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when i was using a 24/7 heat/light cycle i noticed my ackie would come out an hour or so sooner then the day before. it didnt matter if it was day or night time and this cycle just continued on and on. to me it seemed like he had no idea what time it was and his biological clock was off. can anyone explain this behaviour? particularly Frank?

ive since switched to 14/10 light cycle and he now has a schedule. he comes out a few minutes after the basking light turns on and he goes to sleep a few hours before it goes out.
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-Marshall
1.1.0 ball pythons
0.0.1 red ackie

I dont think that really means much. I think that you are over concerned.(which is good that you are concerned) Of course im no expert at all. But when i first got my monitor i used a 14/8 hour light cycle and a red bulb for at night. . At first he was up exploring at completely random times. Sometimes hed be out in the morning, sometime the afternoon, somtimes the night, and sometimes hed burrow for 2 days straight without coming out at all.

After the first couple weeks i noticed him doing what you just described. He would wake an hour later then the day before every day. Then he just stopped doing it, and it went back to random. Somtimes morning, somtimes afternoon ect. (this was all with 14/8 cycle)

Then i heard FR saying he used 24/7 light cycles, and given that he has more experience then many with monitors, i listened and did the same. Eventually my monitor worked himself into a set schedule. To this present day he wakes in the morning and eats the pinkies i leave him before i go to work. Then he explores his tank, and what not... this is his free time cause im at work and no one goes in or out of my room.(im not home but my mom has watched him and described this to me). By the time i get home hes basking, from 3p.m. to evening he just chills and adjusts basking elevations. Hell start at the top and work his way down to the floor, just absorbing the light. Then he goes into his water bowl for a while, and then he heads into his burrows. But i didnt choose this schedule for him, he chose it himself(with 24/7 light cycel), and who knows maybe someday he'll change it again.

Whats the point in all this mumbo jumbo. Well, frankly, i dont think the monitors care about what cycles we give them at all. My monitor seems to choose his own schedule regardless of what light cycle i choose to force on to him, and i have noticed his schedule is most sturdy when the light is on all the time, and the food is always there in the morning. If you want to give him a day/night cycle then do it, but make sure he always has a hot basking spot.

But remember that leaving the light on all the time couldnt possibly upset his biological clock because with the light on all the time he can choose his days and his nights.(and when he is in his burrows i would imagine its dark.) If anything is going to upset his clock its going to be forcing him into a situation where he doesnt have a choice. You might say "but in nature theres day and night and they cant choose." Well trying to simulate nature in our little cages is completely impossible, so the best thing we can do for our monitors is give them a choice.
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2.2.1 Bearded Dragons
1.0.0 Lemon Pastel Ball Pythons (NERD Line)
0.0.1 Water Monitors
1.0.0 Pastel Red Tailed boa Het. for Albino
0.0.2 Yellow Ackie Monitors
And Counting...

for two opposite types of people(keepers) Please try to understand this.

Putting lites on a certain schedule, normally is TELLING the monitor what its suppose to do. The brains of this outfit is the keeper, he thinks he knows more then the monitor and its his responsibility to tell the monitor when its suppose to do what.

Which is totally the opposite of leaving the lites on 24/7. In this case, the keeper/s have faith that the monitors know what they need and will get what they need when they need it.

In your case, the monitor comes out when it has a need, not when the lite is turned on. This is the advantage of this setup. The monitor should "know" what it needs and when. It does not have to wait on a human to fullfill its needs. Remember, animals do not use our clocks. 24 hrs may mean something entirely different to them.

Indeed nature has a sun cycle, that tells the monitors what to do when, but nature provides lots of alternative heat sources that can be used 24/7. In nature, monitors pick from a varity of heat sources at a varity of times, as they need and has they are provided. If these needs are not filled, then the monitors do not progress. They either wait until they can fill those needs or die. Nature does not care which.

Unfortunately, the keepers that think they have to tell the monitors what to do, forget or just do not understand, that monitors get their heat from many ways and to bask in the lite(sun) is only one of them. So these keepers are limiting what the monitors are trying to accomplish. Nature and the sun, cover many many many(can't write enough manys) bases, a lite bulb only covers one. Cheers

what heat sources, in the wild are as bright as a flood light, and last all night long?

i understand what you mean by alternative heat sources during the night such as snakes using the warm blacktop for an hour or so after dark, but as far as i know no source in the wild would stay at 130 degrees all night long, much less be bright as a flood light.

i dont see how forcing the monitor to use a bright area to warm up when needed (if needed at all at night) is allowing the monitor to choose.

