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This is a rough draft of a cage I'm wanting to build for a 10ft. Burmese Python. The cage will be in a room with no permanent heat source and during the winter the average room temp. is aprox. 65 degrees. Most likely I'll be using some type of portable heating to keep the room temps higher when I move my snakes into it.

I'm looking for suggestions on several things.

1: Heat source (I'm thinking of using infrared CHE but don't know what size and/or how many for this size cage.)

2: Cage ventilation.

3: The cage will be 1/2 in. or 3/4 in. plywood or MDF. Should I consider making it double-walled, with insulation?

4: What type, brand of thermostat? (I'm not rich and I've got to build two of these cages so money is a factor. However, I know "You get what you pay for."

5: Where can I get a water bowl that looks nice & big enough for a big Burm?

6: Where do you recommend ordering the above items from?

Thank you for taking the time to help me out, I deeply appreciate it!

HH

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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

1: Heat source (I'm thinking of using infrared CHE but don't know what size and/or how many for this size cage.)

I like CHE's, especially Pearlcos that last for years. I have a 60 watt still going strong after about 12 years (not of contstant use, however). But they do get really hot and special care needs to be taken to keep human and snakes at safe distance.

Radiant Heat Panels are a safer and easier choice. Bob Pound at Pro Products can help you pick one.

2: Cage ventilation.

I am a believer in using more than you think you need, following the philosophy that it is easier to cover existing ventilation in an occupied cage than it is to add more to an already occupied cage. For a burmese I especially believe some ventilation should be provided low in the cage to allow the escape of heavier-than-air gasses.

3: The cage will be 1/2 in. or 3/4 in. plywood or MDF. Should I consider making it double-walled, with insulation?

No, but I would consider leaving a gap underneath the floor where a piece of 3/4", foil-faced poly-iso insulation board could be placed.

For extremely cold times Reflectix insulation can be temporarily draped over and around the cage and attached with painters tape.

I did this with my Bearded Dragon cage and the cage actually got too hot, even when temperatures dropped into the low 60's in the room.

4: What type, brand of thermostat? (I'm not rich and I've got to build two of these cages so money is a factor. However, I know "You get what you pay for."

No idea. I have not had to purchase a Tstat in years.

5: Where can I get a water bowl that looks nice & big enough for a big Burm?

I have seen large bowls at feed stores in my area. I'm not sure if they are big enough.

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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Thanks for the pointers! I especially like the idea of insulating the bottom, that makes sense seeing how snakes are always in contact with it.

I'm still undecided about whether to use MDF, plywood or melamine. I know a guy that owns a cabinet shop that I haven't seen in a few years and now's a good time to go see him to get his inout on what might hold up the best. I'm not looking for a showcase but I don't want an eyesore, either.

Thanks, again, Chris!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

I'll be interested to hear what he says. Let us know.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Well, the friend of mine that owns the cabinet shop wasn't there but I talked to a few of the guys that work for him & they said that MDF would hold up better than melamine or plywood as for humidity 'n such.

I install floorcovering and there's an underlayment that I use in some situations that's made similar to MDF. When it first came out several years ago I took a piece of it & put it in a bucket of water to see how it held up. Several days later it still hadn't swelled or deteriorated.

Catch ya later!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

I garrentee if you put straight MDF in a bucket of water it will swell and become water logged. I have a sheet with water damage right now that has one edge swollen and destroyed. Melamine will do the same but it takes a bit longer due to the plastic coating but it will happen eventually.
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.11 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

That's an interesting response, one that I'm a bit surprised by. MDF is the most stable in the presence of humidity changes and differentials, but it also the most prone to damage when there is direct exposure to water.

I would research this a bit further. Ultimately you have to be comfortable with what you choose.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

I agree with Chris, but recomend that you build the cage in two pieces that can be bolted together to make one large cage.
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.11 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

Yeah, I've thought about that. Having to move furniture when installing carpet makes you think about things like that. I saw a post where you had recommended doing that to someone else and I am considering it.

Hopefully, my moving days are over (I hate moving!) and my snake room options are limited in this house. Right now my burms are in the living room and the wife ain't none too happy about it. I've actually had visitors refuse to come in the house because of 'em. Works out good for some visitors. They don't stay too long. LOL!!!

