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A serious pricing question...

JP Sep 15, 2006 01:34 PM

First, let me say that this is a genuine post, and not an attempt to draw "flames". I know the "market" threads have blown up in the past, and I've stayed away from reading or posting in these. I just ventured over the the classified forum for the first time in probably a year, and was amazed at the prices...yellowbellies from proven lines at or below a grand, spiders and mojave below a grand, etc. I'm especially surpised the the yellowbelly and mojave prices. Just a couple of years ago the ellusive "white snake" would draw prices in the upper tens of thousands of dollars, and yellow bellies were being offered, and supposedly purchased for 10 - 15 K. Its so strange to see these prices being offered...I suspected a significant price drop in these critters, but not nearly to the level that has been realized.

I guess my question is what caused the dramatic decrease (seemingly over night) in price in certain morphs? Were people just unable to sell their offspring?

Replies (8)

medusah Sep 15, 2006 01:54 PM

Its called the Co-dominant phenom! one male to as many females as physicaly possible for the dude = wham, supply outweighing demand...

A good thing in a way as they are available for more hobbyist!

Brian A.

garweft Sep 15, 2006 03:12 PM

I wasn't going to reply but decided to anyway.

There are two ways to sell snakes. One is to produce quality offspring which you price at a level that you can sell them with some hard work and patience. The second is to produce whatever you can and price it so low that they sell with minimal effort and time.

The second is the easiest way, and therefore very popular.

GaryCrain Sep 15, 2006 03:23 PM

you have a bunch of people that when they dont sell the snake the first week, drop the price down lower every week until they do. Then the next buyer says hell ill wait until the next $1k mojave.

Or the wife needs a new coat or shoes, or i have a deck to build or a new baby coming..........

Plus Codoms drop fast, always have......

THISDUDE Sep 15, 2006 07:06 PM

You guys should read this post Jon from Next World Exotics posted on Fauna and maybe you will realize rec arent a better investment like everyone wants you to believe

btw excellent post Jon, I hope you dont mind me posting it here.

"The good thing is CO - DOMS are still THE BEST INVESTMENT! and if those people who got Mojave's and lessers produce them they will make their investment back and then some, it will just take a little longer...

Let me give you an INVESTMENT example:

You Buy
1.0 06 Spider $1200
0.5 04 Normals $200ea $1000

Total = $3200

You buy him now in September and he was born in June ... In February he is 8 months old and 600 grams (which is beyond possible for a spider with out over feeding) You breed him to the 5 females, since he is young only 3 take... Now i always go to bad egg production and even splits when i do my plans, because I'm happy with anything over that way.

so:
spider x normal = 4 eggs 2 spiders
spider x normal = 4 eggs 2 spiders
spider x normal = 4 eggs 2 spiders
spider x normal = nothing
spider x normal = nothing

And you end up with all females =)

6 female spiders x $650 ( i went really low on price, same as above i always go low so anything more is great!) = $3900 in 2007 so you have already turned a profit...
And the scenario is pretty unlikely , you would most likely at least get some males and i do not see them actually being that low... But lets use worst case scenario...

Now in 2007 season
You breed him to all 5 females and ususing the same theory as above you get 10 spiders and well go even lower on the price and you still get all females because at this point god hates you lol

10 x $5000 = $5000

So in 1.5 yr you have turned a profit of $5700 off a $3200 investment not many markets in the world you can do that in (once again we were using the absolute worst case scenario unless of course you stink at breeding =)

NOW SIMPLE RECESSIVE

Lets use albinos... since people always think they are the best investment (they aren't bad =)

You buy
1.0 Albino $1200
0.5 Hets $600 ea (for REAL HETS lol) = $3000
Total $3600

We are going to use the same scenario as above since i don't feel like typing it all out again

2006-2007 season = nothing
2007-2008 season = nothing (some hets?)

2009-2010 season
You breed
1.0 albino x 0.1 Het = 2 albinos
1.0 albino x 0.1 Het = 2 albinos
1.0 albino x 0.1 Het = 2 albinos
1.0 albino x 0.1 Het = 2 albinos
1.0 albino x 0.1 Het = 2 albinos

10 albinos x $500 (again worst case...) = $5000

So you make a $1400 profit in around 3 yrs

If i understand correctly (and i do ) A BIG COMPANY (and we are talking investments here not breeding what you like, which i think you should do anyways) would ALWAYS pick the MOST AMOUNT OF RETURN IN THE SHORTEST AMOUNT OF TIME POSSIBLE! Which would be CO- DOMS even with the prices going down =)

Simple recessive does hold their value but it takes longer and co - doms go down faster but you get a return quicker... What does that tell us, Hell they are BOTH GREAT INVESTMENTS IF YOU CAN BREED THEM!!!

I bought a cinny last year for $10,000 (he was an adult) and the price is now between 2000 - 2500 am i crying NO, i produced 8 of them and kept 2 so ill sell the 6 left for between 2000 and 2500 and make a profit (sure its not as much as i would have liked, but I'm not greedy and i love my Cinnamon's!) so I'm happy as can be He paid for himself and i can keep producing them year after year!"

PythonJoe Sep 15, 2006 07:19 PM

It's interesting.

In 2004 Spiders were around $10K
In 2005 they were were around $3,500
In 2006 they're around the $1,000 mark.

It appears that each year they decrease to around 33% of the previous years prices.

In 2004 Pastels (females) were around $3,500
In 2005 they were around $1,200
In 2006 they appear to be in the $600 range.

Yellowbellies definately took a HUGE hit.
In the beginning of 2005 they were available for $5,000 (either sex)
By the end of 2005 they were available for $2,500
In 2006 males are readily available for $500 and females $1,000.
That's 20% of the value of the starting 2005 price for females and 10% of the price for males.

