Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello everyone,
Well this morning I woke up to a distrubing surpise. I checked my frogs like I always do, and noticed one of my Red-Eyes was one his side. His eyes were both awake and his legs made almost an 8 shape when I picked him up to see if he was okay. Well then I realized he was as lifeless and found he had died sometime during the night. I could not imagine what caused his death, I just put 6 of the Red-Eyes in a brand new cage. I also just bought the Red-Eyes on Saturday, so I guess it could have been over stress. I put penlty of crickets for them to eat, have fresh water, temp and humidty are where they should be.

Well now there is another one of my Red-Eyes that appears to have something wrong. One of his eyes looks alittle enlarged and he raises his neck really high when I spray him with spring water. I thought he might be dehydrated because I haven't seen any of them get in the water, so I placed him in the "pond
." Well he is now just sitting in there with his head tilled in to one side with the "bad" eye completely underwater. He is a darker green color.

Can anyone tell me what might be the matter? I am very concered that the other one may die too? Could the cause be stress or something else? Thank you all for reading this and any replies would be more than appreciated. ASAP if at all possible, I am not sure how much time the other one has/

Sorry I'm not an expert, I've only had my Red eyes for a few months.

I did start with 3 and within a couple days, lost one, just found him in there upside down, he may have jumped and banged the glass? I had the guy check him out and no other bumps or bruises or bites so I have to assume a freak accident or stress. They were shipped in to the shop and then a few days later I came to pick them up. My other two have been fine ever since.

My first guess would be either a temp/humidity problem or a toxin issue. What are your temps and humidity and how long have they held prior to adding the frogs? What do you have in your tank that has a potential for toxins, like plants with fertilizer on them, or is your water treated for chlorine and chloramine? That needs to include the misting water as well.

Thanks for replying so quickly.
Well my temp. is about 80 degrees F with a humidity of anywhere between 75-85%. I have a lot of air plant and then I will just list the scientific names from the site I got the others:
Alocasia guttata 'bullatta'
Cryptanthus
Heliconia stricta cv. 'Dwarf Jamaican'
Calathea 'Cynthia'

I got all these plants from Black Jungle, and since they sell frogs I assumed they would be safe for the Red-Eyes. I do use some Fertilizer that I also got from the site. Dyna-Gro Fertilizer - Liquid Bloom, which states that it is okay to use when animals are present. I only use a very small amount and only apply it directly to the base of the plants. I do not use it as a mister spray.

As for the normal water, I just use spring water that is treated with some Exo-Terra water treament liquids. One is suppose to help with taking out chemicals, one with waste and anomina build up, and one that gives them some supplements, I think just calcium. So as far as I know, the water should be fine.

I also have 5 whites tree frogs, I know they are much easy to keep and are hardier frogs. But they have been exposed to much of the same things, as far as water goes and they don't seem to be effected. They are in a seperate tank of course. I hope this helps with what may be the matter. Thanks again for any replies.

Not sure about the "supplements" perhaps it's one of those, though you do need to use the ones to take out the chlorine for sure. Are you misting the tank as well? That will give them some moisture as well, just make sure that water is treated as well.

Your temps are fine, there should be a drop at night, about 5 degrees would be appropriate. Of course the 12 hr on/off of light.

The only thing else I would think is possibly a problem with the food source? Make sure they are from a clean source and gutloaded. Also put in some fish flakes or the like in case they don't all get eaten. That way hopefully they won't bite on your frogs. The size needs to be equal to about the distance between the frogs eyes. This is usually much smaller than the Whites which seem to fit alot in theirs.

Otherwise, it may just be stress, you can help with that by covering three sides of the tank, and letting them be besides feeding them.

Thank you for the help. Unforunately my other Red-Eye that looked like he was doing poorly died. That makes 2 in less than a day. It really makes me worry about the other ones, but they seem to be in better health than the two deceased ones.

I don't believe the the other supplement would make much of a difference. I have never seen the Red-Eyes in their "pond." I call it that because I built one of those false bottom tanks and just left an area open where the filtered water runs down. I hope they are able to use it, it has a big limb that runs right across it and a vine that comes straight down from a tree limp all the way into the 1 - 1.5" of water. Do Red-Eyes get in the water that often?

Also, I have noticed when the lights are turned off it may be hours before I see most of them move, sometimes I never can tell they have moved until the following morning. Are Red-Eyes very active at night? Or could these guys just still be stressed and just sleeping because that is how they are dealing with it? They just don't seem to be very active at all, at least when they are suppose to do.