Thanks!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

>>1: Heat source (I'm thinking of using infrared CHE but don't know what size and/or how many for this size cage.)
>>
>>I like CHE's, especially Pearlcos that last for years. I have a 60 watt still going strong after about 12 years (not of contstant use, however). But they do get really hot and special care needs to be taken to keep human and snakes at safe distance.

I would also consider the new line of screw-in heat emitters that look similar to a CHE but work more like a radiant heat panel. T-Rex makes one as well as ReptileUV.com and ActiveUVheat.com - they're all manufactured by the same company and all seem to sell for the same price give or take a dollar. They're $25 and are 60 watts but put out anywhere from 100 watts of heat to 160 watts depending on whether you use it in a reflector or not. I have a couple and have been quite satisfied. They're also supposed to be touch-safe although they felt pretty warm to me, but no where near as hot as a CHE gets.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

Matt,

Do those heaters "spread" heat as well as a Pearlco CHE?

Thanks.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

>>Matt,
>>
>>Do those heaters "spread" heat as well as a Pearlco CHE?

Chris,

I unplugged mine a while ago (not needed in the summer) but if I remember correctly they spread the heat over a decent area beneath where ever they were mounted. I think they're good for a more localized heat source versus a heat source for the whole cage. Then again I think localized heat is better for providing a real thermal gradient.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

bighurt,
I'll take your word about MDF swelling. I guess my comment about the subfloor material can be/is misleading. Although they're made with a similar process, the key word being "similar," they perform different. Pressboard/particleboard is made using a similar process and it will swell at the sight of water.

Chris,
I had a funny feeling when talking to those cabinet shop employees that they weren't experts. I'll be nice to them by leaving it at that. Yes, I'll definitely research it some more. Hands-on experience, like everyone that's posted here so far, help a lot. That's why I'm here.

Matt,
I'll look into those radiant emitters. Thanks! I use a 150 watt CHM for the 75-gal. aquarium I have my burms in now and I've been very pleased with the heating. I've got a screen top on the aqua. and I have the CHM in a large porcelain/black reflector. It's deep enough to where the CHM sits off the screen top and it provides a good gradient temp across the length of the aqua. I put a dimmer switch on the CHM cord and connected it to one of those $25 thermostats. The cool end is usually about 7 degrees cooler and the snakes make good use of it.

The thermostat is a Zoo Med and it worked good for about year and went out.

Thanks guys! I really appreciate your help!

HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

HH,
First I didn't mean to be rude if thats how I came across. I just meant I don't think you were aware of the diffences MDF might have from the product you use. Regardless MDF, Melamine, Plywood should never be used alone in a burmese cage. The urates alone will destroy the product in a matter of months. Other than the treated products like the one mentioned by Chris from Nova nearly all wood based sheet material will eventually deteriorate in a cage.

I and others always recommend Melamine because its easy to find is relativly flat and has a last resort barrier built in. Others have used MDF and laminated products previously mentioned, I would do the same to a melamine cage. If the subfloor stuff you have is suitable material to work with and readaly available than by all means use it. Again IMO I think any product should recieve some sort of laminate protection on top of what it is stock.

As far as looks really we only see the outside two sides, front and maybe a top. So in reality only 3 sides need to be nice material. Again IMO I perfer the solid wood fronts for any cage. Otherwise I would use plastic! LOL

My 2 cents on the CHE deal is this, I use flexwatt in my snake cages its not the best but it works. My cages are realativly short Boas don't generally do a lot of climbing and they save space. So something hanging down within a cage doesn't work for me. They do provide excellent radient energy like previously mentioned. And I would always protect any bulb or element from contact with the inhabitants. IE in my lizard cages they can't come in contact with them at all the cage is built to allow the distance form animal.

For shallow snake cages I think and this is my own honest opinion that Radient heat panels such as those by Pro Products are the best way to go. All of my new cages will be built around the use of their products. Bob is really knowledgable and very customer oriented. As another option I suggest you check them out. My favorite part is they are safe to the touch.

So Good Luck and keep us posted
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.11 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

"First I didn't mean to be rude if thats how I came across."

Gosh no! I didn't think you were. And likewise, I didn't mean to come across the wrong way if I did.

I did a fair amount of research about whether to use melamine, MDF or plywood several months ago and at that time I decided to go with melamine. Problem is that too much water has past under the bridge since then and my aging mind began to doubt and flip-flop.

Another thing is that the places in my area where I can get melamine only offer a few colors. I think almond was the one I was leaning towards.

