males long term. I've only had one snake drastically change color (that was not ovulating haha) and it is the one snake I have not been able to get feeding.

So, for the first poster.....take it from some one who has been breeding rats for quite some time: feed them a well balanced diet. Do not feed cheap dog food that has loads of dyes in it, because it may negatively affect your snake. If you want to try a UV bulb in your enclosure, go for it! It will brighten the cage, but more than likely not your dumeril's as it will happily be hiding under the substrate

A professor once told me...."Don't ever stop asking questions, giving answers, and explaining your theories. Realize that every one thinks you are wrong, until you can prove you are right."
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6.15 Normal ball pythons
2.0 Pastel ball pythons
1.0 Plains Garter
0.1 Normal Kenyan Sand Boa
1.1 Anery Kenyan Sand Boa
1.0 Mid-Baja Rosy Boa
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat
1.2 Dumeril's Boa
-----My list is too long, so I'll stop here!
*Amy*