Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone,
Here are some pics of Daisy and Dozer, the turtles I am trying to hibernate this winter..... I took these pictures this afternoon.

This is Daisy... I was told she is an Eastern Box turtle, but she looks more like an Ornate to me... I could be wrong though. Opinions?

There is a better look at Daisy's shell.

Daisy hunting in the backyard.

This is Dozer, the little guy I took in after he was clipped by a careless person with a lawn mower.

Judging by the eye coloration, I guess that Dozer is a male... and that Daisy is a female... if anyone could confirm this by the pictures, that would be great!

This is a good shot of Dozer's scar from the lawn mower accident... it looks like its finally completely healed.

Dozer's shell.

The two of them in my back yard... she is quite larger than he is...

Judging by the photos, would any of you be able to determine their gender or approximate age? I received these turtles without a lot of information about their backgrounds, but I would love to learn as much as I can about them so I can provide them with the best care. Thanks in advance!

-Lisa

Beautiful!
I step out on a limb here and suggest that Daisy "might" be a 3 toe x Eastern cross. I noticed that she only has 3 toes and the high color is not uncommon in crosses. Lucky you!

However, I am no expert on this. She does not look like my ornate at all. They typically have dark shells with yellow markings.

The only way to know for sure if you have a male or a female is by the tail and vent openings. If the vent opening is outside the carapace edge when you are looking at the turtle bottom side up tail extended, then you have a male. If however the vent opening is between the edges of the plastron and the carapace you have a female.

So take a look and let us know.

Age is highly speculative, they do appear to be adults.

Sorry for the typos.
Here is a website about the various subspecies of boxies whith photos. You can browse the content pages which have a lot on proper care of box turtles.
http://www.boxturtlesite.org/eastern.html

You were right! They are both Eastern box turtles. Daisy is a female, and Dozer is a male. Daisy is exceptionally pretty. You got lucky, her shell is very colorful.

It is very difficult to determine the age of a box turtle. You can get a general idea based on the wear of the shell. Daisy has some wearing around the margins of her shell especially near her head. This is most likely due to mating advances from aggressive males. It's very common. Overall, though, her shell still has clear distinct growth rings. The shell smooths out with age, so I'm guessing that she's as little as 15 to as much as 30. Like I said, it's difficult to age turtles. The male looks to have more general wear and tear of the shell, but still looks on the young side (for a box turtle). I'm thinking late 20's to late 30's. This is all speculation, as it has proven to be quite a chore to track the longevity of wild box turtles. Put it this way, they're usually mature at 15 to 20 in the wild. Then, they've been known to live nearly a century!

Whatever you decide to do about brumating these turtles, I sure hope that you have breeding success. If Daisy has been wild, she will probably lay fertile eggs for several years even if Dozer doesn't mate with her. I bet her young would be gorgeous.

I hate to be a party-pooper, but you may want to check with the NJ wildlife people. To cover yourself, you may need a permit to have these turtles.

Good luck with them! Nice pics.

Daisy looks a lot like Goldie here, who will stay in her shell half of the day after I mess with her. I treated her for a dog attack, and she still hates me. Goldie is a lot older. I've had her for about 6 years now. Actually, the last time I posted this pic, I got accused of fabricating this shell. Two people emailed me...one said that I found the shell in the woods, empty...the other said that I took a deceased turtle's shell and painted it. I don't really care, but I'll take some more pictures to satisfy the peanut gallery. Do you see how smooth her shell is? That is a mark of advanced age.

Well she is beautiful too. It never ceases to amaze at the variety of color. On TT they posted a pic of a male with a blue, yes blue, throat! It also had a few green spots!

Nature is art work by God!

Thank you for all of your feedback! It's great to know that I have a pair of Easterns and that Daisy is such a nice specimen! I wasn't even positive she was an Eastern

When I originially thought I had a pair, I thought it would be very nice to have offspring from her. Unfortunately that lies entirely on Dozer. Prior to living with me, Daisy lived a solitary life in a pen in a friend's backyard. She was "inherited" through the tennants of the property for years so she never had any exposure to other turtles. I dont know where she initially came from, but I know she has been a solitary pet for at least the last 5 years. Dozer initially showed a lot of interest in her, but he hasn't been quite so amorous since the temperature has dropped - maybe a good thing since I am not sure what I would do with the resulting baby turtles as of yet!