What is driving prices so low so fast? I think it's a number of factors.

Micro-economic level -- "the Ball Python market."

1) As Gary mentioned -- people needing fast cash and dropping the price to move them quickly.

2) Many people got into the "ball python business" to make money and they started with Pastels. They are finally producing babies and discovering that it takes 2 - 3 clutches to break even with their initial investment. They can't trade up anymore because most breeders are producing their own pastels, so they sell cheap. This leaves them with very little money to reinvest and very little encouragement to do so. I expect many of these beginning breeders will exit the business, taking their money elsewhere.

A reduction in money and reduction in the number of buyers means less demand. Less demand means lower prices to encourage those with money to buy your snake.

3) The number of co-dom morphs that can be produced in a very short time. You can produce 4x as many co-doms than simple recessives because you can skip the heterozygous stage and the years required to raise them up for breeding.

4) The sense that the "ball python market is crashing." Before everyone thought they would make good money in ball pythons. Now, the mood is that prices are crashing and balls should be avoided. It's short term thinking that I think is flawed. Prices are going lower due to supply and demand, but the ball python is an incredible animal and it's exciting to work with them.

5) Space to house ball pythons. Not everyone is capable of maintaining 100 to 1000 animals. As their racks fill up they have to decide what to sell to make room for new animals, or they pass on making new acquisitions.

Macro-ecnomonic Level -- The economy.
1) Housing prices are flattening out and in some cases starting to decline. This means the days of refinancing your home to pull out $100,000 to buy a Banana Ball are probably behind us. This again means a reduction in the amount of cash flowing into the market.

2) Rising gas prices (lower now that we're nearing election season -- the oil companies know it's better for Republicans to be elected than Democrats -- watch for prices to go back up after the election).

3) Inflation -- It seems everything is going up in price except for ball pythons -- groceries, natural gas, electricity.

4) Massive auto worker layoffs / buyouts.

5) The war in Iraq, threats from Iran and N Korea, etc.

So there's much more going on in the world that's impacting the ball python market than just what we see within the ball python market.

I think anyone buying morphs with the idea of producing straight morphs is missing the bigger picture. Each morph is like a color in the breeders palet. It's from mixing the genes that we get different, unexpected and exciting new lines.

The yellowbelly, for instance, is one of the most amazing morphs out there. What other animal produces such varied results? Breed it to another Yellowbelly and get an Ivory. Breed it to a Whirlwind and get a Super Stripe. Breed it to a special granite and get an ebony. (And there's more that it does that most people aren't yet aware of.) Anyone who is thinking about buying a yellowbelly to produce yellowbellies is missing the point completely. The animal can't be looked at for what it is ... but for what it does. That's how I feel about all the different morphs. The problem is the small breeders palate is limited.

The excitement and joy in this business comes from proving out new morphs, creating exciting new combos, from getting a clutch, incubating it and watching them hatch. Making money from the sale of the snakes is important in that it allows me to feed my animals, buy more animals and pay for some family stuff, but it isn't my favorite part of the business.

If you purchased a co-dom and are bummed because prices are lower now, you're faced with two choices, cut and run or be in this for the enjoyment part. Add to your palate and have fun. If you do what you love, the money will follow. Ask Bryan Barczyk. I met him in the early 1990's when he was about 4 years into his business. Corns, Kings, Burms and just starting with Balls. Now 20 years later his business is gigantic. You can't stick with something that long without having passion for what you do. Passion for money will only take you so far.

Best regards.
Python Joe

BrandonSander Sep 16, 2006 01:49 AM

Joe,
I just wanted to say, "Thank you." It is about time someone spelled it out so simply and yet managed to touch on most (if not all) of the influences of the "Ball Market".

This post should be required reading for anyone thinking about posting questions pertaining to "market prices" - set it up like a pre-install disclaimer on software...if the user doesn't check "I Agree" they don't get to install the software. Maybe before they can post we could make them check:

"I have read this post and still feel brave enough to ask why my ball python isn't "worth" as much anymore. I fully understand the risk I am taking by asking this question and that doing so may result in a verbal lashing akin to suffering third degree chemical burns. I have been warned."

LOL, I'm just kidding around - not trying to tick off JP (or even direct this at him), but Joe...you have some excellent points and I think more people should take them into account when they start wondering and worrying.

j3nnay Sep 16, 2006 01:57 AM

As a beginning breeder, or really someone who's looking to seriously get into breeding in the next few years, I am loving the drop in prices. I'm hoping that next year, I'll be able to afford a pastel or two, and maybe a yellow belly, and start working my way up to getting a spider and from there, who knows!

The drop in prices, once things stabilize some, will actually be a good thing, I think. It'll be easier to get into breeding, for the beginner, and it'll be easier to sell offspring at lower prices for people already looking to sell offspring that aren't flashy and wonderful new morphs.

I'm excited for the years to come. There's so much potential, it's mindboggling.

~jenny
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1.1 normal ball pythons (Cindy and Darwin)
1.0 rex rat (Scurvy)
0.1 bunny (Spazz)
2.1 betta fishes (Vicious, Killer, and Butters)
3.1 great danes (Shasta, Odysseus, Merlot, and Watson)
1.0 fat fuzzy mutt (Smokey)
1.1 cats (Thidwick and Turtle)
2.0 horses (Buddy and Sam)
1.0 goat (Billy Jack)
2.25 chickens (Jacques the rooster and his harem)

but what I really want is more ball pythons!

jmartin104 Sep 16, 2006 10:59 AM

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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

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