SHvar, how can you compare a flood light to an alarm clock or night light down the hall? everyone here knows darn well flood lights are much brighter then any alarm clock or a nightlight.

Robert, if you would have quoted the whole sentence and not just part of it it would has said that it seemed to me he didnt know what time it was, but instead you feel the need to chop it up and make it sound like i was making assumptions of what my monitor was feeling and felt the need to try and argue with me over it. very mature, next time please only reply to my observations if you have something pertaining to the conversation, much less what i say for crying out loud.

Frank, can you answer my original question of what you think the behaviour he was exibiting is? im interested in hearing it. just now all you said was basically how not giving them 24/7 heat and light is a poor husbandry decision. i didnt really see a clear answer to what you thought it was in there anywhere.
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-Marshall
1.1.0 ball pythons
0.0.1 red ackie

you think my monitor is trying to avoid me? i would say that would be a valid oppinion if it wasnt for him coming out an hour earlier every day and going around the day and night in circles with his cycle. it wasnt like he was soming out one day, then coming out at night the next. it definitely seemed like his biological clock was off.

also, he eats mealworms out of my hand freely and climbs up my arm when i put a mealworm on it. avoiding? most certainly not.
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-Marshall
1.1.0 ball pythons
0.0.1 red ackie

"Robert, if you would have quoted the whole sentence and not just part of it it would has said that it seemed to me he didnt know what time it was, but instead you feel the need to chop it up and make it sound like i was making assumptions of what my monitor was feeling and felt the need to try and argue with me over it. very mature, next time please only reply to my observations if you have something pertaining to the conversation, much less what i say for crying out loud."

You are implying that monitors run on a clock, they don't, period. They don't become active at 6am, every day, they become active because they need to for food and/or conditions allow them to.

"you think my monitor is trying to avoid me? i would say that would be a valid oppinion if it wasnt for him coming out an hour earlier every day and going around the day and night in circles with his cycle. it wasnt like he was soming out one day, then coming out at night the next. it definitely seemed like his biological clock was off."

I would say that since you know exactly when your ackie is out, and that you only have an ackie point more to that than anything you said.

"also, he eats mealworms out of my hand freely and climbs up my arm when i put a mealworm on it. avoiding? most certainly not."

The fact you even think this is significant is telling. I've got a w.c. jobi that hates to even know there are people around, you know what, he'll still come out for food.

--Robert

honestly how can his biological clock be off. There is no light in the burrows. Do you think that monitors in the wild sit outside their burrows looking off into the sunset thinking " i'm so tired, oh i cant wait for that sun to go down so i can go to sleep." Do you think that if the monitor comes out of its burrows too early and its still dark it thinks "Oh, its not light out, i should be sleeping."

Why are you asking FR what this behavior is? Do you think hes doctor doo-little or something? Your monitor is coming out an hour earlier every day because.................
............HE FEELS LIKE COMING OUT AN HOUR EARLIER EVERY DAY. His reasons are his own not yours.
I already stated that my monitor did the same thing only it was an hour later every day, and this was with 14/8 cycle. Why? I dunno, i trust that my monitor knows more then me.
I've had my montior a very short time but im realizing the best thing you can do is give it every option possible and observe.

You learn alot. However you dont want to do that, you want to ask all the experts questions expecting a textbook answer... but then you dont want to listen when they give you their best guess.
I dont care about the wild and what "God" alows in nature. I care about the husbandry of my monitor. And if the experts (especially FR who is responsible for you even being able to own an ackie in the u.s.) say "24/7 = Better results." then thats what im going to do. You should do the same. And you think your monitor has worked himself into a schedule because of the 14/8 lighting? No, you worked him into that schedule. If anyone is messing with his biological clock its you.

Oh and nature doesnt offer a choice with day and night right? Well it also doesnt offer a choice with seasons. Maybe you should look up australias seasonal changes and try to simulate that as well.
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2.2.1 Bearded Dragons
1.0.0 Lemon Pastel Ball Pythons (NERD Line)
0.0.1 Water Monitors
1.0.0 Pastel Red Tailed boa Het. for Albino
0.0.2 Yellow Ackie Monitors
And Counting...

"Maybe you should look up australias seasonal changes and try to simulate that as well"

i said i like to give them as many choices as i can. some are out of my hands. no need to be argumentative.

if i seemed agrumentive, thats not what i intend to do. Sometimes i just dont understand though. When i first got my monitor i used moss for substrate. I was told by the experts not to use this, so i didnt. I used a day and night cycle, was told to use a 24/7 light on cycle, so i did. I handled my monitor, i actually believed it enjoyed being petted, was told not to do this so i stopped.

