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Kerby/Cali king keepers/breeders I need!

ZFelicien Sep 12, 2006 02:30 PM

Six(6) pix to aid...

Ok I got this Lavender cali king at Daytona, it passed the day after I got it home, the breeder agreed replaced it … I got that replacement today and it’s not the same mutaiton so I’d like to know what mutation is it?

It’s rather close in appearance to the original snake but the eye color is red almost as red as the T- albino… this snake is more a lav. Color with red eyes and the original was Purple with Dark ruby eyes… just a ruby eyed cali maybe?

I may be over my head here but could it be a 2x HomoZ Lavender X Amel (T-)???

Lavender from Daytona

“Lavender” replacement

T- (amel banana)

Pulled the original from the freezer for some comparison shots

Thanx for any help

~ZF

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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

Replies (9)

zach_whitman Sep 12, 2006 07:24 PM

...that nobody really has all of the different "hypo ish" cal king genes figured out right. It is very hard to tell just by phenotype. I am hearing constantly about people breeding animals that they think are the same genetic morph and getting normal appearing double hets! Then when they breed the hets together they can't even tell which trait is which sometimes!!!!!

To me, your original snake looks much darker the most lavenders I have seen. It almost resembles the BEBs. However there is a lot of variation in all of these traits and it is even more difficult to discern them as hatchlings. Who knows what you've got now. Looks like a lav to me... Where did you get them from? can you get pics of the parents???

FR Sep 13, 2006 10:25 AM

In a post below, Kerby showed a pic of a snake he called a JR lavender. I mentioned, it did not appear to be what JR and I called lavenders way back then.

The dead snake is what we called a lavender. Now, back then, we did not have all these names attached, like the T 's or T-'s. Or co dominates. All those names came after to explain what WE were producing. We simply called them by who was selling them. hahahahahahahahaha.

The point is, they are only names and do not tell you what your going to see. While these names do follow a LOOSE pattern, they are not exact.

In this case, the dead one looks like a lavender, so its logical to call it that. The replacement, is a very non lavender appearing individual. The question is, do you call them by what you think their genes are, or do you call them by how they fit in a catagory??????? This is important. Consider this, a german shepard is a german shepard, but most do not fit the discription and would not be allowed in a dog show. The reason is, they do not appear like the discription of a german sheppard.

This example is very accurate as, these dogs are not will natural species or better yet, wild species population types. These are captive produced mutations(like dogs) and often crossed with all sorts of other genetic lines(like dogs) Therefore to fit a discription. How well it meets the discription is how good a specimen it is. The dead one is a lavender, the other one may be of the same bloodline but does not meet the discription of a lavender.

To better understand this, when we find a wild snake, you make a discription of that animal and then if its consistant with others in the area, you call it a delray beach king(just an example) So from that point on, these kings have a mini name, based on a subpopulation. With captive producted animals that have been crossed to make a form, or derived from a mutation(non-normal characteristic) You can only call them by their appearance.

Lets look at your two snakes. Lavender is a T , that is, that mutation is causing a reduction in trionsine(sp) So it does not have to be exactly the same. The second individual has much less T, then the dead one. Therefore has much less melinin.

Both snakes have a consistant head and nuchal pattern, they could be of the same bloodling. BUT, those two snakes have different types of body patterns. The live one is of a desert king type. The bands do not taper on the sides, again, consistant with desert kings. The dead ones bands have a pronounced taper on the sizes, this is typical of coastal kings, the original lavender was a coastal. This indicates, outcrossing of the lavender gene.

Now consider to be a type(something named) The type should only produce a like type, not some of the same types and others of any other types. If it produces other types, then its a cross and no longer a type. With all other captive animals, this is the rule. a type/strain/form, must produce like offspring. For instance, a T- albino(my line) only produces T- offspring. Of course, they can be of many local types and apparently of other types too, goins and easterns, etc, but its still only produces T-'s.

If that trait is crossed to T , and then those offspring produce members of both or more, they are no longer T- OR T , they are mutations that are not consistant.

All in all, if the first one was what you wanted, then you got screwed. You bought it because it looked like something you wanted. The second one does not appear to be what you wanted. I would ask for one like the one you purchased. (i guess all I needed was this last paragraph) Cheers

FunkyRes Sep 13, 2006 01:53 PM

I agree with what you said, though I do think we need a way to identify the gene that causes the appearance, wether it is from a persons name who bred them once upon a time or not.

This may take some time because I'm sure some of them have more than one lavender causing gene in them, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were some we haven't identified yet. But the different lines that people are breeding should be tested to see if they are the same gene or not. A cooperative database for breeders to use would be a good thing. I think zoos already do this in their breeding projects.

The lavender I just bought, they didn't identify the strain. I should have asked, I might e-mail them and see if they know. It is possible that she is also het for another "type" of lavender, and maybe even (though unlikely) is an expression of several.

I'm going to breed with her with a WC normal quite possibly next season, the WC normal most likely has no lavender genes hiding in it at all. The hets produced I'll hold back some of them, and try breeding them with various known strain lavenders (I think there are three, three that I know of, if blue eyed blonde are different gene than the two different types kerby has). That hopefully will let me identify her.

I don't think they could easily be identified by color because I would think that the genes that make up the different colors in normal (from a caramal brown to dark brown to brown-black to black) would result in different lavender look from the same lavender gene, correct?

I'm assuming she isn't blue eyed blonde, so if I buy one baby male of each of other two strains to breed with the female hets, assuming only one clutch produces lavender I would know what the female I just bough is, though that won't rule out HET for the other strain.

But the different genes should be identified and named, wether it is named for the person originally working with them or not, I don't really care. The person might care, in which case something else should be used.

-=-
It's too bad the OPs first lav died, it was a very good looking snake.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1 WC; 0.0.10 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Aaron Sep 13, 2006 04:36 PM

Frank, do you know the locality where the original JR Lavenders are from?
The JR Lavenders look alot like the Merker line "hypos" which are from El Dorado county (northern California Sierra foothills). The Merker line "hypos" occur naturally in the wild but it is a small percentage of the population I am told. I have also seen wild Cal Kings from near San Jose that look very much like the Merker line "hypos".

markg Sep 13, 2006 08:11 PM

Aaron/Frank
I found an adult Cal king in the Santa Barbara foothills years ago that looked just like the hypo Merker snakes. That was before I knew that I could of had my name attached to that locality morph. Lavender, MG strain, Santa Barbara $200.00.

I suppose this coloring pops up now and again in certain regions.

Mark

>>Frank, do you know the locality where the original JR Lavenders are from?
>>The JR Lavenders look alot like the Merker line "hypos" which are from El Dorado county (northern California Sierra foothills). The Merker line "hypos" occur naturally in the wild but it is a small percentage of the population I am told. I have also seen wild Cal Kings from near San Jose that look very much like the Merker line "hypos".

FR Sep 14, 2006 01:41 AM

Hi, I believe but am not sure, it was from SoCal. I was told, oh a very long time ago.

Also, as you mentioned, lavenders were not all that uncommon. I found them in all the locals I collected, something like 1 in 75 or so. Wait, I never found them in desert kings.

What is odd is, you do not see that here in around here, it seems to be a coastal thing.Cheers

Aaron Sep 15, 2006 01:42 AM

.

zach_whitman Sep 13, 2006 11:32 PM

about the german shepard.

When you said the original lav was a coastal, did you mean the dead one in the post above, or the original specimens that first showed the trait?

bluerosy Sep 12, 2006 09:26 PM

I am sorry to hear that Zenny. As we both know that was the best one anyone has seen at the Expo. That replacement does not hold a candle to it.

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