I agree that whatever I use should have an added layer of protection. Before now I was thinking that the melamine should be fine as is but after all the advice from this thread & others I've read I agree that even it should have an extra layer of protection.

Radian heat panels; That's what I was looking for last night online at The Bean Farm & Reptile Direct but I didn't see them and I kinda got sidetracked and forgot about 'em. I couldn't remember what they were called. Thanks for mentioning it! I'll look into them.

Thanks, sport!

Just in case any of you'd like to see my burms here's a link to some pics of me & my son, who got me started reliving my childhood days of snake fever.
http://www.happyhillbilly.com/snakes/index.html

I'll keep ya'll posted!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

Gosh no! I didn't think you were. And likewise, I didn't mean to come across the wrong way if I did.

Nah, its just I had a bad day, and I tend to be curt and very short on bad days. I re-read my post and thought I might have been a bit rude.

I think melamine may be the best choice but it depends on what other resources you have available.

One being vinyl flooring I think a melamine carcass with laminated vinyl flooring to the sides and floor would be probally the best for a burm.

However melamine is really heavy, Baltic Birch is a very attractive plywood used in furniture. If you built a carcass out of BB and laminated the vinyl flooring I think it would again be a really good set-up. You might even consider painting the interior than laminating the vinyl. This would at least be the easiest to get the ceiling a color of choice.

There are also epoxies which aren't my cup of tea, IMO they can be more work and hard to work with. Chris Harper really knows wood treatments and epoxies better than anyone else on the forum IMO.

Vinyl film is another option for laminating but I haven't seen it used in a Burm cage, and as I am sure you are aware of Burmese urates are a killer mix.

Formica is another option but harder to work with than vinyl flooring and more expensive, not to mention limited colors and availability. Rainbows R Us has built some awesome enclosures using formica for his Rainbow Boas.

I myself use melamine and am in the process of making new cages and laminating old with vinyl film. I keep RTB's the urates are not bad compared to the Burmese I kept before. I am also working on some veery large modular cages, built from full size Hollow core doors, another construction option but a bit more difficult to work with.

For the beginner to novice woodworker the easiest method is probally the twin 5' cages made of Baltic Birth ply. Laminated with your choice of material. I use solid wood Front's but cheat on my wood working technique to speed up production, what look like solid front frames are actually individual pieces.

As far as the Radient Heat Panels go here is the link to Pro Products.. I would email Bob and ask about the sizing you would need for your cage. He will need to know size material and room temperature in which the cage will be used in. Species info is really not needed but the temps are in your case it may be easier to mention Burmese Python's. As Bob is familiar with the large python and Boa heating needs.

Again Good Luck and Great Pics. Whats the weight on the Female? I sold my Female at about 10' and 56pds before a meal.

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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.11 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
0.0.1 Youth -coming soon-

What do you use to adhere the vinyl to the bottom and sides? What do you do on the corner joints/seams, silicone?

I like the Birch ply. idea because I love wood-grain and Birch has a nice pattern. Sacrificing an extra layer of protection for cosmetics but if done right it should do just as well, I'd think. Seems like I remember it being a bit more expensive but might be worth it. Decisions, decisions.

The more I think about it the more I like the twin cage idea. I considered this several months ago when I was in the designing stage. I had the idea of making 2 4ft. sections that could be easily/quickly bolted together. Actually one cage in two pieces. This would definitely make it easier to stack them, like I'd like to do. With two parts that assemble together by means of two beams or posts there would be support in the middle of the cage to support the weight. At least in my theory.

The female Burm weighs about 31 lbs, at least on my wife's scales (We'll not discuss whether or not she's got the scales cheated to the lighter side). She's an excellent eater (both the Burm & the wife. LOL!!! Just kidding! I hope & pray she doesn't read this or I won't have to worry about building a cage. A coffin, maybe, but not a cage.). Anyway, the Burm eats thawed rats like their going out of style. She ate 10 large rats at last feeding. The male's a lot pickier. Mostly only eats live rats but will sometimes take a thawed after a few live ones. I've been trying for over a year now to get him switched over.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to steer me in the right direction. Thanks to all of you! I'll ponder on all of this for a few days & will post back what I decide to do. I plan to start building within a the next week or so.

Ya'll keep up the good work!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

What do you use to adhere the vinyl to the bottom and sides? What do you do on the corner joints/seams, silicone?

