Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hybrid breeders are doing some amazing things and producing some incredible animals. However, all this excitement comes with some risk.

What steps are being taken to keep the "geenie" (hybrids) in the "bottle" (captivity) ?

Apparently, some herpers still believe that it's OK to release problem/excess/undesirable herps into the wild. This is evidenced by non-native herp populations being established in wild areas worldwide.

What happens when an unprincipled or uneducated breeder produces multiple clutches of some super snake that just happens to be to ugly to sale?

The simple solution, release them to the wild! Some breeders may not know or care about potential impact. Some may even think it will be "cool" to establish a new strain in the wild.

How many herp lovers will be willing to euthanize the herps they create but can't sell, feed or even give away?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating a halt to hybridization. My love of the herps you're producing is just tempered by concern over the risk.

PLEASE EASE MY FEARS BY TELLING ME HOW THESE RISK ARE BEING ADDRESSED.

Daryl

I haven't raised any hybrid snakelings myself yet, but I have heard that some breeders feed their undesirable hatchlings to kingsnakes. There are still some ugly (lol) hybrids being sold, but the price may be rather low to move them out. I certainly hope that nobody is releasing their hatchlings into the wild just for convenience sake. I have yet to hear anyone dumb enough to release hybrid snakes into the wild intentionally. Hopefully someone here will have more "inside info" that they are willing to share regarding the dispersal of hybrids that did not meet expectations.

>>Hybrid breeders are doing some amazing things and producing some incredible animals. However, all this excitement comes with some risk.
>>
>>What steps are being taken to keep the "geenie" (hybrids) in the "bottle" (captivity) ?
>>
>>Apparently, some herpers still believe that it's OK to release problem/excess/undesirable herps into the wild. This is evidenced by non-native herp populations being established in wild areas worldwide.
>>
>>What happens when an unprincipled or uneducated breeder produces multiple clutches of some super snake that just happens to be to ugly to sale?
>>
>>The simple solution, release them to the wild! Some breeders may not know or care about potential impact. Some may even think it will be "cool" to establish a new strain in the wild.
>>
>>How many herp lovers will be willing to euthanize the herps they create but can't sell, feed or even give away?
>>
>>Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating a halt to hybridization. My love of the herps you're producing is just tempered by concern over the risk.
>>
>>PLEASE EASE MY FEARS BY TELLING ME HOW THESE RISK ARE BEING ADDRESSED.
>>
>>Daryl
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

first let me say that their is a place in this hobby for those that agree and disagree with hybrids. second let me say that weather a animal is a hybrid or not if it is released it "could" cause damage to local animals. EXAMPLE: here in new york cornsnakes are not native, if one got out it is "possible" that it could mate with an eastern milk or black rat but it is not "probable". the chances that the animal will survive at all outside of captive care is very slim. most animals dont survive on their own after being captive. so the chances of them surviving and then reproducing in the wild and then causing damage to native species is just as bad if its "pure" or a "hybrid". so bring your arguement back when you have some actual facts not just opinions.
adam jeffery
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hybrid breeders association
0.0.32 baby corns
2 leo eggs-due sept
0.1. normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0. snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0. amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
1.1 kenyan sand boas
0.1 mbk
0.1 albino nelsons
0.2 normal leo geckos
1.0 blizzard leo gecko
0.0.1 3 lined mud turtle

Posted by: farfrumugen at Sat Sep 2 13:39:46 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

first let me say that their is a place in this hobby for those that agree and disagree with hybrids. second let me say that weather a animal is a hybrid or not if it is released it "could" cause damage to local animals. EXAMPLE: here in new york cornsnakes are not native, if one got out it is "possible" that it could mate with an eastern milk or black rat but it is not "probable". the chances that the animal will survive at all outside of captive care is very slim. most animals dont survive on their own after being captive. so the chances of them surviving and then reproducing in the wild and then causing damage to native species is just as bad if its "pure" or a "hybrid". so bring your arguement back when you have some actual facts not just opinions.
adam jeffery
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I agree and I also subscribe to the thinking that if someone is "concerned" about hybrids released in wild - I couldnt care less about their concerns lol.

A friend of mine lives in CA they have found non native snakes yet that didnt "upset" anyone but if someone own a hybrid they have heart attacks over it lol.

