Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, I think it's time to get rid of my Pastel Balls.
I see the males for $300 on the classifieds.
I have Butter Stipe CORNSNAKES that sell for more than $300 and they have 20 egg clutches.
I know this subject is very tired, but how low will people drop the Pastel price?? They still make great combos and with small clutch sizes, I can't see why anyone would accept $300 for a morph.....even if there are a million of them out there.

Brian

Nothing junk about a pastel.........still nice snakes...

Just cant buy the wife a new house with em anymore!

Heres a guy who's in it for the $$$$. Yes this snake is now "junk", just let it go in the woods or something since it doesn't even deserve to live anymore.
-----
1.1 100% het albino W. Hognose
0.1 66% het albino "red" W. Hognose
1.0 Pastel Ball Python
1.0 Common Snapping Turtle
1.1 Bearded Dragon

I will hold onto my breeder male. I am also raising up another male for breeding as well. They are still nice to look at and a joy to keep.

We are all in this for the money AND BECAUSE WE LOVE THE SNAKES!!! If you're not interested in the money, I will give you my shipping address for all of your 2006 babies.

Also, I do NOT consider Pastels JUNK!!!!!!!! I labeled them as "junk status".....meaning they have fallen to the level of Het males, etc. I even stated that they make beautiful combos.

I love my snakes, I breed them for fun......but I would like a nice return to cover expenses, time, etc. I do treat this as a business and to have a sucessful business you have to love what you're doing. What better way to earn a living than selling animals that you love raising.

My point was that with the small number of babies that Balls produce each year, I would rather spend my time with morphs that will sell for more than $300.

Brian

So if you are looking at it like a business how much does an animal have to sell for in order to make a profit? If you are treating it like a business you have to have a super pastel male to make your pastel's and not a pastel male. Why? Because when you produce normals your profit margin drops dramatically. So let's say you have a super male and breed it to 5 females that lay eggs. If you get 6 eggs from each female and get a 50/50 split male/female, that's 15/15. If you sell them for $500 a pair that's $7500. subtract initial purchase price of super male of $5000 and raise up cost of 5 adult females at $150 per year at 3 years x 5 females that's $2250. Add that to the $5000 and you are at 7250. additional costs of 250 and you break even the first year producing offspring and that's at $500 a pair. If you have more females than males you make more money. If you make great looking pastels you make more money. Until ball pytons drop below $250/pr you can still make decent amounts of money on them if you lay out your breeding plans right.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of female holdbacks and several rescue normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

hets for Super Pastel. People always complain about co-dominant and dominant morphs dropping in price, but they don't say anything when hets of recessive morphs drop.

A Pastel is just a het Super Pastel, a Yellow Belly is just a het Ivory. So when you say Pastels have dropped to the price of het males, that is because they ARE hets.

Just because they look different from a normal does not change the fact that they are heterozygous animals. I just don't see your logic.

Good planning will result in a profit in any ball python breeding.

that's the difference.....and that's not even part of the point I was trying to make. Please, I think you just wanted to argue so you grabbed at something and manipulated it a bit.

there is no manipulation involved in that statement, pastel's are het for super pastel. If your goal is to produce het super pastel's then you will make less money, however if you are wanting to produce super pastel's then you will make more money. Super pastel's still sell for over $3k with asking prices over $4500. If you buy an 05 male for $650 now and breed it this season and next season and sell nothing but the males you will make your money back plus a nice profit. In the mean time you are raising up females that you can use for supers and other crosses that will command much higher prices. Co-doms work the exact same as recessives in pricing except that the het's are visual and are nice to look at while you grow them up.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of female holdbacks and several rescue normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

:repares for the heat::

(And I put ball breeders in quotes, because it doesnt apply those who are in it for the snakes themselfs) that there is a compleat misunderstanding of how the snake market works. Sure 2 years ago you could sell a fair male pastel for $1000-$1500 and a females for $2000 easy, but everyone and their mom saw that and hopped on the waggon. Now everyone has one and compition is high; so prices are low. This is how the story of co-dom genetics goes. Its agravating t ome and other people who care about the animals to hear people [bleep]ing about how their snakes are junk, worthless, and not worth having anymore. You'll still make your money back selling $300 pastels. you'll even make a profit. Hell, sell you junk pastels to a petstore (because I guess nobody wants them anymore ;p ) for $150 and you'll still make your money back. There are more and more people getting into breeding every day, and every year there are more and more snakes being produced, and every season the market falls. I know this is a tired point and this subject has been beatten to death, but it still amazes me that people whine because they wont get rich off a $800 investment that they keep in a plastic box...

Anyways, if you MUST try to get rich quick, buy into recessive genetics...

