Reptile & Amphibian Forums

20 long X 4 wide X 12 high enclosure. Will post pics of it later on, just wanted to show these two getting along just fine on their first night together. The sulcatta's had it for about 2 months.

that is discusting. they only "get along" because that croc monitor is near death and the sulcatta has some serious pyramiding going on = protein dificiency. the sulcatta is also try to escape in that picture. figures.
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-Marshall
1.1.0 ball pythons
0.0.1 red ackie

Actually, I just got the monitor and I realize he is a little on the thin side, but that's not my fault, I will be fattening him up from his previous owners starvation practices. The sulcatta is not trying to escape, that is how he ALWAYS sleeps, ever since I got him, he likes to put his face in the corner where his head will be safe and go to sleep, and I don't know where you get the bad pyramiding idea from, he has slight raises, but NOWHERE NEAR other tortoises I have seen for sale here on kingsnake. I have consulted two zoos that have sulcattas as well as websites and have implemented a combination of their husbandry practices.

It doesnt help anyone to be so patronizing to another herp hobbyist. Everyone needs to learn a little Forum ettiquette, and give helpful suggestions rather than being so horribly rude.

Those animals are walking dead, we as experienced keepers who help many many others for years and years see this crap daily from new posters. Why should we show any respect to someone who has no respect for the animals they keep and tortures them this way? Why do we need forum ettiquette? The forum ettiquette is needed by new keepers that come here and post pics of half dead, dieing sickly animals but they are not wrong, they know it all.
Its hard to rspond without getting upset at such stupidity. Also no direspect was shown to this pperson, the disrespect was from his one responce. Maybe its because Im older than those who seem to think they are insulted when they are shown to be wrong or dont get the pat on the back they expect, but advice to save their animals lives instead, it ivolves effort, money, time, and attention to corretc, which they do not wish to provide.
From experience 99% of those who see insults in responces meant as help or advice seem to be kids or teenagers, why is that?

I am not offended, I TRULY do appreciate your help in this regards. However, I find it amazing how people can ascertain the health of my animals or the hospitality of the cage without further in-person examination while simultaneously deriving a multitude of certainties from a single infra-red blasted picture that portrayed a skinny monitor that I had JUST received and a sleeping tortoise. Could you, for instance, please tell me the distinction in physical characteristics which one could see in a picture similar to the one I posted between a sleeping tortoise and a dead one? Thanks much! Oh, by the way, they haven't killed eachother yet and the croc seems to climb all over the plastic netting canopy that I built for him that hangs 10 feet above the ground and sleeps in other small cozy hides that I HAVE added, thanks to the advice of a particular responder to this post, THANKS FOR THE INFO!!!

no disrespect, I agree with the rest of your post, but just so everyone is clear, pyramiding is usually caused by a lot of things, but never a protein deficiency. Actually it's the contrary. They need very little protein because too much protein will speed up their growth which is a big cause of pyramiding (along with lack of calcium and otherwise inadequate levels of vitamins and minerals in the diet, not too mention environmental conditions).

To be perfectly honest though, for a sulcatta that appears to have been raised primarily indoors, the pyramiding aint too bad. However, throwing a sickly monitor in with it is sure to be a death sentence for both of them. It's a shame.

No, its caused by long term dehydration.
Most indoor kept tortoise or turtles are kept in what? An aquarium with a screen lid and a high watt bulb, this creates dehydration, then results in pyramiding over time.
I saw a box turtle that demonstated this perfect, 12 years in captivity from hatching in a screen top aquarium, it looks like a sulcutta with too small of a shell, now tell me that its caused by too much protien, its not. In fact I know of sulcuttas that eat turtles hatchlings and other torts, dead turtles, frogs, toads, dead birds, and whatever protien sources they can find, but they look picture perfect, live outdoors most of the year, in a solid top cage over winter.
Its amazing how fast rumors and bad info from websites like the one that started that one get around as supposed truth.

sorry to burst your bubble. but your monitor doesnt look to good. salvadorii are large arboreal humid loving monitors. they are a big tree monitor kinda. housing it with a salcatta isnt the best husbandry (that tortoise is from aftica, the monitor is from indoniesia). seriously..... rethink your husbandry and ask some questions.

also hes skinny. you need to feed him more. i also think you should get alot better hides than that. but you might have better. i really hope you do. its just a pic. but a poor example of husbandry at that. i hope you can make your husbandry fit your monitors needs and not yours.

What kind of hides did you have in mind? I use plastic tubs like that with holes cut in them for all my snakes, but does a Croc monitor require something different? Also, I realize there is a vast humidity requirement discrepency between these two species, but I live in colorado where it is naturally only about 30-50 percent humidity max, so it is hard to keep up humidity in any kind of cage. This cage is HUGE, it's a greenhouse room built into the side of my house, the largest other cage I own is a 4X4X2 footer, and, knowing that croc monitors require a LOT of space and get stressed in small cages, I chose to utilitze the large volume of this cage at the expense of having to cage two separate species together. If I spray the soil down, the humidity will get to about 80 percent, so I will just have to mix it up to make each animal happy HALF of the time. People make attacks on here because some people don't adhere to the universally accepted BEST POSSIBLE CONDITIONS and think it's torture, but they would be surprised just how hearty reptiles are, my cages are clean, temp gradient, animals are fed very well, so I don't see the problem and I will let all of you know the instant either of them die from improper humidity levels.