Don't read too much into my original post!

I never meant to suggest that anyone has released hybrids or much less that any viable populations have been established. I merely pointed out that some individuals have released non-native herps into the wild and was stating my concerns and asking questions about the POTENTIAL that this could happen with hybrids.

Let me further state that I am a rank novice with little knowledge, but lots of questions.

However, it is a fact that non-native (NON-HYBRID) species of herps have established breeding populations (particularly in Florida). Honestly, I don't know the extent of their impact on native populations. I doubt anyone really does. But the problem (angain, with NON-HYBRIDS) is real.

My concern was prompted more by what I've read regarding "Hybrid Vigor". If hybrids do indeed tend to be healthier, faster growing, more reproductive, etc than either of the source species, then it seems reasonable that they would be more likely than most released captives to survive and thrive.

Again, I'm only asking hypothetical questions. I invite anyone to respond with facts or opinions to eliminate (or validate) my concerns.

Its true esp in Florida you have "established" non natives not sure about snakes but either way certainly can happen.
I dont think hybrids are a greater threat than non hybrids but do think all non natives if released are a threat .

I would imagine that some hybrids might fair worse than most non natives that could adapt to same enviroment but granted all are a problem if released just dont think hybrids more of a problem might even be "less".

There was a good show on National geographic channel while back someone posted about python vs alligator in Everglades if you didnt see it try to catch it its interesting .

I havent heard of any states that non native snakes are established but lizards-turtles are .

Don't discount the risk. Invasive species (herp and others) are already taking a toll on native species. To date, I'm not aware of this happening with hybrids. But, the possibility exists.

Check out this link http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/06/0603_040603_invasivespecies.html

Here's a couple of quotes from the above link:

"The pythons are now most certainly breeding in the park. They have been found eating gray squirrels, possums, black rats, and house wrens. Perhaps even more worrying, the pythons may be preying on native mangrove fox squirrels and wood storks. And they could be competing with the eastern indigo snake for both prey and space. The eastern indigo snake is listed as threatened by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service."

""Once these invasive species are established, they are virtually impossible to eradicate," said Ken Burton, a spokesman at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. "In most cases we can only hope to control them." "

Again, no hybrid mentioned, just an example of the risk.

BTW, I think normal pythons are a far greater threat (in the US)as an invasive species than hybrid colubrids. After all, hybrid colubrids are at least related to native species and their genetic impact would likely be diluted by breeding back to their native counter parts.
National Geographic article on invasive pythons

I too, read the article where they have examined the stomach contents of the invasive burmese pythons here in the Florida Everglades and found, of course, they are feeding on local critters. What I don't see mentioned is how many baby burmese pythons end up in the stomach contnts of our big Brooks Kings
and Indigo snakes. I'm sure burmese eggs are preyed upon by skunks and raccoons, and some of the big ones are ending up as gator chow. I predict a cottage industry will pop up in harvesting python hides as a side line to the already present gator poachers (legal and other). The Burmese still has a long
way to go to become established in numbers, I would think.
Of far greater concern is the giant pouch rat that is found down in the Florida Keys. This thing is basically a hurricane debris truck ride up to a Dade County landfill from becoming established in the Florida Everglades and beyond. Big threat to agriculture and much more here. Look into that sometime.
I think you are a troll to bring this up in the Hybrid Forum, but you did break up the boredom here a little bit, I'll give you credit for that!

I don't think I've ever been called a "troll" before.

I'll take it as a complement (LOL).

Seriously, I'm just trying to spur thought and "troll" for the opinions of experts.

BTW, I really enjoyed your reply. Your are correct that many non-herp invasives pose a much greater environmental hazard than herps (normal or hybrid). People are just more likely to react to a 15' python than a 1" snail. It is also interesting to consider your point that some native species may benefit at the expense the invasives. I've never heard that side of the equation.

I am sure that has happened or will happen and in some warm states they will reproduce with natives.

Nothing anyone can actually do . Even non hybrids released in wild can reproduce with other pure natives like different types of Kings in Florida ,ETC .