I want to thank you again for all the information you have shared with me... The picture you posted of Goldie is gorgeous! I wish I could get my turtles' shells to look so glossy!

Just for fun, here's a few pics of my box turtle yearling, Magnum:

These were taken January of this year....

-Lisa

to me they both look like red eye female?? Dozer doesn't have very manly nails but I can't see his plastron nor his tail so??
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They are both easterns, but I would guess that Daisy is actually quite old.

Any way we could see photos of plastron views?
That would certainly help with sexing, and based on wear of the plastron, perhaps at least get an idea if the turtles are on the young side or are older.

This is Daisy's underside - no pics of Dozer's underbelly yet.

Ahh, I see the four toes now. You'll probably need someone to hold her for you so that you can have her tail extended while you take a photo. Or you hold her with tail extended, to the where the vent opening is, and have someone else take the photo.

I have to agree with Kensopher about the sex, and they are a pair. "Daisy" looks a lot like my eastern, NJ adult female, "Penny".
My other female has the reddish eyes. However, the body color is more colorful on "Dozer" like many NJ males. The shell shape is also more "domed" on females, slightly flatter (esp. towards the back) in males.
I don't know if you have the NJ permit. It is $10.00 per year. You can get a permit application from most pet stores, possibly online also. Great looking pair!!

Glad to hear that almost everyone seems to agree on their gender and species! I have done some research on the internet concerning ownership of these turtles in NJ and so far I havent come up with any information on licensing. I actually asked a friend who works at a local pet shop, and I was told that she thinks it might be illegal to keep them in this state. Could you tell me where you obtained your license so I could do the same? Thanks!

It is illegal to take them from the wild (as it should be!!).
However, it is perfectly legal to own them as long as you have the permit. I think most reptiles require permits, as well as many birds and mammals. Fish and wildlife will request information on where you obtained the box turtles from, so you will have to supply that information. Since she was a former pet, for several years, abandoned at the apt. complex, I think you will be ok. You may have to put the contact of the person you received them from.
I forget all of the details, but it also asks information on what you feed them, you veterinarian, and your housing. It is currently a $10.00 annual fee, and at the end of the year they will send you a reminder to apply for the next year.

Thanks for posting the photo.

Now that I see how much wear she has on her plastron among other things, I will say that my guess is that she is a much older turtle, and not a young one at all.

Just my guess.

Steph,
Y'all must really pamper your turtles where you live! To even be able to see ANY growth rings on plastronal scutes is a mark of a young turtle down South here. By young, I mean less than 30.

Seriously, though, the age of a turtle can't be estimated based on scratches, dings, scars, and such. You want to look at the overall "smoothness" of the shell. You can see that her growth rings from younger days are starting to wear, but the most recent growth rings are still very prominent. Plus, the edges of her carapace and plastron are still "sharp". They round out with age, and the last millimeter or so that appears almost clear is absent in an older turtle. I'll have to post some pics of the real ancient beasts we get down here. They're as smooth as a baby's bottom. I guess I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where they can still reach these old ages. Come to think of it, I don't remember seeing the "old smoothies" very often in NJ.

Ken, Ken, Ken...

I'm in Virginia, which, last time I checked, was still in the South.

Actually, I'm looking at something else on her plastron besides scratches and dings and smoothness and countable rings, etc.

Something which indicates that Daisy is an older girl, much like your Goldie.

I'll let you figure out what I'm talking about.

I have a senior citizen male eastern box turtle here, Mr. Gower, that shares both a carapace and plastron 'feature' or 'characteristic' (for lack of a better term: it's late, I'm tired) with Daisy, and we figure he's about 75, give or take five years or so.

So I'll stick to my opinion that Daisy is an older gal.

I know where you are, but I'm further South. Nyah Nyah! I was being facetious.

P.S. I can't figure it out. I'm very simple. Just tell me.