(flame on)
-----
- Mike Fourquet

CLOACA HERPS

Pastels are NOT junk!!!
I'm just saying that if I have a choice between producing Pastels at $300 or another morph that sells for more......it makes sense to breed the more expensive one.
Yes, I love all Balls.....blah, blah, blah........but I also want to earn a living by selling reptiles. I wouldn't want to do anything else. Life is sweet.

Brian

on another note, those snakes that are selling for more now will be $300 in 2 years when your male is producing enough to sell.
-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of female holdbacks and several rescue normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Name all of the "ball breeder" who make a living breeding snakes that don't have a real job. There are not very many and I would sa y that most of them got in on the ground floor years ago. Keep ya' day job.
-----
Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile Breeders
sonoranreptile@cox.net
On the roof of one thought
On the edge of one world
Smell the flavor of glory
Infused in people's hearts
Certified and glorified
Pushed to a higher high
Crossing desert in a second
With a single breath
---Samael "Oriental Dawn"

Name all of the "ball breeder" who make a living breeding snakes that don't have a real job. There are not very many and I would sa y that most of them got in on the ground floor years ago. Keep ya' day job.

There's is probably a lot less than he thinks, but there is probably a LOT MORE than what you think.

Just because a person doesn't have a banner on kingsnake or goes to all the shows, doesn't mean they don't make major cake from breeding herps. There's a whole INDUSTRY of guys producing a TON of stuff just for the wholesale market.

Then sell them.
Put them in the classifieds...i'm sure somebody will take them off your hands.
-----
Charles

Pastels as a morph are not junk - but a lot of people bought in as a start up morph and did no selective breeding, mass produced them and there are a lot of junk pastels on the market. Good high quality pastels are and will continue to pull in a decent price no matter how low the prices drop. As will pastels het for something else. Spiders will be right down there in the under $500 category next year - but they are still a good staple and a nice one will still command a high price. I will pass up a cheap snake any day for a higher priced stunning one from someone that actually cares about quality! JMO.
-----
Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizards of unknown origin

if everyones so worried about depreciation of there snakes there is a way to fix this....everyone just needs to hold back all there snakes for a year or so and then prices should go up....and i think pastels are great even at 300..more people can afford them..and theres always supers, bumbles and killers, pastelclowns and more so they are a very wanted animal..just a thought...we love ours

I have kept reptiles since the age of 15...I am 30 now. For years I have bought into projects and sold as fast as i bought them.

When I bought my first pastel male 3 years agao I spent 1000.00 dollars on it. WOW 300 bucks that sucks...wait as we should look at this its not for the money its for the LOVE OF THE ANIMALS!

If you like ball pythons no matter the cost buy alot of them....breed them for the love of doing it the money will come! We have done well we now have 2 male pastels a male mojave ( HUGE THANKS TO TONY HURT) and 16 1200 to 3900 gram females.

Junk not junk more affordable for the average joe who cant buy a 10,000.00 snake (Me with my 5 kids)

so thanks for reading...I hope you all understand where im comming from if not well whatever! Just my dollar to add!

Paul
rip SI

-----
R.I.P Steve "croc hunter" Erwin Sept 2006

Humm wait till that corn snake drops. Do you double clutch her?
-----
RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

My question is: why do people come here and whine about prices being low? Do they think their post is going to make people raise the prices on their balls? If anything i would think these types of posts would scare off prospective buyers who aren`t yet sure if they want to get into ball pythons. Which in turn could lower demand, which in turn causes prices to drop. So good work people.

Blah blah blah, price of lucys dropping.

Blah blah blah, junk snake is worthless.

Now I sit back and wait till I can afford one.

Why do you think that dog breeds still sell for $$$, especially champion blood lines. Dog breeders selectively breed their animals for excellent quality. They don't breed one male to as many females as they can to produce as much as they can quickly. Really good breeders rarely breed a female more than once or twice in it's life. The problem is that people buy the cheapest ball they can find, then breed it to any female that will go. They produce dozens of animals that they have no intention of keeping for any length of time, so they dump them at what ever price will sell quickly.

If the market prices are to stay high then production of lower priced morphs would have to slow as prices drop. This will never happen though. Recently breeding has become the rave, and since there is no real selecive breeding, even a first time breeder can compete with a seasoned breeder.

Some people do selectively breed their pastels, and their pastels and supers are sweet. I would not buy an ugly pastel, no matter how cheap. But I would spend 2-3x market value for a stunner. Most people who are serious about there animals would. Why not pend $500 dollars more to start with an animal that includes years of selective breeding quality? Compared to caging, food, and time, $500 is nothing really.