He's obviously just posted to try and get a rise out of people.
Probably just stuck it in there for the picture. I mean, can anybody really be that stupid? ......... OK, I admit, that was a dumb question.

HATERS!!!! LOL! Chill out ya'll.

"so I will just have to mix it up to make each animal happy HALF of the time."

Why would you want to put any animal you own throught something like that? Do you really care about the animals or are they just to show off a bit? Any serious keeper would never had made a comment like that.

Unless you are just trolling around, which I hope you are, I'de say it would deffinatly be best for you to get rid of these animals.

From your comments, you deffinatly don't have the knowledge yet to care for them. Not saying you might not in the future, but you should have gotten it before you purchased the animals.

Your heart sounds like it's kinda in the right place, it's just that you don't have a clue on how to care for them right now. That should be your main goal if you do decide to keep them.

-Jeff

the plastic hides used to be the thing every one used. key word= "used". people have now realized that monitors (and all other reptiles) like tight hiding areas. they feel more secure. try info on hides at either at pro exotics (google it or its on kingsnake) or make a bunch of different ones. some of the ones you make and stick them in different temp gradients, then make a bunch that are really tight fitting ones out of wood, bark, anything (just make sure it wont crush your monitor). then place them in different temp ranges next to the ones you think are good and test to see what your monitor likes best. try it. what can it do but make your lizard happier? isnt that what you would want in keeping something? you would want your dog happy if you have one, why should a lizard not be allowed the same? try that and then i will (or some one better than me) will get back to you. work at it one step at a time. i just hope it will be suitable for it before it dies.

good luck. please try it. take most of these peoples words for the truth. they most likely have alot more experience (and better results). open your mind. you dont want to be a "hater" do you? they just feel bad for your monitor and so do i.

Wow!
Nice setup! Seriously this cages was made for the tort or the monitor?
You should add snakes and frogs to this enclosure.

Harpy eagle to eat the loose mice and a polar bear, in case some of the seals get outa hand.

Oh, a hummingbird too.

In reality, if this poster thinks this setup is fine, then all the advice in the world will not help. As you can see, if something does not happen quickly, the cage will be only for the tortise.

Oh by the way, the tort sleeps with its head in the corner because it really wants a burrow. But it cannot make one. Or some other tight shelter, but there is none that are suitable, so it does what it can, stick its head in a corner.

Also pyramiding is from being to dry, as in, no suitable burrows. If they have burrows, they do not pyramid. Its not about diet. Cheers

I alway's heard pyramidal tort was caused by diet with too much protein. It's not thrue?

no its not, its hydration related, also sucatas and leopards can be full grown in 18 month time, with good husbandry.
of couse the tort guys will argue this til death. hahaha

know more then the "monitor people" about tortoises.
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-Marshall
1.1.0 ball pythons
0.0.1 red ackie

Guezz Marshall are you having a bad day or something, first you go and answer for me. Son, you have no right to assume what I would say. Not in the least.

Then you say this. Your age is shining thru. First, I have a tort that I raised from a hatchling and its older then you. It was fed high protein(monkey chow) when young, and it grew like a week and its not pyramided in the least. The point is, Jobi has also had torts and turtles longer then you have been alive.

Combine that with the highly naive statement of insinuating Jobi or I are "monitor people" I have a feeling we both like monitors, but indeed are reptile people, first and foremost. In all reality I am a "snake guy" As I have worked with snakes for forty plus years. I do and have done work with snakes in both the field and in captivity.

So I would like you to understand, torts, live in burrows or rarely crevices. That is their home, much like your ackie, only torts suffer from dehydration because people forget they are no different then a monitor or snake. They commonly give them screen tops and commonly do not provide cover. The growth edges on the scales dry and become hardened and growth angles downward. Its very simple. Of course like with monitors, there are tons of false causes for this.

If your interested, try googling "Raparian farms" This fine keeper is an old zoo keeper and over the years has learned the cause of pyramiding independant of me. He happens to live in arizona too. The thing about Arizona is, its the desert and very dry, so we HAVE to learn about dehydration, because here its not a little problem, here is deadly. We also have wild torts and they LIVE IN BURRROWS much like monitors, only a bit more. These burrows must contain a certain level of humidity, a bit lower then for monitors, after all, its only common sense, torts have shells to protect them. But its only about degree, torts still live their lives constantly avoiding dehydration. Just like monitors, snakes, and other lizards. Cheers

n/p
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-Marshall
1.1.0 ball pythons
0.0.1 red ackie

Actually, if you feed animal protein to herbivorous tortoise or animals, they'll get kidney and liver damage from processing to much purine. Animals protein will shorten the life span of iguanas and tortoise and therefore, should never be offered to them. Animals protein is easily broken down compared to plant matter, and with teh hindgut fermentor like tortoise, the food just sits in the gut and too much excess purine is process in the liver causing early kindney and liver damage and untimely death. THis is well documented in the giant green iguanas and herbivorous tortoises. Even plant protein, not purine from animals matter, from alfalfa, wich is good for iguanas, will cause damage to tortoises, not to mention parymiding. Tortoise should be fed low protein, high fiber plants such as grass, timothy hay, etc... That's right not even plants with high plant protein is safe for tortoise, so you can imagine what that will do if you feed the poor tortoise animal protein like monkey biscuits to them.