I know they have found hybrid turtles which I thought was rather rare . Great looking to .

if released or escaped,Here in Florida the Mambas and the Burms will probably get em.lol
i in no wat advocate the release of any captive and/or non endemic

I've enjoyed all of your responses. However, some seemed to over-react a bit. After all, I was asking questions about common concerns and giving an opportunity for the experts to respond to or debunk those concerns.

Let me also clarify that I NEVER meant to imply that any hybrid herps have been released or escaped to the wild. I have no such info. The wild hybrids (mostly turtles) that some have mentioned probably resulted from released non-native normals breeding with natives.

Anyway, I've been thinking about this alot since my original post. I have just about convinced myself that "hybrids" pose a MUCH LESS SERIOUS RISK than "normals" of becoming harmfully invasive. Below is a summary of some factors comparing potential invasive risk of hybrid vs non-native normal herps. These are just my personal assumptions. Please critique, debunk, or add to this list at your leisure.

RISKS OF INTRODUCTION TO THE WILD:

RELEASE BY OVERWHELMED HERP OWNERS: Most commonly due to excessive size, feeding difficulty or aggressiveness. Normals are more likely to be released for these reasons. From what I've read on this forum, hybrids tend to be easier to feed, less aggressive and somewhat smaller (at least the boids -didn't HEH say that?) than their source species.

ESCAPE: So far at least, hybrids tend to be more high-end and are therefore probably kept by more experienced and responsible collectors. Hence, normals would be more likely to escape.

DELIBERATE RELEASE BY EXPERIMENTAL IDIOTS: Do you think any herpers are stupid enough to intentionally attempt to establish a wild population? I would bet money that some novices would be that dumb. However, it seems that breeding hybrids requires considerable knowledge and experience. Hopefully, that means that hybrid breeders (the only ones with sufficient numbers of animals to have any potential impact) would be very unlikely to attempt such a venture.

SURVIVABILITY FACTORS:

BENEFICIAL COLORATION/PATTERN: The hybrids I've seen are pretty extreme and not likely to last long in the wild. After all, a neon orange snake would have a hard time hiding from predators or prey.

ADAPTABILITY: This is the only factor (IMO) that suggest hybrids could pose a greater risk of becoming invasive. Most captives would adapt poorly to the wild. Especially if released into a difficult climate. However, the often mentioned "Hybrid Vigor" MAY tend to give hybrids an edge at wild survival.

GENETIC IMPACT: If established, non-native normals would tend to retain their genetic make-up. It seems to me that they would be unlikely to hybridize with natives. Instead they would compete directly against natives. However, hybrids would likely breed back with one, both or all of their native source species (assuming one or more is native). I would expect that their genetic impact would be diluted with each successive generation.

I’m going to try to give you a little food for thought because I think it is important that we sometimes remind ourselves about this bigger picture from time to time. Hybrids are not the genie; it is really our feeling about hybrids that is represented as the genie.

When it really comes down to it, it is nothing more then specism and sentimentalism driven by our own intellectual egocentrism that creates the mythical genie that concerns so many people. Nature does not judge its inhabitants like we do it does not separate the pure from the impure or the native from the invasive all that matters to nature is that these creatures are environmentally and reproductively viable and that its inhabitants are able to performs their function within this larger picture. If an animal cannot or does not find a niche then they are removed from this picture. It is a hash truth from a much hasher world and it is hard for many of us to understand that nature cares more about the function then the genetic makeup of animal or the locality from which it came. If it has potential then nature will accept it into its folds so who are we to say it does not belong.

Having said that I would not say any captive snake should be released back into the wilds of the world (with exception to special release programs). However not to many people ever stop and think that if a escapee or released animal survives the riggers of the world then perhaps it was meant to be.

Now to correct a few things, in your summery; especially concerning that wonderful thing called Hybrid Vigor. Hybrid Vigor is also called heterozygote advantage and even sometimes outbreeding enhancement. Genetically speaking this state happens only in a small percentage of the total genes of the animal i.e. were talking about a scale of less then 1% of total and even then it does not always happen. Technically it means that that the small percentage of normally homozygous genes in an animal are expressed as hets. So over generations of pairing back to either parent species they will lose that small advantage. Secondly not all hybrids will show as hybrid vigor they could also show outbreeding depression which happens when there are incompatible het gene pairings. Outbreeding depression can go unnoticed in captivity do to the slightly more sterile conditions but in nature any weakness can be exploited. Do to the nature of genetics it can affect anything from disease or parasite resistance to the hormonal responses generated from seasonal stimuli. So this effect can really express it self as both an advantage and disadvantage. Secondly this also minimizes the genetic impact that could be caused by a hybrid as nature will cull out by natural means what does not work and then will make good use of the genetic information that does work.