Also you won't have new babies for another whole year. In my mind that means that you have 1 year to clear your inventory. Really my goal is out of 8 babies to sell 4 within the first year, 2 more the next year, and maybe 1 as an adult, with 1 keeper. So that means that each year I only need to sell 4 babies, 2 yearlings, and 1 adult out of each clutch I get. I am in no hurry to sell my animals. If pastels don't sell then I won't breed them next year, as I have no need to increase my inventory.

You said that you think of it as a buisness, well do that. Every good store that I have been to carried an inventory. I have yet to see one get merchandise in once a year and hurry up and try to sell it so they can close. Makes sense to me. The way I see it is you should always have at least 1 of each morph you produce still availiable. If you don't then your selling them for less than you can get.

NP
-----
John Scully
Delphi Pythons
www.delphipythons.com (website coming soon)

Very Nice Post - the unfortunate side is that this really isn't about the snakes - if it were then yes - people would breed their balls as selectively as champion dogs.

But look how many people respond to these threads with the standard answer - "who cares you buy the male breed it to 5 or 6 females and you've made your profit back - the price goes down you are still making money just make more snakes"

To a very few this is about creating something stunning and being proud of their accomplishment - to most it's about selling out and making room or money for their next big project.

Create more, sell more, buy more. Yeah - it's about the snakes all right.
-----
Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

6.34.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python (Verdi)
0.1.0 Bredls Python (Smurfette)
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Desert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.0 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 Lizards of unknown origin

I agree with you fully. my post below was stated in the full business state of mind. If price drops you produce your inventory to make up for the lower profit per product margin. Quality animals will always sell for more than bargain basement animals. If someone is looking at 800g pastel males, which is he going to buy, a browned out one for $650 or a bright yellow male for $800. I'd be willing to bet the more expensive one because that is what that person has to look at for several years. we have spent several thousands on animals that look better than the average to better our breeding program which in turn will make our offspring look better than the average out there. This was the investment that goes into ball python breeding, not just spending money on a male and breeding it to as many females as you can.

-----
Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of female holdbacks and several rescue normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

This is a very good post. I am going to print it and incorporate some of it into the way I do business.

Many, many thanks.

BTW, This post actually has me re-thinking about the Pastel.
I have a Bell line Pastel that is stunning bright yellow.......and I have seen some Pastels that are borderline "normal" looking.
I too would pay more for a nicer looking animal.

Brian

Pastels *should* drop in price faster than recessive hets. They are hets--but instead of breeding a het to a normal and having to guess which ones are carrying the desired gene--you can already tell. Too easy to produce.

Can't even come close to comparing the price to a butter stripe cornsnake. That is a triple recessive morph combination...something that has not even been accomplished in ball breeding yet. And if I do recall correctly butter stripes were $1000 just a couple years ago.

Now tell me what a male het stripe, het amel or het caramel goes for and then compare the price to a male pastel ball.

Pastels are a wonderful base morph and the price decrease can make them accessible to people just discovering ball pythons or snakes in general.
-----
Kassandra Royer
Royer Reptiles

Out of all the ball python breeders, WHO does not have a pastel male. . .hmmmm look at how well the pastel gene improves other morphs!

PEace,
Ian Daviss

I still cant believe this statement was made.......

"Well, I think it's time to get rid of my Pastel Balls.
I see the males for $300 on the classifieds."

I will not get rid of my Pastel. I have a nice male Pastel that I plan to make combos with. The main reason I wrote that statement is that I never thought I would see a visible morph drop to $300. I figured the bottom would be at $500.

I'm actually just upset to see this. That's where I was when I wrote that.

Brian

There are still many people just entering the hobby that would like something other than a normal Ball. The Pastel, as a baby especially, is alot nicer looking than a normal, and is not going to break the bank. So, it is a good choice for people who are vendors at shows, as their low end sale, and for pet stores.
The down side is everyone is breeding them. The other down side is that people are using Super Pastel males now, which make even more Pastels. I sold my lone male Pastel breeder last year, and have replaced him with a Pastel cross male, Pastel YB male, and Pastel Het Clown male. I think alot of breeders will be doing something similar, replacing adult male Pastels with Pastels het for something, and Supers. There will be a plethora of adult males for sale, not enough people to buy them, the price will come down on the adult males, which will drive down the price on baby males. I am not really surprised, what I am surprised about is the price of FEMALE Pastels. I will start replacing normal females with Pastels females in the near future at these prices. I have one Pastel x normal clutch hatching right now, and one Pastel x Pastel clutch due to hatch in 10 days. Pastels rule!

Dave

I just purchased a Lemon Pastel, to hopefully breed with my spider. I love the bumblebee cross these two morphs make. Thats definitely one way to make some money with a pastel if you want (for now at least LOL)! Im not in it for the money "yet", just love the snakes!