I am sorry but all this stuff about proteins is erroneous, torts aren’t obligatory herbivores they are scavengers that will eat any meat they can get, free ranging sulcatas and leopard eat tones of land snails and carcases.

Iv been breeding torts and many turtles for decades, however all literature and information iv seen on them is false in many ways.

Like FR my torts grow like weeds no matter what I feed them, in fact most peoples would be shocked to see how I feed them.

Hydration is the key to herpetology, many still don’t have a clue on how to keep them.

Sorry but its your case I see!!

Not trying to insult you in anyway, but look at this thread, you will see a keeper of a single red ear arguing decades of experience, this is insulting to me and others in my position, you guys have the incredible advantage of the internet, we didn’t have this access to information. I still don’t understand why on earth you would argue such good information.

MOst sucessful breeder, if not all, feed them low protein, high fiber diet. This is even how the vet recommend them. Even the ominivorous aquatic turtles have trouble with growing too fast when large amount of protein is given; even the omnivorous turtles get parymiding when giving to much protein. This is well documented and it's not a theory.

What is documented and advised by vets is not necessarily accurate!

Keepers should rely more on common sense then what’s published, when I start working with unknown reptiles I do not follow care sheets or books or advise given by peoples on the net, I follow peoples known to have success, and even then I still try to improve.

Those who follow mediocre advise will have mediocre results, all iv seen to date on torts was mediocre, its no wonder they cant establish many species, the husbandry of torts is not acceptable, I would never keep them as advised in present times.

They need a choice of hydration and better choice of temperatures, they also need foods to sustain growth.

I don’t think you understand what I am saying here!
However if you start applying this to your reptiles eventually you will.

Completely false.
In fact I can point you to someone who has kept turtles, and torts for many many years, they are all omnivores, with some turtles being carnivores. In fact I believe there is a video of a sulcutta eating another tortoise and land dwelling turtles. Also a sulcutta that eats hatchling turtles, dead birds, etc etc, alot.
The comments you posted about pyramiding, and high protien diets, etc causing kidney, liver problems comes from a really bad website with alot of bad info on it, those are indeed dehydration problems, Ive seen many rescue torts kept in screen top cages with these problems, fed a herbivorous diet only.

By the way FR and Jobi are long time reptile keepers that have kept torts and turtles alot longer than most who post here have been alive or even a thought in their parents minds.
Try researching real keepers, not just websites or petstore turtle/tortoise books.

I, being now primarily a 'tortoise person' have been constantly told that the key to avoiding pyramiding is proper amounts of calcium and a low protein diet. I'm very interested to hear more of your first-hand experience with tortoises. I'm new to the hobby and would like to know any way possible to improve upon it.

BTW, what kind of tortoise are you speaking of that you raised from a hatchling?

Cheers

Here ya go bud! I love how two animals that have so much space that they hardly ever cross paths has turned into an entire zoo! Seriously, except for that one pic, I have not seen them within 5 feet of eachother all day today.

http://www.sulcata-station.org/pyramiding.html

If you give them a chance, they will never see each other again

Actually, parymiding is caused by too much protein in the plant that the tortoise eat, so they grow to fast. Tortoise should be fed low protein, high fiber plants such as grass, timothy hay, etc...to alow for slow but consistant growth. I have a turtle, a red-eared slider, and I try to feed him on the cautious side when it comes to things like fish, worms, crickets and meat, you know protein.

Alright, first things first, housing a monitor and a sulcata is just dumb, whoever thinks thats alright in its self, should not even own reptiles. Also your sulcata does not have the room to walk around hence its jamed in the corner.

About the sulcata eating protein and high amounts of it, learn how to keep a animal before getting it. A sulcata is not a monitor its a tortoise, there are very few tortoise that have protein in there diets, sulcata should eat grasses, weeds, and other forms of leafy GREENS. Yes its true in teh wild they will eat a dead bird or some protein, but thats very very rare, and protein should be fed very very little if at all. I dont know how you can even still keep animals, im surprised animal control has not come to your house yet. Try and DO RESearch, and maybe get some info on your monitor and tortoise, because you know nothing about them, NOTHING> you need to realize that they are animals and you need to be responsible for them. You need to be able to house them in the right enclsoure, and need to know there diet- And yes they do have differnt diets.

Hes probably a Kid that knows nothing about nothing, and probably wont even do any research, all i can say is this guy needs to realize that he is not a good owner and should just put them up for adoption. Easy way for him.

PS< your monitor is way way thin, obivously you dont feed your monitor a good diet either, your sulcata has pyramiding because of the proteine, i dont see either the monitor or the suclata living more then 5-10 years.