Reptile & Amphibian Forums

can i keep a milksnake in a tank that has reptile sand or calci-sand for bedding?

In my opinion sand and Calci Sand is NOT safe. Just go with newspaper.. it's cheap and very easy to clean up. If you want a more natural looking sub then use indoor outdoor carpeting....

~ Mike Russo

Mike Russo,
Why would sand be a bad substrate? I happen to live in the SANDhills of Nebraska and we have milk snakes that thrive here. What is wrong with trying to keep a snake in setup that is similar to it's natural habitat instead of in a platic container with newspaper, especially if you are willing to put in the time and effort to keep the enclosure clean and the snake healthy?

Sand is not absorbant in the same way that traditional substrate and newspaper are. It is easily swallowed and that can be bad. In the wild a snake has many choices as where to go. In a cage you are limiting his choices and mobility. So it's best to pick what serves him best.
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Steve W.

I feel that sand is a poor choice for substrate because i just sat through a 2 hour lecture given by one of the top Herp vets in NY state who told us that 90% of his reptile impacttions were due to sand, Calci-Sand & corn cob bedding... he also showed us about 100 slides of the substrates being surgically removed from the stomachs of several snakes and lizards.. and told us that Cali sand should NEVER be used with herps..

So that is why in my opinion sand is NOT a good choice..

But, if you would like to give it a try.. go right ahead.. Also, i use newspaper because with 40 snakes to clean it makes it MUCH easier to clean..

~ Mike Russo

i just re-read my response to you and realized that i sounded a bit snotty... i am sorry about that, i did not mean to..

~ Mike Russo

Mike,

thanks for the reply and insight, and absolutely there is no reason to appologize. communication via emails and bbs can always be taken the wrong way, but unless it is a personal attack then no worries. I am researching everything I can before getting a milk snake. Most of all I would like to make a set up that is healthy for the snake, while also appealing to look at. You and Steve have given some good reasons not to use sand. I really do live in an area of the country where the soil is 100% sand (central Neb)and the Pale milk snake is found here, was hoping to utilize local resources to make up the vivarium. Obviously I have a lot to learn, and this seems like a great place to start.

Keep in mind that putting sand in say a 10 gal tank is not a natural setup to an animal found in the Sand Hills. There are many factors that make the wild snakes' habitat suitable to them.

The real goal in herp keeping should be IMO to provide the snake with the things it needs, namely temps, moisture, and an environment that suits its way of life while using materials that aren't toxic, even if very artificial, and doing this in a way that makes you the keeper able to keep the cage clean. For a milksnake that may be a burrowable substrate that may or may not look like what it needs in nature, as long as it performs in a similar fashion.

Using real substrate from the Sand Hills may be better than using playsand. But if the depth isn't what the snake likes or the moisture level (gradient) isn't suitable, then even the natural substrate may not be any better than something non-natural but has the properties that in a cage benefits the snake. That is why you see people use something like aspen that is completely foreign to milksnakes (they don't live in aspen shavings in nature) but works in certain cage setups, is easy to clean, allows the snakes to burrow and keeps the cage weight down compared to sand.

As far as impactions goes, for some reason, wild snakes have no problems. That may not always be true in captivity. Why? Don't know for sure, except that again, our cages are not real representations of conditions in nature. Putting a piece of driftwood in a cage doesn't make it natural.

The search for the best substrate will always go on, and there are always compromises.

I think the best substrate out there for milks and kings is the ground coconut fibers (e.g. Eco Earth), but it is messy for the keeper. I think it is worth it;hatchlings thrive in the stuff when offered a moist area, and they will stay buried in it most of the time, eat well, and their skin tone is fantastic because the of the hydration.

markg,

very good post with great points and information, thanks.
I do live in the sandhills and thought I could re-create a "natural" setup with local habitat resources. That as you pointed out may not be the best idea, as the sandhills are really just that, pure sand. There are quite a few web pages that show this, especially if you google cherry county pale milksnakes. I will continue to research this and make sure I have a safe set up before I get the snake. Thanks to all for the information and suggestions.

Thanks Frank.

Don't let me discourage you. Experiment for yourself. Go ahead and try the Sand Hills sand if you like and see how it works. You won't hurt the snake. You may find a great formula for the snake in question, and you may find out what the snake prefers in the process.

If you have impaction concerns, simply feed the snake in a clean, no substrate container.

Adding a container of moist sphagnum or EcoEarth/Bed-a-Beast to the cage may be a good idea too. See where the snake spends time. You will gain good info.

My guess is that you will find the sand not any better than less weighty, easier substrates. But feel free to prove me wrong. I welcome learning.

Notice I didn't say Cedar...

Cypress is not an aromatic wood, so no problems with phenols.

A huge bag from the Home Depot or Lowes lasts forever, and I just mist and change it regularly.

My Jalisco Milk does great in it. He's an '05 and is growing nicely.

It took me a while to figure the best way to feed him (each snake is SO different!). What works for me is to put the fuzzy in a small dixie cup on its side in his habitat. Next morning it's always gone and he's curled under his coconut.

Walt and Tweek
(these are old pics of Tweek from last year...) have to do some new ones!

what are some problems that could arise from using sand? thanks for the help!

This topic comes up regularly and I think no other topic arouses the same passion and fever as substrates. Sand is a great substrate for milks and looks very natural, cleans easily, and is by and large cheap and attractive. It does however weigh a ton and will absolutely be a source of (potential)impaction when ingested. So feed in a different cage or feed on top of newspaper. I keep all my milks on Aspen and feed on sheets of cardboard in their cage.
I think calcisand even states "safe to ingest" but it's not and the evidence is available in Maders 2nd edition of Reptile Medicine and Surgery.
Newspaper is still the perfect cage liner but not especially attractive.
Jeff

Hey Jeff,
Regarding Newspaper-- what about caustic effects from news print??? True??? False??? What do you think???

Pat

Howdy Pastorpat, I've no idea what caustic effect newspaper could cause, this is the first mention I've heard. Urates could cause a caustic effect but this is a different husbandry issue. There was a legit concern about cadmium in the inks but soy based inks made newspaper safe about 20 years ago. Regardless, I've used strictly newspaper on and off from 1969 to 1998 and have a couple snakes that are noticably more comfortable on flat sheets and a pile of shredded newspaper. I do prefer Aspen when working with 200 snakes but would quickly use sand for displaying a few snakes in a more natural setting like a zoo exhibit.
Told ya the substrate subject would get lively and now I'm curious about the newspaper eroding my lap!!!!
All for now, Jeff

I wouldn't be concerned with that. I've used newspaper for a long time and have never had a problem. I wish it was more attractive, but it gets the job done.

Dave
DNS Reptiles

Wait, I got it. The caustic effect of newsprint. Of course and yes, sometimes the news is disturbing and irritating. Good one sir. Jeff

At one time I used a 50/50 mixture of play sand and bed-a-beast (shredded coconut shell) as a bedding in display cages. The animals loved it as it held form and allowed them to tunnel and root around as they are inclined to do. The down side was that it took more time to clean because complete changes of bedding were needed more frequently. I was also worried about impacting which others have brought up. To prevent this I fed them in seperate shoe boxes.