My point with the seasons was that no matter how hard we try we cannot simulate nature, or even come close. Are tanks are not nature, not even close. And over a period of many years varanid keepers realized this more in more to the point where there husbandry techniques evolved to almost opposite of nature.

And over these years these keepers found that their husbandry that is nothing like nature has great sucess in captivity, which is also nothing like nature. These keepers went through alot of trouble for their own interest in varanids, and unintentionally paved the road for new varanid enthusiests everywhere.

And now these old time keepers are generous enough to share with us their husbandry, which saves us alot of time. But we seem to want to make it more difficult. We are making it more difficult for the experts trying to share their knowledge, we are making it more difficult for us to learn from them, and most importantly we are making it more difficult for our monitors to live in captivity. And believe me i know, because early on i was told not to handle my monitor, and i argued this subject. Because i had owned my monitor for more then a month which made me an expert.

Then i just listened, and stopped handling her, and you know what? My monitor started to calm down and adjust much better. So now, when those well known keepers speak, i listen, cause they ARE RIGHT. Captive monitors are so different from wild monitors we should think of them as a different species.

Wild monitors: Hatch and are left to fend for themselves. The fist month of their lives their chances of survival are 50/50. They must avoid predators, they have to hunt for food, they must deal with parasites, they must adjust themselves to bask and burrow at certain times(day/night), deal with seasonal changes ect.

Captive monitors: Hatch and are immediatly catored to. They do not have to avoid predators, they do not have to hunt, they do not have to deal with parasites, and are free from seasonal changes.

So if we give them safety from predators, provide them with food, safety from parasites, keep them free from seasonal changes (unless for breeding) ect. Then why would we force them into a day and night cycle, when we are told by the experienced that a 24/7 cycle is much more succesful?
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2.2.1 Bearded Dragons
1.0.0 Lemon Pastel Ball Pythons (NERD Line)
0.0.1 Water Monitors
1.0.0 Pastel Red Tailed boa Het. for Albino
0.0.2 Yellow Ackie Monitors
And Counting...

first of all it's good to take advice from very experienced keepers. but remember that FR is not the only very experienced keeper. i'll give him credit for producing the most babies, but he keeps many more lizards than any one else. of all the highly succussful keepers (as far as producing babies) i know, FR and his gang are the only ones i know of that use 24/7 light. light cycles produce great results. on the other forum that i frequent, one guy is up to his arm pits with lace babies another is swimming in dumerils babies. both use light cycles. and i wouldn't say that they're forcing them into it, if anything it's a 24/7 light cycle that you could say "forced"
i know that you can't simulate nature in your little cage. but i think somethings should have a resemblance. we don't know how important the pineal eye is yet, but according to scientists it's important for the production of brain chemicals depending on the amount of light. so for me...since i care so much about the well being of my animals, i feel much better about giving light cycles. again this is only my opinion.

cheers
shay

you dont have to use the 24/7 light cycle and they are not saying you have to. they are saying it works and it works well. so why not use it? as you know you can have success with other light cycles. you just do what you want and see if it works. if it works who really cares what others think of it.

try a red light, it will be dark and will still have choices for temp. from my understanding FR just uses the same light so he doesnt have to change the dang lights on and off, back and forth. but it works just as well as anything else.

Sean

it has nothing to do with whether the lizards breed or not. i'm well aware that 10,000 babies can be produced with 24/7 lights. and if that's all you care about then so be it. my point was directed at the general health of the lizard. the pineal eye on top of their head is always open and receiving light when it's present. i think the safe way to go is a light cycle. i not only care about producing babies, i also care about the mental health of the lizards. nothing in my opinion has been proven to say if 24/7 lighting is safe and has no effect on seritonin and melatonin levels in the lizards brain. so i say why not use a light cycle? it also works very well. and if you want refs i can provide.
and just as a side note... psychos, bipolar, and other chemically unbalanced people have no problem breeding, and i would imagine the same goes for animals.

heat is not a problem when the lights go out in my cage. i have a CHE on 24/7.

cheers
shay

im not trying ot dissagree with you. go ahead an do that. its better to be safe than sorry i agree. we all do what we want with our reptiles. nobody can make you. i know people have success with both methods. i use both light cycles.