The vinyl film I use is what sign shops use to make decals for window signage, its self adhesive to a finished surface. Vinyl flooring or linoleum is applied with adhesive you spread on, it can be a bit tricky but cheap and durable (to snakes not lizards, I use FRP for them) And Yes I seal all my seams with 100% Silicone.

I like the Birch ply. idea because I love wood-grain and Birch has a nice pattern.

I like it too, it is a bit expensive and doesn't take stain very well but I like the natural look just as well. Depending on what you use for the interior, you could paint the cage carcass with latex paint than apply the laminate overtop. I like white interiors because I don't light my snake cages individually and dark cages are just a pain to clean.

I had the idea of making 2 4ft. sections that could be easily/quickly bolted together.

I suspect 8' is the largest space available, if this is the case you could make 4 cages and bolt the two together and than two on top to make a two story cage for one animal. My cages have an interior height of 18" and I have often thought about building cages that allow the snake between two cages vertically. In a room where 8' and longer cages are impossible this idea could utilize the space while still allowing the most surface area for each individual animal.

I wish I had the funds to build everything I think of, but than I would have tons of un-used cages. Wait I already have that! LOL Sadly I still need more snake cages.

I would switch to Rabbits for the female, they have better protein than a rat. Same as a Rat has etter protein content than a mouse. My female was just about to switch over to rabbits when I sold her. I saved on cost by feeding chicken quarters, I know they need the whole animal. Every feeding included 2 Jumbo rats but at the time Rabbits were hard to come by as I hadn't moved to buying rodents in bulk via the web. I rasied my own! Thats a whole other story.

Again Good Luck
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

I have not followed this entire thread so maybe I'm being redundant, but...

One of the advantages of using baltic birch plywood is that it comes in 5'x5' sheets vs. the 4'x8' that we typically see. This lends itself to building a 5' cage section with minimal waste. But it could also be done with regular ply if you like the species of wood or if you wanted to go with one of the epoxy finished plywoods. I'm sure the scrap would be useful for something.

Regardless, if you're interested in the birch plywood for it's appearance and you have the space for two 5' long cages, by all means build it that way. I think burmese pythons benefit from the space. I would also make it 30" deep, again since that's a single piece of baltic birch ripped in half.

On the other hand, it is hard to beat the cost savings of melamine. You still need to cover the floor with something but that's true of almost any homemade burmese cage. But you have both the interior and exterior of the cage already finished.

The only thing I'm not sure about is if the melamine is durable enough for the first few inches of the cage walls. Burms tend to deficate along cage walls and that area will likely need frequent cleaning/scrubbing. I only built one melamine cage for a burmese and the friend I built it for ended up never using it so I can't say for sure.

If you do go with melamine I would definately find a supplier who carries a higher weight thermofused product. You'll want at a minimum 100 weight thermofused melamine. 120 or 140 weight would be an added bonus. Avoid the melamine foil products found at Home Depot and other similar retail giants. Your cabinet making friends should be able to help there.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Seeing as how I need to build two cages, at the moment I'm thinking of using melamine this time around to cut costs.

If you do go with melamine I would definately find a supplier who carries a higher weight thermofused product. You'll want at a minimum 100 weight thermofused melamine. 120 or 140 weight would be an added bonus. Avoid the melamine foil products found at Home Depot and other similar retail giants. Your cabinet making friends should be able to help there.

Could you give me a bit more info about this? I wasn't aware of such a difference. And what do you mean by "melamine foil products"?

Jeremy,
I'm not restricted to 8-ft, this is what I came up with to keep material waste down. I didn't know the birch came in 5x5.

Does the vinyl film hold up as well as vinyl flooring?

As for switching to rabbits, I'm headed in that direction. I got 5 a month ago and the first litter was born Monday. Been raising rats ever since I got the burms as babies and I'm looking forward to being done with it. I've got about 50 or so in the freezer and about that many alive, still producing. Been raising 'em for almost 2 yrs now and haven't been biten yet. That's why God put tails on 'em, to grab 'em by. Nah, I handle just about every one of them when they're babies so they get use to me. I've even had some steal my heart and become pets, something I never would've ever thought of happening.

BTW, I like the cage, the way you did the wood front, etc...

Thanks guys! I'll keep ya'll posted.

HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

>>Could you give me a bit more info about this? I wasn't aware of such a difference. And what do you mean by "melamine foil products"?

