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I will be switching my V. melinus' (Pollux) substrate over to leaves very soon and am wondering about the type to use. I have only heard of oak leaves being used by members of this forum. Is there a reason oak is better than others? I'll most likely be going with oak anyway, but was just curious about the differences. Thanks for your time!


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1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger, Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)
1.2.0 Thayeri Kingsnakes (Korben, Leeloo, Artax)
2.2.0 California Kingsnakes (Beetlejuice, Kang, Maraca, Kodos)

Hi Aubrey,

I am exploring other types of leaves myself. I have really only tried oak leaves, so I can't really suggest other kinds of leaves. I think there are other kinds that would work. Hopefully some of the more experienced folks can give us some insight on this.

The question is not about what works. I would imagine all sorts of different types of leaves work. The question is, decomposing. The thin leafs like maple and such decompose very very quickly. Oaks seem to last a long time, but they too will eventually decompose.

Again, I would imagine there is some other harsh leaves that would not decompose quickly, but I have not found them around here. Cheers

Hi Frank,

Is there nowhere to find durable leaves in AZ?

Thanks,
Neal

I use oak leaves for my salvators. In novenber the trees here begin to drop them and theres an unlimited supply to gather. I have experimented with maple and chestnut but they tend to rot very quickly while the oak leaves are more durable. also, the maple and chestnut leaves do not dry out as do the oak, and become mushy. I add hundreds of lbs of leaves to my cages often, as they settle and compress I add more. the lower layers tend to be the wettest and harbor isopods which help break down waste and the decomposing leaves. I have sent keepers oak leaves via UPS, so if theres a need for it, I can help. -John

cybersalvator.com

Hi Neal, of course there are plenty of leaves to be found in AZ. Just not around you, hahahahahahahahahaha The mid elevations of our southern mountains are good for oaks. But the best is north, like Show Low and such, tons and tons to be had. Its just a long drive. Cheers

In my opinion, waters are sand bank nesters. So, you can trade John leaves for sand, hahahahahahahahahahahaha maybe you could find a deadend truck. Cheers

ok Neal, i will need aprox 2 tons. can you ship that UPS ground? salvators are sand bank nesters but my old female has nested in both sandy soil and in leaves. regards,

-john

Hi John, I understand we are kidding, but I have a question, did she nest successfully? The reason I ask this is, monitors will lay eggs in any moist dark area. But the chances of those nestings hatching are very slim. Even if they did hatch, what impact did it have on the female? Because good nesting has little to no impact on the female. Thats why I can have monitors lay so many clutches, it simply does not physically stress them or they would not be able too.

Its this understanding that is key. Once you get to the point of allowing females to lay eggs, the key then becomes, at what ease do they do this.

I will e-mail you tonight about another subject, Thanks

this female nested many times in a deep leaf enclosure. the eggs were never fertile, she is kept solitary (13 year old female "cody". she shows no sign of stress from laying, and resumes normal acivities right away. oddly, she doesn't lose much weight. from august 2004, to january 2006, she laid 10 clutches of eggs, ranging in number from 20-30 a clutch. this stretch was her most ever at such short intervals.
what is odd to me is on occasion, she will nest guard these clutches of infertile eggs.
right now, i am waiting on a gravid female sulfur that was housed with my male. i can only hope this female nests properly. the photo above is this gravid female.

cheers,

-john

Hello john

a friend in Jakarta hatche a few sulphur cluthes this year, to answer your ??
they nested in oak leaves and hatched as sulphurs not regular looking salvators. will try to fink photos for you.
rgds

They have oak trees in Indonesia?

Croc monitors in particular are known to live exclusively in trees similar to our north American oak, the leaves have the same composition and odour.
All my indo varanids take to them readily, when offered a dirt substrate they use it but the cage look like a mess and so the monitor, unless you have a sandy substrate. A much better option is to have dirt covered with leaf litter, but then Asian monitors push the leaves in one corner and nest only in them, I opted to use only the leafs for convenience.

Maple is a crappie leaf litter, 90% of American silver maple are affected by a fungal disease called (TAR) these explode in high humidity and cause eye, respiratory irritation to monitors.

>>They have oak trees in Indonesia?

They are not exactly the most common trees in tropical Asia, but they do generally grow above 1500m (ca. 4,900ft) in elevation.
Cheers,
Michael

Thanks Michael , that's interesting.

Cheers,
Neal

Heres a reoccuring problem. This oak leaf thread is going the way of many varanid threads, its going past the relm of applied usage. That is, I do not think an indo oak, is the same kind of OAK as our oaks. It merely has the same common name. This is true for australia, they have desert oaks, heck you can find V.gilleni and V.tristis, living in desert oaks. But those oaks are not in any way the same family as our oaks. Even if they were the same name, they have different leaves.

Now how this is similar to our horrible varanid discussions, IT simply doesn't matter, what kind of leaf for the monitor.

Leaflitter is the litter that builds up on the forest floor. This build up, is deeper and more consistant in certain areas, and particularly certain areas as they relate to the sun. That is what is important, not if its Oak or not. Using Oak leaves is not important to monitors, as the only difference is how often you have to add more to keep the a consistant depth. In nature, its very simple, if the tree, whatever kind it is, sheds enough material to maintain a certain depth, then it does. IT doesn't matter how. Only that it does.

Of interest, Neal lives near Pecan groves, pecans shed their leaves in the winter. He could acquire a huge supply of pecan leaves. But they are thinner and do not last long. But on the otherhand, he lives where its not a problem to get more. This is what is important, what is better is not a specific leaf, but access to maintain a supply of leaves. Sirs depth is important, not oak.

To make this about monitors, this is where the academic fellas fall flat. They get too concerned over concentrating on if its a oak or not. The books say it is, etc. But they forget the function. Which is simply a varanid nest using leaves as a prefered material. In all reality, these banks of leaves are usually many types of leaves. We are only picking oak leaves because they are handy for US. Oaks have nothing to do with monitors, in this case. Cheers

wow Jobi, thats great news to hear. Is there a chance we would be able to see this hatching on the net? will send you an email later. -regards --john

Haha... I'll get right on that John. I can get some nice stuff too, from the Gila river bed.

Cheers

Maybe I'll have to take a drive up to northern AZ. What kind of oaks are up there?

Cheers

Thanks guys! That info is very helpful. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer this.

Thansk again!!
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1.1.0 Leopard Geckos (Booger, Gimp)
1.0.0 Veiled Chameleon (Lucutis)
0.0.1 Quince Monitor (Pollux)
1.2.0 Thayeri Kingsnakes (Korben, Leeloo, Artax)
2.2.0 California Kingsnakes (Beetlejuice, Kang, Maraca, Kodos)