OOOh, somebody's gwouchy when they're tiiiiyyyeeeerrrddd.

Just kidding, I value your input Steph. You know this. I know that you work very closely with some true experts. My knowledge is more experiencial and less scholastic. I made it very clear as to the subjectivity of this matter, as you did, and as Mr./Mrs. Glas pointed out.

Not so much grouchy as abbreviated, which I know can leave the impression of my having set a life long pattern when I flunked 'congeniality' in kindergarten.

I think I will need some visual aides to accompany any narrative, so be patient while I gather photographic evidence.

In other words, it will take me a while to put together a response which will illustrate what I'm talking about.

Goodness, you're really not kidding around! Will there be a test at the end? Does spelling count?

I hope spelling doesn't count. I'm dyslexic.

Can I get the Cliff Notes version to study before the test?
: )

" I'm guessing that she's as little as 15 to as much as 30. Like I said, it's difficult to age turtles. The male looks to have more general wear and tear of the shell, but still looks on the young side (for a box turtle). I'm thinking late 20's to late 30's. This is all speculation, as it has proven to be quite a chore to track the longevity of wild box turtles."

ken, I agree with you that your determination is quite speculative! And I 'd have to agree with Steph that the boxie is considerably older. And I'm from the SOUTH. We do have a larger older population of wild box turtles down here. Ya joysey boys really must take more time pondering before ya jump!
Petri

Tell me WHY you agree with Steph.

Mr Sopher,
You'll need to look carefully at the quality of her shell, carapace and plastron.
Having a shiny shell can be a boxy of 40 years or one that is 90 years. That's a margin of fifty years. A mature Box Turtle that grows slowly usually doesn't outgrow scratches, pits, or chipped off pieces quickly. So older Box Turtles, especially in the wild, have more stressed shells. The box turtle in question had severe plastron damage in the area below the hinge on the right abdominal scute. The damage had clearly extended through the scutes and down to the hypo-plastron bone. Also, there was further damage to the inter-abdominal seam down to the bony plate as evidenced by the formation of small new ventral scutes that had formed to replace the missing plastron. In addition, the original plastron abdominal scutes on both the right and left sides have decomposed or rotted away and have been replaced by new scutes emerging underneath. These processes didn't' occur overnight; but in wild box turtles over many, many decades. A box turtles shell has subtle to acute changes in color, wear, and size, all indicative of age factors. These can vary tremendously among individuals and one has to take into account the environment, weather conditions, exposure, etc. All the research on box turtle age determination denounce trying to speculate age on a look after the juvenile stage.. Accurate age determination is determined by dissection of the thigh bone; so on living boxies basing age on seeing rings or shiny shells is not a valid scientific method. So IMHO I believe this boxie is older.
Petri

OK, what do you see that makes you think the turtle is old?

Thanks!

>>Thanks for posting the photo.
>>
>>Now that I see how much wear she has on her plastron among other things, I will say that my guess is that she is a much older turtle, and not a young one at all.
>>
>>Just my guess.

It is said that guessing the age of a box turtle based on the growth ring count is just that - a guess at best. You can be "off" by as much as 25-50% due to how the shell ages over time as it is worn down by the natural elements or not worn down by being kept indoors mostly.

On the surface, IMHO...

Dozer is young guy...20'something maybe.

Daisy is an older woman... 40-50'something (*possibly* older if the shell is well preserved so to speak).

Dozer has next to no wear on his shell whereas there is quite a bit of noticable wear on the growth rings on daisy, but not worn completely smooth.. you still have some noticable rings, but you can also see faint traces where some rings had once been but are not totally eradicated yet.

I have seen a box turtle that was over 70 years old and the shell was worn completely smooth.. not a single growth ring left on it. The person had this turtle for over 40 years as a pet and he was already full grown when they originally found it so assumed was about 30 years old back then. The turtle was kept outdoors in a fenced in yard so was exposed to natural aging of the shell over the years.
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PHWyvern

"Daisy is an older woman... 40-50'something (*possibly* older if the shell is well preserved so to speak)."

What delicate chivalry!

Stephanie