Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've read a lot of posts on this site about snow/bumble bee/spider balls etc. Why is it that a lot of you seem to overlook just how colourful and amazing a natural royal python can be. I know that selective breeding brings out diferent patterns and so-on but this kind of selective breeding cannot help but eventually breed a really screwed up snake. I have watched over the years with dogs and cats how this type of selective breeding can give you the results that you want but only end up in causing problems. If you want examples of the cats and dogs look at your basic persian, with it's eyes set further forward than its nose and the problems with breathing etc. With dogs you could site the German shepherd dog which has massive problems with its spine and hips. Why not admire the original and not strive for mutations because you can charge more for them. I know that mutations do happen naturally and should be admired for their differences but I think that I would rather have a healthy, beautiful Royal/Ball python.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should !

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0.1 Royal python
0.2 Dogs
2.0 guineapigs
1.1 kids
0.1 wife

>> I have watched over the years with dogs and cats how this type of selective breeding can give you the results that you want but only end up in causing problems. If you want examples of the cats and dogs look at your basic persian, with it's eyes set further forward than its nose and the problems with breathing etc. With dogs you could site the German shepherd dog which has massive problems with its spine and hips. Why not admire the original and not strive for mutations because you can charge more for them. >>

I think this thread is going to die fast and/or lead into flaming like crazy. Everyone has their own reasons for breeding morphs or even normals...some are in it just for the money and some are in it for the beauty that morphs create. Now when we have a persian ball python..then I might have a problem.

Besides...They won't let me own a wolf or a cheetah here...so unforuntately I have to stick with my fluffy toy poodle.

~Ang

Thanks for the reply, as I obviously didn't get my point across I'll try again. I have no problem with morphs and the animals that I stated were examples. I did not do this to offend but to get other peoples opinions. To me that most beautiful Royal/ball python is a naturally coloured one. I understand that everybody has different tastes ( world would be a very boring place if we all liked the same thing ). If it wasn't for mutation we would not have the varity of animals that we do. As for being flamed, If you feel that you have a point to make, make it. I won't be offended and it is not my intention to offend. All I am doing is asking a question. I have had a lot of good advice from intellegent people who know a lot about this breed of snake and it is the best place that I have found for asking questions about Royal/ball pythons and that is all that I have done.

If I offend then I appologise, but I hope that the people on this site will just give their opinion, I'm just curious.
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0.1 Royal python
0.2 Dogs
2.0 guineapigs
1.1 kids
0.1 wife

I agree with you to a point... i have a german shepard that has hip displasia (sp)? which is common in a lot of the larger breeds of dogs.. However i dont think that selective breeding for a certain color pattern will have near the affect on the health of the snake as say breeding for a certain size ...

Color and pattern morphs of reptiles is alot different than breeding for size/function as is done with cats and dogs. IN many cases, harmful mutations are bred true in cats and dogs (ie the persians with their pushed in noses and high chance of breathing problems, or tear duct problems, large dogs and hip displacia etc) But cat/dog coat colors are not so much a problem.

Often in cat and dog breedings, things are taken to the extreme, like making a dog breed that is barely bigger than a rat from original stock that is many times bigger.

What most morph breeders in reptiles are doing, is not trying to change the size and shape of their snakes, but bring out color mutations to enhance their appearance. Many of these color patterns occur in nature (though for the most part, most do not survive to reach adulthood because the particular color or pattern morph make it impossible or more difficult to hide from predators). Breeders just take these natural variations and enhance them via selective breeding etc. producing all the wonderous combinations now available in the ball python world.

One reason there is so much variation in ball pythons morphs is because there is so much variation in the natural 'wild type' of ball pythons. Pastals, pieds, spiders etc, not to mention so many variations of the natural pattern that makes ball pythons such a joy to own and breed. Their patterns are unique, probably as individualistic as finger prints or individual snowflakes are. Some are lighter, some darker, some more yellow, some with black backs, others with partial or complete stripes, little ot no 'alien' heads, speckling etc leaving the wild type of ball pythons just as interesting and varied as all the new available morphs out there.

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PHLdyPayne

You smart ass it has already started just look at the head shakes of the spider ball and there will be others history has shown that if you start mucking around with things for to long they will come back to haunt you, but the ones that really pay are the snakes and all I here on this forum is someone bashing someone over how they take care of there reptiles , well take a good look at your self's !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It isn't nice to fool with mother naetcher you hypocrites!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Absolutely nothing wrong with the original, and that's why there will always be beautiful "wildtype" individuals available from big breeders and pet-stores alike. An important distinction right away is "normal" and "wildtype". I can guarantee you that if 99% of WC pythons imported were Bumblebees there would be selective breeding projects to get at the elusive "normal" that we know and love. Normal only means it's the most common, not the best, not the worst, just the majority. So the better term is wildtype, so there is no biological value placed on the different morphs.

When it comes to selective breeding, line breeding, etc., you may have a point. But, take a look around at the most frequently line-bred snakes: corns and balls. These animals are coming from a wild stock with much greater diversity than our domestic dogs and cats. As well, selective breeding of ball pythons in particular hasn't been happening on a substantial scale for much more than 20 years. Domesticating cats and dogs started a looong time ago and took a very different path than what selective breeding of snakes is and will take. German Shepherds and Miniature Schnauzers and Lhasa Apsos and and were all bred with an ideal in mind. And each subsequent generation is held up to a breed standard weeding out the variation and compounding the detriments of inbreeding. Ball pythons in particular are being bred to create exciting new pattern and colour combinations. There will never be centuries of line breeding to create the "perfect" spider or even the perfect killer bee, yet as far as I know all spiders are descended from just one snake.

I'll have to refresh my vertebrate genetics, but I do believe the negative effects of inbreeding are substantially reduced in reptiles when compared to mammals. Anecdotal evidence of purebreed dogs plagued by genetic defects and healthy lines of severely inbred snakes is one part of this impression. The other is that the reptiles are a much older group than mammals. There has been a lot more genetic experimentation over evolutionary time with mammals creating many new successful forms in a short period of time, but also leaving evolution some time to weed out the problems inherent with such genetic innovation.

To finish, I think the general public is aware of the negative impacts of inbreeding in mammals, and sub-consciously or actively will act to avoid the same kind of line breeding with reptiles, perhaps being overly cautious in this respect.

Thank you for that thoughtful post. The comparision between inbred mammals and reptiles is truly an apples and oranges debate. Far too many millions of years of harsh evolution have separated them to make it a fair comparison.

That being said, I agree with the original poster in that the appeal of P. regius had a good head of steam going long before the morph craze, and will survive long after this novelty drive simmers. They are great snakes to keep in any color scheme. I have been caring for them since '79 and they still hold my attention, and will for a long time. I just appreciate the different paint jobs they come in now also. Thanks.

Will

HERE,HERE!! I agree hole heartedly. well said well said!!!!