This can be difficult to explain as I did some research on the material a bit more after a program on the discover channel "How its made".

The topic was laminates and melamine was actually what was being discussed. It wasn't as informitive as I would have liked basically what we call melamine is actually laminated partical board. Kinda like calling all facial tissue Klennex.

Melamine is actually the resin, this resin is actually pressed into paper. The paper goes through a drying cycle and than goes into the laminate process. If being used with particle board the paper product infussed with melamine, faar to brittle on its own is pressed into particle board. Between both products they use a layer of straight melamine resin in solid form. Than under enormous pressure from a heated press the entire product is fused together.

The process is identical for formica and even solid laminates like counter tops. The layers are just more numerous and wood is replaced but even more paper infused layers. We use formica for laminating counter tops by appling adhesive. I thought it was interesting that all three products were identical. And all had the base material of Melamine resin.

Where the numbers Chris gave come into play I do not know. Nor will most lumber yards. Most don't even know where the products come from. But the label does and will say what weight it is. IMO I believe this is the weight of the origional paper infuse laminate. Obviously the thicker material is more dense and will have a higher weight. I don't think the number relates to pds but what we refer to as the foil product is most likely the thinnest material that can be used and stil meet the end product requirments. You can actually see the wood through the foil product if its white.

Maybe Chris will expand but that is all I know.

Does the vinyl film hold up as well as vinyl flooring?

Wish I had an answer however, I have yet to use the product in an application. Still working on the prodject. Believe me the forum will hear my results when I have them. I am not prone to holding back info and usually share my results good or bad.

Again Chris may have more information on the use of the vinyl.

Thanks for the comments on the cages, good luck with breeding rabbits. IMO its more work than its worth but to each there own.

Good Luck
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

I'm not 100% clear on the differences. I believe the melamine foil comes in a roll and is ironed onto sheets of particle board.

With the thermofused products a glob of resin/paper is applied and baked right onto the particle board.

Even if that is wrong, the durability of melamine is listed below in order from weakest to most durable.

Melamine foil coated particle board.

80 weight thermofused melamine

100 weight thermofused melamine

120 weight thermofused melamine

140 weight thermofused melamine

Basically the list above lists the thickness of the melamine coating from thinnest to thickest.

Regarding the vinyl film vs. vinyl flooring, I'm sure the flooring is more durable. However, the vinyl film is a bit easier to apply in an already finished cage and is very easy to repair -- you just apply another sheet right over the top.

Vinyl film might be a bit harder to find in small quantities unless a sign shop will sell you some. Scrap linoleum or other vinyl flooring is pretty easy to track down.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

The method I watched was basically taking two large pieces of steel that are heated, to a temperature that I assume activates the resin. These are then pressed together under tons of force, obviously with the product between them. The pressure along with the heat fuzes all the pieces together.

The foil product could just be the basic sheet without the additional resin sheet. Regardless of the method used to produce the product you now have the numbers that will be listed on the product label and that is the important part.

Thanks Chris
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

Very informative & much appreciated! Thanks guys!

Also a good point on vinyl film being easier to apply, repair and/or replace, not to mention the choice of colors.

On raising rabbits, the 5 we started with were free and the kids wanted them badly. I told them that if they'd take care of 'em & I get the babies they could have 'em. We've had them for a month, so far, so good. However, I'm not stupid, or am I? Who takes care of the horse now? The ferret? Dogs? Birds? Snakes? Nile Monitor? Yeah, it's work but I love animals.

Thanks, again, guy! I'll keep ya'll posted.

HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

If you do track down some vinyl film make sure it's suitable to be applied with what is called the wet technique. Basically it means you can spray down some water or soap/water mix which allows you time to position the film and squeegee out the bubbles. This is what makes it easier to apply to the inside of an already assembled cage and repair damage later.

Some vinyl films have a waterbased adhesive that will break down in the presence of water. You cannot apply these with the wet technique.

You really only need a basic calendared vinyl film with a 4 year rating. Anything more expensive than that will not be anymore durable for the inside of a reptile enclosure. The added cost is only for color choices, UV resistance, and/or the ability for be applied over irregular surfaces.

Fortunately I found a zoo that had used vinyl film inside of reptile and small mammal enclosures who had done all of the research on this.

I bought an entire roll and paid 26 cents per square foot. But it is a huge roll and probably more than I'll ever need.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

"make sure it's suitable to be applied with what is called the wet technique."