i'm just trying to say that their 24/7 light cycle is an opinion and it changes. they never said it was the best way to go. its just a good method and they try to support why. thats it.

sean

penile eye thing? Is it compared to the heat recepters on snakes? And what do they know about monitor seratonin? If theres and article out there on this refer me.
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2.2.1 Bearded Dragons
1.0.0 Lemon Pastel Ball Pythons (NERD Line)
0.0.1 Water Monitors
1.0.0 Pastel Red Tailed boa Het. for Albino
0.0.2 Yellow Ackie Monitors
And Counting...

n/p

it's been a while since i read about that. let me look it up and i'll get back to you

pineal eye is a light receptor that is directly connected to the brain. if you look at a lizard skull you will see a pin hole right in the middle of it's head. this is where the organ passes through. as far as the scientific data i'll get back to you as i said on the other post.

here's one article that explains it.
to find out more info, google it.

cheers
shay
Link

Cycles etc. Can you sleep with a night light down the hall running at night, or a digital alarm clock running? These 2 sources make very little light intensity, also basking lights make very little intensity, this means they do not effect your monitor or any lizards sleep pattern or when they choose to sleep.
Not long ago Sam Sweet posted about light intensity and how it effects monitors in the wild. He mentioned about daylight intensity, sunset, and darkness, compared to indoor lighting, and to high intensity lights such as mercury vapor, etc. During the late afternoon when the sun will soon be down and the light intensity is still several times higher than what any normal lightbulb can produce the monitors in the wild are asleep, many in the open. Here are two examples of how basking lights do not effect their lives nor their sleep. Also above all else keep in mind that monitors and all lizards have eyelids, they are not snakes.
This was taken inside the cage with the 20 watt flourescent bulbs in the ceiling fixture outside the cage on, the only place for the light to enter is in the 5x3ft window used as a cage door, note how bright flourescent bulbs are for intensity.

By simply turning the light switch on the wall, to the off position and no longer having the 20 watt flourescent bulbs running, but still having 5- 45 watt halogen outdoor floodbulbs still running non-stop for basking lights, notice how dark the cage is.

Also keep in mind if you still are unsure that your monitor can sleep or set its own schedule without you forcing it to adapt to your schedule, and above all else, monitors sleep in burrows, under logs, in cracks, crevices, hollow tree branches, etc.

Interesting observation.
It sounds like you are seeing the effects of the animal's internal biological clock. We all have them. The same thing happens to humans who are exposed to 24/7. Our biological clocks are not perfect timekeepers. They are noramlly reset daily by direct or indirect sunlight. But when their is no variation in the external light cycle, they begin to lose/gain time each day.

"he had no idea what time it was"

That would totally piss my argus off, the male is a real cheapskate and hates to miss the early bird all you can eat specials.

The bad part about having more than a couple (or one) monitor(s), is it makes it painfully obvious how wrong it is to be basing anything off of one monitor's actions.

I'd say your monitor is trying to avoid you, but that's just me I guess.

--Robert

regardless if monitors have eye lids, they have a light receptor that's always open on top of their head... pineal eye. according to studies i've read about it this organ is responsible for the production of seritonin and melatonin. these are key ingrediants for a good nights sleep and for balanced brain chemicals. i'm sure you know what people are like with inbalanced braing chemicals...depression, bipolar disorder, psychotic episodes...
why not play it safe and give the reptiles a day night schedule like they would in the wild? must we give the lizards choices for everything? i don't think so. i like to give them as many choices as i can according to choices God aloud them to have in the wild. they don't get to choose day/night schedules in the wild...so i'll simulate it for them. they do how ever get to choose heat and humidity levels, so i try to provide a healthy gradient of each so they can choose. that's one example. i may not have bred 10,000 babies from this method, but i believe it's healthier. my disclaimer -my opinion... not a proven fact