Finally, does anyone know what that inflammed eye problem I was talking about could be? They both just had one eye that look bigger and a little foggy or some type of film or something over it. Im not really sure, it might have been a result from them about to die or their actual cause of death. But does anyone know or seen anything like it?

Thank you all again, I am really trying to save the remaining frogs. I just would like to know at least I am doing everything I can to keep them a live and well.

Yes frogs need to have water to soak in, not to swim in. The only way they "drink" is through their skin, not their mouths. I have rocks and driftwoods that are part in/part out of the water on a very slight incline. This allows them to sit on the wood or rocks with their bottoms in the water to absorb what they need.

Perhaps there is too much of a drop off with your water area? It really needs to be only a couple inches (they can drown) and put some larger rocks in to taper the entry and other sitting spots.

Yes they are nocturnal, my lights go off around 9 pm, they start to wakeup closer to 10 and do their "grooming" (yawning and stretching etc) then at 10 pm I feed them. They are now pretty used to the schedule and are awaiting the crickets. They are quite boring except those few moments when I see them, they have amazingly long legs for what you see in the daytime.

Try sneaking a peek sometime during the middle of the night, you'd be surprised to see them, they kinda freeze in place hoping you can't see them. I have found mine sitting at the bottom quite often.

If you're finding poo then that is a good sign. Make sure you are feeding enough and often enough (babies are everyday); the size should be the distance between the frog's eyes. Make sure you mist them, especially if you think they have not been using the water.

If everything in your setup checks out okay, call the place where you purchased them. Hopefully you bought these frogs from a reputable shop or site. If so, do they have a guarantee? Places like Petco and Petsmart give you 14 days in case there are problems.
Good Luck!

My shop did, I'm not sure if it was a 7 or 14 day one, but I do all my business with them and I had them order them in.

Red eyes will probably never be found at Petco, they are so hard to get in alive (my shops' first shipment was all dead, and they are flown in and picked up at the airport) and they already have issues trying to keep Whites alive!

Also by contacting the shop, they may have had issues with others that came in with them.

Do you know if the frogs are Wild Captures or Captive Bred? Are they adults? and what is your substrate?

alot of substrates have ferts in them already.. even some that claim to be organic are dangerous due to natural fertilizers.

If they are WC, then you are likely to have some recent imports.. which bring alot of issues with them including parisites, infections etc.. This can be very very difficult to deal with, even for experienced keepers. If this is the case, you need to consult a vet experienced with frogs.

If your using spring water or distilled, stop using the supplements.. they aren't needed. If you have substrate that is questionable, I would take it out.. and stop using your ferts. Those plants won't really need it once established anyway.. It will take a bit longer for them to completely establish.. but everything will be much healthier in the long run.

Are your frogs eating? Are you finding waste in the tank? If so, have a fecal sample ran.. it shouldn't cost much and most vets can do that for you.

If you got them from a retail store, it has probably been long enough that they won't help you.. but I would still try. If you got them from a breeder, I would email them w/ a description of what is going on, along with how you have been keeping them and ask for their advice.
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Well I guess that would have been a good question to ask the supplier when I bought the frogs. Unforunately I bought the frogs at one of the reptile shows that my state holds twice a year. So I am not aware of the group I purchased them from. So I am not able to ask them any questions about the frogs.

I do believe they are full grown. The substrate I bought from Black Jungle was one of those compressed bricks. But I covered 90% of the ground with moss.

I can not tell if the frogs are eating. Two of the four look pretty happy and healthy. They are good solid lime green color, sleep during the day on the rock background or glass. They appear not to be too thin. But I have one that looks pretty thin and I have seen crickets pass him and he doesn't make a move. I have found waste in the tank. But like I said, the ones who look healthy could be the ones making it.

Would a picture of my tank setup help with determining if it even looks correct? I never thought I would have this many problems with the red-eyes right off. I mean I have had my other frogs for years, so I am not a total beginner with frogs.

Sure you can post pics, I don't have much more knowledge as I've only had mine for a few months. I do know that they have been said to be the easiest to stress. Considering that it may just be stress. It does suck that you've lost a couple as I know they cost more than alot of frogs.

As far as the one that is sick I guess you could move it to another small tank with just a leaf and some water but then again it would probably just stress them more. A suggestion that I've heard for sick frogs before is to just give them a day or two of mainly darkness so that they can rest. Again, just what I've heard.

Also put extra crickets in, and place some fish flakes in one spot on the floor, that will attract the crickets and hopefully your frog to them. Just keep up the temp, I've also heard on the warmer side of their range for when they're ill. Maybe you can cover all sides for a couple of days to let them acclimate.