To continue the overall genetic fitness of the animals also depends on the genetic diversity that is maintained in their populations so when an animal from one locality enters the locality of another they bring with it new genetic diversity into the population. This can be a godsend to populations in decline because of our own non-green habitation expansions. So when an once captive animal such as say a Cornsnake from one part of the country gets out into the local population of Cornsnakes from another part of the country it is not necessarily a bad thing so long as that animal is relatively healthy. This is also true for hybrids any deleterious genetic conditions introduced will be culled by the environment and those remaining survivors will join the local populations who will with out a second thought use any genetic advantage possessed by those survivors.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

Wow. This is so much more of an answer to my questions/concerns than I ever expected. I've read your response three times and gain a little more perspective each time.

You not only helped ease my concerns about potential invasive hybrids. You are also forcing me to reconsider my underlying assumption that changes to natures status quo are inherently negative.

I'm uncomfortable with your point that nature choses organisms that work, regardless of origin, "purity" or detriment to other organisms. However, your correctness on this point is self-evident. I cannot find a single non-egocentric arguement against it. Afterall, who can argue with Mother Nature?

I guess my only remaining point is that humans, as the sole sentient species on Earth, have some basic responsibility to exercise caution. The responses from this forum convince me that hybrid breeders in general are probably a little better at this than the general population.

Time for me to find something else to worry about.

Sentience is a funny thing it is both a great gift and a great curse. With out it we would not know if the world was a better place but even with it we often forget to try to make the world any better. Every action we take in this world has repercussions but with out some type of predestination none of them are inherently positive or negative. Instead for us at least what makes it one or the other is how we choose to go on from that point.

If you want something else to worry about try habitat degradation and global warming. These are the two biggest problems that the natural world has to deal with right now.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

Global Warming?? Are you really buying into that?? LOL

Not sure how anyone could deny the reality of Global Warming.

The legitimate questions are:

1) What percentage of warming is caused by man vs natural. I think it's overwhelming natural but man may be tipping the scale (straw the breaks the camels back).

2) How accurate/reliable are the forecast of continued warming. I am skeptical of any long range predictions.

3) What is the cost/benefit analysis of the various proposals to stop/slow global warming. Seems most proposals are driven more by political agendas than cost/benefit. Kyoto focuses on almost exclusively on restricting the developed nations despite the probability that the real serious future increase in emissions will be from the developing nations.

Termites release 1000% more Greenhouse Gases than Humans. There is no evidence that Global Warming is fact, many "Scientists" predicted a mini-Ice Age only 20 years ago.

Dude, what part of “fossil fuel” don’t you get? The huge deposits of oil are the rich organic results of millions of years of ancient forests being pressed into an “ooze”. What took millions of years to concentrate is being blown up into the present atmosphere. It is all going full circle, from the earth and back, but the acceleration of this part of the process is completely lopsided. We are pumping those millions of years of carbon dioxide into our atmosphere in what is the blink of an eye in history. It is said that from space the earth’s atmosphere is like the skin on an apple. There is absolute proof that the glaciers are melting at a rate never seen in history that can be determined by science. Does that mean the world is coming to an end? NO. There could be an event like a volcano that could put enough dust into this very thin atmosphere of ours to cool the planet just as much. But if that makes sense to you, why bury your head in the sand about the warming? I don’t get the denial.

Well...thanks for the rhetoric and absolutely no proof. What happenned to the Ozone layer??? Healing itself, dont hear the alarmists bring that one up much anymore...Less hurricanes this year than in the last 10 years, I thought that the Global Warming was supposed to increase violent weather???

Dont believe everything that Al Gore makes up in his Mockumentary...maybe think for yourself and do a little research on your own.

What are you kidding me even Pat Robertson is on board with global warming now? I hope you realize that the ozone is only healing itself because people realized it was being depleted and did something about it.