cheers
shay

And response, it was all about what excess sunlight helps to possibly lead to in humans, not in reptiles, therefore it has no reality here.
Read above where I mentioned scientifically proven fact about light intensities, among household lights, and the sun.
A while back Sam Sweet explained this very good, he mentioned about monitors (something he studies for a living)sleeping in the open during the time before the sun goes down and the light intensity is still 5-10 times higher than what any artificial indoor lighting is capable of producing, so how would any basking or cage lighting effect them on any schedule?
The answer is it wont, it cant, and never will, a bulb is a bulb is a bulb, any way you look at it, its not the sun. The sun is the sun and never will be a bulb.
Now as mentioned by Robert Bushner, if you were to compare how a few or several monitors react not one or two, you might be able to see that what they see is a monitor that wishes to be left alone by its keeper.
Oh, and one important point, if you are to make a comment about someone with 10,000 sucessful breedings compared to yourself with none, how could you advise someone on the basics of husbandry, light cycles and how it would affect a monitor or theoretically affect them and how they are wrong, when it takes seeing basic life events occuring in captivity to see how light, heat, food effects them in any way?
On another forum someone who does not post here any more brags about how the most sucessful keeper of varanids is wrong because in their mind it seems like a puppy mill or chicken house operation because he is so sucessful at keeping them, yet him and a few others with similar comments cannot keep them alive for long and do not see any normal life events themselves, its a jealously issue and nothing to do with reality. Yet in reality what does it take to get a chicken to lay eggs? To be healthy, so what does that tell you about those who theorize against what he this keeper does?

Because they do not have any understanding of what it takes to allow a healthy monitor, they miss what 10,000 breedings mean. By the way, who has had that????

They, this mr johnson and others forget this important fact. It took two monitors to produce each and every copulation. These two monitors were raised from a hatchling, in most cases, HERE or there, depending who you are talking about. It took decent care to raise each and everyone of these two adults.

Of course if supported each pair will product more then one clutch. If you were talking about me, That number may be a little off. We have produced several thousand clutches. Lets conservatively say 2 thousand over 16 years. You said breedings, so each clutch takes about 10 breedings or copulations(an average) So i we muliply 10 cops times 2000, that comes out to 20,000 breedings, so I guess you could not have been taking about me. hahahahahahaha, just having fun with numbers.

So those breedings, the number you mentioned or the number I mentioned, represent the hatching, the raising, the cleaning of cages, all the stuff, all here on this forum do.

What these fine folks love to ignore is, each clutch represents the successful raising of a male and female. Two individuals, just like the individuals they hope to raise and support. The following clutches from a pair, represents the successful support to allow those parents to return to breeding condition. The number of clutches they have per year and per life, is directly related to successful support.

That this fine folks state or allow themselves to think any animal reproduces in poor conditions or while in poor condition makes them very very ignorant of basic biology. Monitors are not one and done animals. That is they are not like some insects that reproduce only once in their lifes. These insects give priority to reproduction at the expense of their life. Monitors have a life priority, that is, they will not reproduce if it endangers their life. They have the ability to halt or suspend the reproductive processes, if it impacts on their ability to survive. That means, monitors use energy in excess of what it takes to keep them alive, TO reproduce.

If you remember of of those suedo science boys once said stress is what causes varanids to reproduce. Thats when I coined them suedo science boys.

Anyway, SHVar, your right about those folks, their own personal demons is what causes them to attack those who are successful.

So, SHVar, what became of those young ackies, I remember you said they bred, what was the result? Cheers

I found 2 clutches too late, they had been underground too long. Shows that it can happen young and happen fast without much trouble. soon they will hopefully be in a bigger better cage, Im going to experiment a bit with this one. Right now Im reducing my collection a bit.

There was a study done on people that not having the lights dim enough could affect people's ability to achieve a full REM (rapid eye movement) cycle. It's not just lights but loud noice can also affect this. It is said that when people don't achieve a full REM cycle, certain hormones in the brains (in the endocrine gland, I believe) are not produce in the brains; thus, affecting the body and weaken it. That is why people working at night and sleep during the day develop a whole host of health problem. At least, if you are going to turn the light on for your monitor 24/7, make sure it's very dim...like the red and green bulb. However I'm not sure how the lights being on 24/7 affects monitor, but better safe than sorry. And by the way, reptiles will breed even if your set-up wasn't so great.

"And by the way, reptiles will breed even if your set-up wasn't so great"
So if this is true why is it that so very few monitors are breeding in captivity, after all many have this goal, many have 2 or 3 living together, many cant understand why its not happening. So as I said on another response, if your not seeing normal life events how can you begin to compare or claim something will cause health problems. Also just like many others have tried, if you are not seeing something that they do with no outside influences such as reproduction how do you compare or claim that what someone who is seeing this happen is going to cause health problems, also people are people, monitors are monitors. Oh, we dont have a pineal eye, and where has there ever been a proven study on what the pineal eye actually does, not just guessing at what it does.
The point is that if you are to claim that lights or any feature of someones husbandry is the cause of health problems and it doesnt happen that makes your claim to be false, thats like me saying that using an umbrella thats pink on sunny days will cause brain cancer