I know how it is, one of mine died right away too, but the other two are fine. Oh, if you have an water testing strip that may ease your mind about the water at least, that's what I did. If you don't have any most pet stores will test a sample for you. Just something else you can cross off.

Well guys, I appreciate everyone's help with this. But I now have had 4 of the 6 red-eyes die within 2 days of each other and less than a week since I bought them. I don't care about the money I spent as much as I feel bad for something I may have done or not done to have caused this.

I am very worried about the remaining two. They seem to be fine, they look healthy and are sleeping throughout the day, unlike my other 4 really did. They have a nice color, so I guess that is a good sign. I just pray that these guys will make it, I don't think I can take another pair of them dying. Red-eyed tree frogs have been my favorite frogs and animals since I was a really small kid and it just sucks when your favorite animals are dying right and left.

Well I have attached a picture of the terrarium. You can see the large female in the front, awake and looking uncomforable. Unforunately this was taken about an hour before she died. Any suggestions would be great. However, it would be almost impossible without destroying the tank to do anything other than move plants around at this point. Given it is a falso bottom setup.

I think your setup is very nice, it will look great once it grows in.

The only thing that I would suggest is to get some fake plants to attach to the glass higher up on the glass and that would drape down so that they could climb in them and have some coverage from the light while they are sleeping.

They really like to be hidden and that will be no problem when your tank grows in. Since that will take a couple months adding the fake ones until then will help reduce their stress.

I know what you're going through, I thought for sure that there was something I must have done that killed mine. I can say I checked everything and couldn't find anything. With the remaining two of mine still going I'm sure that it wasn't anything I did, and I'm sure the same for you.

I think your setup is very nice, it will look great once it grows in.

The only thing that I would suggest is to get some fake plants to attach to the glass higher up on the glass and that would drape down so that they could climb in them and have some coverage from the light while they are sleeping.

They really like to be hidden and that will be no problem when your tank grows in. Since that will take a couple months adding the fake ones until then will help reduce their stress.

I know what you're going through, I thought for sure that there was something I must have done that killed mine. I can say I checked everything and couldn't find anything. With the remaining two of mine still going I'm sure that it wasn't anything I did, and I'm sure the same for you.

Honestly, From what you have described, it sounds like you have done nothing wrong, so don't beat yourself up over that. All of your answers are right on for what you should be doing. From the sounds of it, you have gotten some animals that were ill for some reason or another when you got them. They may be fresh imports.. or it could have just been exposed to something else.

I don't want you to post the name of the breeder you got them from, but was it is a reputable breeder? or just another guy w/ frogs? and have you attempted to contact them?

Whatever happens.. here is a little bit of advice, for what it is worth: Until you have several years of experience, when it comes to frogs (especially those South and Central America) ensure they are Captive Bred animals before purchasing them. Wild Caught animals are notoriously had to keep, with some people estimating 75% or more of the imports die within the first few months after being imported. As a result red eyes and other similar animals have a reputation of being very very difficult to keep. This is really not fair to the frogs or the hobby. If you setup is as described.. you should have easily been able to keep your group of frogs for years if they are started off healthy. So, chalk it up as a learning lesson and next time ask a few more questions. If you don't have a good feeling about the answers, walk away. (Warning, alot of small resellers will often claim they are CB animals, when in fact they are not). Ask questions about age, how they were bred, etc as well.. sometimes that will give you a better idea if the person is being honest with you.

I hope this doesn't turn you off from RETF's.. they are very rewarding.. and spectacular animals.

I would take the remaining animals out of that tank. I would set them up in 10 gallon tanks individually. Use paper towels on the bottom, and a bowl of water. Monitor them and their health for atleast the next month.

Unfortunately, I would also be very hesitant to put anything back in that tank. If you want to risk it and try, I would take the tank outside or to the garage, and put a cup of water in it.. drop a piece of dry ice into the cup and seal the tank completely. Leave it fogged up for 24hours.. then allow it to air out. This should kill anything that is living within the tank..
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Hey Tim,

Since you're here, I have a couple questions. One of my two Red eyes is so much larger than the other, they were same size when I got them back in June. Now I know that it could be that one is female and one male, but I do notice that the larger one is a much more the hunter than the smaller one. Also the smaller one has been in the same spot for the last 2 days. Granted though I usually only see them moving for a few minutes a night. Just wondering if that is fine.