What kind of proof do you need?

Global temperature rise:

Glacier Ice melting:

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3922579.stm
www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1938132,00.html
www.worldwatch.org/node/1673

BTW - Global warming was in the news and science journals long before Al made is video.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/09/07/climate.change.reut/index.html
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

LOL...maybe research your sources. Thomas is a known crackpot, from the HIGHLY (sarcastic) regarded University of York.

I can give you the names of over 100 scientists from MAJOR universities that believe that Global Warming theory has no credence at all.

The sooner you realize that the idiots that scream "Danger" get all of the attention and funding, the less sheep-like you will all be.

Cheers

Since you’re so adamant about your views maybe you should be the one proving to us that global warming isn’t happening. Where are your sources?
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

Posted by: aberlour at Fri Sep 8 14:34:17 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Since you’re so adamant about your views maybe you should be the one proving to us that global warming isn’t happening. Where are your sources?
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

Its impossible to show something isnt happening . Its like if I tell you to prove there is no such thing as Ghosts .
Its up to the person who believes to prove that is real .

The Global warming camp hasnt proved it . The temps changed with the Dinasours to . I slightly lean in Global warming but its not conmclusive.

You have had very hot yrs but also cooler than normal yrs .

I am not the one that brought up Global Warming in this thread, I responded to it. It is not my job or place to convince anybody to believe or not believe in Global Warming, Fairies, or the destruction of our world by Hybrids released into the wild.

I do not believe that this discussion even belongs on this forum, but I do encourage everybody not to believe everything they are told.

If I offended anybody, I am truly sorry. I am very well read on this subject and have studied the research that has been done, and if I came off as condescending, it was not my intention.

OK, back to Hybrids!!

Despite it being slightly off topic climate does affect the animals we come here to talk about and that is enough keep me interested in the topic at hand. Plus I don’t really see any harm in talking about this since it’s not going to keep anyone from posting other stuff if they want to.

Anyway, even though I suggest the burden of proof or disproof as the case maybe is on those who disbelieve also; I’m not asking you to convince anyone. All I’m asking for is some of your sources. Since you say you’re well read in the subject that should be too much to ask.

BTW - No Offence taken.
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Adam
Hybrid Breeders Association

So Stephen Hawking is an idiot???That's a new one.
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

Posted by: Origin_Reptiles at Fri Sep 8 14:11:35 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

LOL...maybe research your sources. Thomas is a known crackpot, from the HIGHLY (sarcastic) regarded University of York.

I can give you the names of over 100 scientists from MAJOR universities that believe that Global Warming theory has no credence at all.

The sooner you realize that the idiots that scream "Danger" get all of the attention and funding, the less sheep-like you will all be.

Cheers

There is proof granted not conclusive that Global warming is for real.
What I disagree with is that America is to blame as in truth its Latin America and Asia who are the biggest air-water polluters in the world .
I am no "sheep' otherwise would blame America for global warming as thats what PC sheep do but again there is some proof that Global warming is for real.

And I thought my original post got people steamed-up !

Aint debate fun!

Just remember to remain open to the opinions of others. I'd rather learn when I'm wrong (like I was in the assumptions behind my initial post in this thread). That way I can modify my position rather than hold on to an erroneous thinking long after the evidence has turned against me.

IMHO the jury is still out on global warming. I see valid points on both sides. Unfortunately, neither side seems willing to engage the other in open and honest debate.

It is sheer defiant ignorance to deny that global warming is happening. This has been happening since there were glaciers in North Carolina and the sea level was about three hundred feet below where it is now. What we are seeing is a very rapid acceleration of this very slow steady warming. There is no doubt about that.
The debate is how much of this can be directly attributed to the “greenhouse” effect from our use of fossil fuels. (Man’s fault) That is the only debatable issue. If you look into it, there are many attempts by industrialists to blame farting cows, forest fires, or anything other than our use of fossil fuels. Please look into the effect that resulted from the three day grounding of airlines after 9/11. The British journal Nature was able to conduct a study as a result of the unprecedented grounding of all commercial aircraft in the United States. They were able to find a correlation between the 14,000 high altitude jet vapor trails per day and the daily temperatures on earth. That is just one example. Our atmosphere (and our planet, for that matter) is not as vast as most would imagine it to be. I have not seen the Al Gore movie, but this has been going on for a long time now, this is not new stuff. Those arguing that there is a greenhouse gas issue use ice core drillings, NASA images, GPS measurements, photographs, migratory patterns, historical data, documented emissions, analysis, evidence, eye-witness accounts, temperature recordings, and silly stuff like that. I’m just sayin’...