Thanks!

I priced some things today while I was in town. Gotta a question about sliding glass door tracks. Is there much price & performance difference between the plastic or poly track and the metal track? For two 1/4in. tempered glass doors (each @ 2ft. x 4ft.), top/bottom metal tracks & wheels they said it would be about $75.

Thanks!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

Unless it is really heavy glass I would not consider the track with wheels but that is IMHO. For example I have a lizard cage whos door will be slightly larger than the dimensions you gave and I will still use the plastic track however, my new Iguana cages will have enormous glass doors so I will be getting the roller setup.

Also for snakes I always recommend Safety or Laminated glass over tempered. If the animal ever did strick the glass it would crack but hold to gether instead of shatter like tempered. Also over the years I noticed the safety glass holds its corners better wear I have had some wear on the temperd I use in my lizard cages.

Safety glass is slightly more expensive but IMO its worth it in the long run. It is identical to what is found in you car windsheild.

Just a though!
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

Thanks, Jeremy!
Is there much of a price different in the tracks? Seeing as how the wheels aren't needed and it's plastic instead of metal I assume that going with safety glass & plastic track the price should be the same if not less. Right or wrong?

I hope ya'll know how much I appreiate you taking the time to help me out so much! Thanks a bunch!

While pricing materails yesterday I saw the rock-face skirting that's used around the base of houses & mobile homes and thought that it would make a nice interior decor. A bit pricey but I think it would look sharp if done right.

Have a great weekend!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

Some of the wheeled tracks roll better than the plastic tracks but I don't know about the bare metal tracks.

Plastic tracks work fine but I have not used them in a super large cage. At least not that I can recall.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Thanks, Chris!

HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

I found a hardware store that can order some maple-grain melamine, actually called Duramine (made by Georgia Pacific). It's $41 for 5/8" thick. I'm not sure if they're 4 x 8 or 5 x 10. The manual I downloaded from GP's website said 5 x 10. If so, that's a bonus. If I read the product manual right this stuff has a weight of 125 (laminate thickness?).

That's nearly twice as much as the white but I'm thinking of going for it 'cause I like the fact that the outside of the cage will have a nice finish without extra work.

Will 5/8" thick be strong enough for a 3W x 8L x 30"H cage (or 3W x 10L x 30H if it comes in 5 x 10 sheets) with sliding glass door front? I plan on putting in 2 vertical supports, front & back, in the middle of the length. The Duramine also comes in 3/4" but don't know how much more it costs or if it's needed.

I can get 4 x 8 sheets of oak or birch plywood for $39 ea. Would take more work to finish inside & out, though.

Here's the link to the Duramine: www.gp.com/build/ProductGroup.aspx?hierarchy=pc&pid=1075 Thereis a link at the bottom of the page to download an application manual, complete with cutting, fastening, etc... tips and it also has the material specs listed.

Thanks!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

I was not able to open the PDF manual but I'm certain this is a high quality melamine. Whether the sheet material weighs 125 lbs. in the 5x10 sheet or the laminate weight is 125 is hard to say without reading more.

Will 5/8" thick be strong enough for a 3W x 8L x 30"H cage (or 3W x 10L x 30H if it comes in 5 x 10 sheets) with sliding glass door front?

I have only built one 8' long cage from melamine and that was with 3/4" material. That particular cage came out well and was much stronger than I expected. I think 5/8" would be good enough but it might take a little more work. Including a grid system in the ceiling might not be a bad idea. Also, I'm not normally one to say that dado and rabbet cuts are absolutely necessary, but in this case I would go ahead and include them.

I can get 4 x 8 sheets of oak or birch plywood for $39 ea. Would take more work to finish inside & out, though.

And that's probably not the highest quality melamine. The nice thing about finishing yourself, though, is that you have a repairable finish if things ever go wrong. But even with melamine some epoxies will stick to it as well as melamine paint. And vinyl film can always be laminated to it.

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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Thank you very much for the fast reply (Johnny Lightning)!

Good point about easy repair of plywood and ceiling supports. My main concern was the melamine sagging from it's weight due to its composition. Wouldn't take much to add a few support beams under the ceiling of it.