Also have noticed some gnat-like bugs in there. How do I deal with those? I generally don't have to do much in the way of cleaning as the pump (with water on the bottom)circulates everything, the waterfall goes over my two plants which I'm sure absorb things, and I have one busy snail in the water that gets all the junk and dead crickets. I basically pick out any poo and wipe down the glass and leaves.

Something on another note, I have been trying to get in at talktothefrog since the spring, they were having problems then and I could never login. I emailed the admin a week or so ago and he said he'd take care of it but even after a second email, nothing. So I got in contact with Whitie on the repticzone site and said he(she)'d send them an email. You know anything about that? Otherwise I guess I can get a new user name.

Also, question, I got a 42 gal hex on the Petco sale for $42 top and lights included! Nice snag as the sticker is $279. Anyways, I was thinking of upgrading the Red eyes to that tank, then getting another couple and growing them in the old tank and then again moving them to the new tank when ready. But since I've been on the frog sites I've been noticing how much everyone loves the Whites and wondering what your thoughts on those. Granted you are more of a breeder than most and I'm sure there isn't much of a market for whites for someone like you. Just would like your opinion on the difference in keeping etc.

Thanks for any info, I certainly appreciate your expertise.

Hey!
I will try to answer all of your questions.. if I don't get it all, or you need more info... let me know. I don't check this forum but a few times a week, so if you need it fast, you can always drop me an email - bogart6868@aol.com

Some RETF's are more active then others.. and there is certainly a variance in size even for the same sex (I have some males that 1/2 inch longer than others, and more drastic differences in females. I would not worry about one getter larger than other so much. What you need to do is watch their weights. Make sure that they are not dropping weight. As long as each has good body weight, they should be fine. If your worried about their activity, mist the tank really heavily right before lights out.. this should kick em into gear a bit and get them moving about.

As for the spot, I would have see it to know what it is.. mine sometimes develop freckles as they mature.. Green spots sometimes can be a bad thing though.. Can you get a good pic of it for me? (email is above if that is easier for you to get it to me). Let me know if you have done anything different as well (added something to the tank, changed temp, humidity etc.. anything that is different)

There are lots of gnat like critters that can develop in or around tanks.. most are harmless to the animals, and more of a pain in our butts than anything. There are a couple of ways you can help to control this.. fly paper outside of the tank will help, or an open can of coke that is about 1/2 full will usually attract them and drown them. Either way, you don't want to use a chemical to get rid of them, which means it will take a little time to clean up the entire population.

As for thefrog, I am not sure what is going on, and really have nothing to do with the admin side of things. All I would be able to do would to send a new email. I know they had some trouble with some of the accounts and people getting locked out. That is fixed now, but not all of the accounts were reset. Beyond that, the admin is traveling alot right now, and I am not sure the mods can do anything about it. If I were you, I would simply create a new account and have at it. I am sure it nothing against you specifically and simply a technical glitch.

I am jealous.. I don't have a PETCO near me.. so I missed the sale completely.. congrats on the find though.. hex's that big can be turned into great vivs!! I like the size of that tank.

As for my opinion on frogs.. I love both whites and RETF's. Personally, RETF's are one of my favorite of the tree frogs. That said, whites make great pets too. Both are different in terms of care requirements, and both seem to have different personalities to a degree. As far as activity level is concerned, to me atleast, it actually seems to vary w/ individual frogs and not be based on species. Basically though, in the long run, it is completely up to you.. if you want whites, go that way. The different forums or groups you talk with will each have their favorites. Keep in mind though, alot of times people will champion one species, while having little to no experience with anything else out there, and whites are certainly one of the most commonly kept animals in the hobby.

All of that said, it ultimately boils down to your taste. I like variety.. So I would more than likely keep the retf's together, and get something different for the 2nd tank. Also, while wtf's are certainly a great choice, keep in mind that there are a lot of other types of frogs out there besides the whites and red eyes. If you can keep retf's, more than likely adding dart frogs to your collection would not be hard to do at all. (would mean you need fruit flies, but would give you frogs that are active during the day and you can watch and enjoy during normal hours). Also, there are several other tree frogs that are rewarding and very interesting to keep.. clowns, tiger legged monkey frogs, waxy monkey frogs just to name a few.

Just keep in mind, many of them are different in terms of care requirements, but they aren't really hard if you set the tanks up correctly and are prepared for them. The only hard part is finding correct information to use as your guideline.

I know I did not help w/ whites-retf debate, if anything probably created more questions? But it really is completely up to you. If you have direct questions about any of em that help you decide, don't hesitate to ask..

Hope all is well!
tim
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