check into, the ice caps on Mars appear to be melting as well. While it seems a warming trend is occuring, it may in fact not be restricted to Earth so......that makes "blame" difficult to assign as most protesters won't walk around with signs insisting that the sun sign a "cool down" treaty with the UN. I think, when you look at the millions of years of climate change vs. the miniscule amount of hard data that's been recorded theres no way anyone can draw any conclusions.....we just haven't been on this rock long enough. But that, just like everything else in an opinion...

and so we aren't completely off topic
CornPueblan X Jurassic Milk (Het & Amel)

Stunning, very nice indeed.

Thanks for sharing
.
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www.uk-hybrids.com

Great post. Very interesting point about Mars.

"STOP THE SUN NOW"

More importantly, AWESOME SNAKES. That first is sweet!

And conjecture. Hybrid breeders do not release "undesirable" animals into the wild for the same reasons locality breeders do not do it....to protech local populations from diseases they have no immunities to. I would like to know where you heard this fairy tale. Cite sources for this info or get off your soapbox.
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I fly upon wings made from nylon and string.

You should read more carefully before you post! You obviously weren't paying attention to my original post, much less my follow-up posts. I NEVER suggested that anyone had released hybrids. I even clarified this in subsequent posts. However, many herp keepers (probably not breeders) have released many herps to the wild. How else would Burmese Pythons be reproducing in the Everglades?

I was merely stating a concern that I have heard from others and asking questions. If you had paid attention, you would have seen that my follow-up posts detailed MY OWN REASONING that the concern was largely unfounded.

In truth, I was not even so much stating my personal concerns as I was trying to give a forum for hybrid breeders to address a common concern (or fairy tale as you call it) that I have heard from various locality breeders. The fact is, many people have this concern, founded or not.

I was frankly disappointed to see so many defensive reactions and so few thoughtful responses. In the end, I had to come to the defense of you hybrid breeders and debunk the concerns myself. Although Aberlour (Adam, Hybrid Breeders Association) followed-up with by far the best rationale for debunking this concern.

You (and others) would do well to learn from Adam and engage/debate your critics instead of just attacking them on impulse. Perhaps you should re-read this entire thread and take some notes.

NOW THAT WAS A SOAPBOX !!!

Hybrids could escape into the wild and contaminate wild populations.

This is certainly possible, but the same could be said for any escapee snake,most people who keep and breed snakes are breeding designer morphs, ie albino, hypo, and so on, we cannot keep bashing hybrids without being againest other breeding.The chances of a hybrid and morph snakes surviving in the wild is slim, remember that most are bred for unusual colours and patterns that would make that stand out to any preditor.Another thing to consider is that breeding hybrids is tricky, it's not easy to do, most cases you cannot just put to snakes together and breed them, same goes for any hybrid that escaped to the wild,it's highly unlikely. Even escapees in countries where the conditions are right for them they would probably perish and die before reproducing as there immune system would not be sufficient to survive.

Hybrids will get loose in the wild, either intentionally or on accident, or by acts of nature i.e. a hurricane.

But what is the surprise? Man has polluted his water, land, air,, started to destroy the ozone layer, started global warming at an un-natural rate. Northern Europe will probably be under ice in 50 years, causing a mass movement south. Then we will really see issues over the middle east.

If we took as much evert on important things in life as we do such topics as hybrids, we might be better off? Community involvement, our government,(just look at are our 2 best options each 4 years),,, our own families etc etc etc. And I'll admit, I'm as bad as any in most categories. So please to not point a finger at me, I have ten of my own I can use.

Since man has been able to think, he has caused problems. What a paradox. Thinking got us in trouble from eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge(THINKING). Yet, thinking is the only way to solve our self made and natural problems. I'm just glad it was Eve that ate the fruit first, meaning she was the first thinker. I can at least blame all this on the female of my species.

That is all!
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com