I can't remember the thickness of the oak & birch plywood. It was either 5/8 or 3/4. If the melamine is 5 x 10 I might go ahead and go with it to get the extra cage size for about the same cost. If its 4 x 8 I'll probably go with the plywood. I'll post back this evening, after I find out if the melamine is 4x8 or 5x10, to let ya know what I decided.

Don't be a perfectionist, like me! It will drive you plumb crazy!!!

Thanks, sport!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

Chris is always the first to respond, he is very devoted. LOL

I agree the 5/8 can probally hold the weight but I would still recommend 2 cages bolted together vs on large cage. This would be the best solution for the size alloted. With a single melimine shelf or even ply shelf the support needed to support the single span of 8' would be more than I think you would want. At 8' I would use a 12" litter dam or you could subsitute that with a thinner dam but you would need additional lower framework to suppor the animal intended in this case a large burmese.

No matter what you use to make the cage melamine or birch ply I would recommend an additional interior layer of protection, like we have discussed. So in the end its the exterior you are really choosing. If you want the simple yet manufactured look of the melamine than go that route, or if you would like to custom stain match furniture you already have or just a personal favorite stain than go with the wood ply either birch or oak. To me its not the cost its the end items appearance that makes my choice for me.
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

Hey Jeremy!
Regardless of what material I use I've decided to make it in two parts like you suggested. And I'm also definitely going to go with an extra layer of protection. I didn't have time to find out about the size of the melamine today but I'll stop by there in the morning.

All day all I've been able to think about is how dang heavy this thing's gonna be. I've planned on putting it on rollers and eventually making a cabinet/base for it. Now I'm checking to see how much more it'll cost to build a wood frame with insulated walls and use something like expanded pvc for the interior walls. Depends on whether or not the cost outweighs the weight (pardon the pun).

Sorry to be such a pain to ya'll but there's nobody around here to bounce ideas off of. At least, nobody with the experience ya'll have. It's not often that I go putting $400 into a snake cage and I want to get it right the first time. I could never repay ya'll for what your input has been worth to me. This forum is blessed to have the two of you as members!

Thanks a bunch!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

I also think the two-part design is a good choice. If you have access to 5x5 or 5x10 stock and want to make a 10' cage then I'd say you'd be crazy not to use it.

Also, I need to clarify my previous reply. I think I said something like "and that's probably not the highest quality melamine". Of course I meant plywood as that's what the conversation had shifted to. And like Jeremy said, an additional layer of protection, especially something to could be repaired or replaced seems like a very good idea. This is true regardless of what material you use.

Regarding plywood vs. melamine, I would not get too wrapped up in the weight difference. This cage is going to be heavy regardless so I would say use what you want. Like Jeremy said, it really boils down to what look you want. Certainly melamine will be cheaper but remember that with any cage there are fixed costs that have nothing to do with the carcass material. Any cage will need glass, door hardware, ventilation, fasteners, glue, and some misc. things I'm forgetting.

One thing that can be done to save weight is to build your basic cage carcass (or two carcass' in your case) and then cut large squares out of the all of the panels of the cage, leaving you with just a basic skeleton. Then a more rigid liner can be used to line the interior, perhaps expanded PVC.

Since your cage is going to be pretty large the the squares you cut out might actually be useful for another project.

To save money you could even build individual frames out of ripped sections of plywood. This is a little more complex, however, and requires pretty accurate cutting.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

I found out that the Maple-patterned Duramine (melamine) was in sheets of 5/8 x 4 x 8. I liked Jeremy's point about easy repair, combined with the beauty of real wood, so I've decided to go with the 3/4 oak or birch plywood. I've searched high & low and can't find anything but 4 x 8 sheets, nothing close to 5 x 5.

I'm going to see if the guy I know that owns a cabinet shop will cut it to size for me. I'll also ask him if he can get me anything better, since the plywood I'm talking about is at Lowes & Home Depot. Like you said, Chris, it may not be of good quality. According to the specs it's supposed to be milled and no voids (supposed to be).

I'll definitely be making the cage in 2 parts.

I'm thinking of painting the interior with several coats of a new exterior paint that Behr has out that has the primer mixed in with it. It's supposed to be good stuff. I'm still gonna line the bottom and so far up the walls with something. Still searching for something available around here. The best thing I've found so far is some type of lexan, acrylic, or plexiglass. The sign shop I stopped at today only had the adhesive-backed vinyl film. I'm going to check with another one the next few days.

Anyone know of a reputable online business to get some expanded pvc from? All the hardware stores look at me like I'm crazy when I ask about it.

What about Wilsonart? Or, vinyl flashing? Anyone familiar with it? Is it worthwhile?

I've been so stressed the last few days trying to decide what material to use that while in a hardware store yesterday I walked by the showers/tubs and said to myself, "Heck with all this, I'll just by one of them large shower stalls, lay it on it's back and modify it." If I could've found one with without shelves or rails I probably would've snatched it up. LOL!!!

I'm planning on getting started the first of next week so it won't be long, now.

Thanks!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

I would definately go with a higher quality plywood, although you do occasionally get good stuff at Lowes, etc. for $40 or under.

However, I strongly recommend against exterior paint. Believe it or not exterior paint is LESS water and abrasion resistant than most interior paints. The reason is that exterior products have to be soft/flexible enough to withstand the natural expansion and contraction that wood sees outdoors.

If you want a solid color I'd consider formice, vinyl film, or linoleum.

But if you want the look of wood then why not on the inside as well? Just pick a clear coat of some sort. Find out what clear coat your cabinet friend uses and let me know. I'll let you know if it's suitable for your cage.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

>>Anyone know of a reputable online business to get some expanded pvc from?

Only sign or plastic distributors will carry expanded PVC. You can order it online but shipping will be expensive. Stick with local or find something else.

>>What about Wilsonart? Or, vinyl flashing?

Wilsonart laminate will be great I'm sure. Your cabinet guy may even have an account and can install it for you. It really depends on how much money you want to spend and how simple you want to keep things. Again, the big problem with a laminate like Wilsonart is that it is not readily repairable. But on the other hand, the chances if it needing repair is unlikely.

I would rather use vinyl flooring over vinyl flashing.

One thing you really need to keep in mind is that there is no perfect design or material, especially for large cages. What you choose really depends a lot upon your personal philosophy about such things.

Me, I like to use materials that are either super-durable or super-easy to repair. It is rare that you find both so you simply have to consider your options.

Hope I have not confused you further.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Nah, you aren't confusing me, at all. My perfectionism is driving me crazy but I think you pretty well cleared that up with your "nothing's perfect" statement, which makes me feel a little better.

I'd love to keep the interior natural wood and since I like light-colored or natural stains it wouldn't be too dark. It's just that I've seen posts about poly fumes remaining for long periods.

I'm at the point where money's not gonna make much of a difference in my decisions. I think I can coat the bottom and lower level of walls with 2-4x8 sheets of Wilsonart, and at $47 per sheet, if it's good stuff, consider it done. It's time for me to quit my stinkin' thinkin' and get movin'.

You guys have sure been a class act putting up with me and I deeply appreciate it. If you ever have a question about floorcovering or computers give me a yell.

HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

I can understand the perfectionist part, although I'm not anything like I used to be.

There are numerous clear coats that can be used in reptile enclosures. Even oil-based poly can work but I recommend against it for too many reasons to list.

If you want the wood grain look on the inside, by all means make it happen. Again, you just have to choose carefully.

Find out what clear coat your cabinet guy uses and get back to me. In fact, why don't you start another thread at the top of the forum.

Also, what state is your cabinet guy located in? I might have an idea of what he will have access to.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

I live in the Tri-state (NC, TN, GA) area of southwest, NC (Murphy). The cabinet shop, "Ken's Cabinets" is in TN (Ducktown, which is just outside of Turtletown. Which ain't too far from Fightingtown. Seriously. LOL!)

It'll be a couple of days before I can get by there. When I find out I'll start a new thread. I think starting a new thread is a good idea. Some forums frown on it but with this forum's layout I think it's best.

Thanks!
HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

I forgot to mention that the subfloor material that I use only comes in 1/4 inch thickness so I don't consider it to be feasible. If it was available in 1/2 in. or more I'd probably go with it. Wouldn't be cost effective to double it.

HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

Dang, my mind ain't what it used to be! Not that it was ever much to begin with. BTW, my 3 closest friends seem normal, so that leaves me. (See sig.)

Those heat panels aren't what I was thinking of. I saw those types but there's just something about them that I'm not sold on them, yet, at least. I'll look into them some more, though because I definitely want something that's going to work good. I liked the "35-year" possiblity of them, for sure.

What I was thinking of looks like a little electric heater and I'm thinking that they were fairly cool to the touch. Can't remember what they were called or where I saw 'em.
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.