Reptile & Amphibian Forums

so here it is i know this will start a debate and i have read similisr stuff before on the subject but i want to hear some new opinions on if you think they are the same or not.
the reason im asking is because i was sent 4 patterned mbk from my buddy deon at dnkreptiles and they look exactly like the sockheaded splendida from ecc(peter jolles(sp)) now i know peter is an honest guy and i know my buddy is a honest guy. but they look identical. i figure that the ones i got will darken with age but i have no idea if splendida do or not. so are they the same or not? opinions please
adam jeffery
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hybrid breeders association
0.0.32 baby corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 butter corns
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 milksnake phase
0.1 anery motley
0.1 bone white cross
0.1 albino banded cal king
0.1. normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0. snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0. amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
1.0 blizzard leo gecko
0.2 normal leo geckos
1.0 3 lined mud turtle

Well, we have heard from a few on the forum that a MBK is just a melanistic splendida. In the intergrade zone in southern AZ, you can see the transisition from the classic splendida pattern to more and more melanistic as you approach the Mexican border. I have personally never seen a solid black animal in the wild, but I have seen very melanistic individuals with a faint splendida pattern underneath. I'm not sure if solid black individuals are more common in the middle their range in Mexico. Most captive bred MBKs are line bred to be solid black.
This post is likely to start a debate about the validity of the MBK as a sub-species, and about the validy of sub-species in general. There are folks who would like to see getula reduced to three sub-species (californiae, splendida, getula) and others who would like to get rid of subs all together and just call a getula a getula. I would like to hear if there is someone on this forum who has significant field experience in the middle of the MBK's range tell us if solid black animals are the norm, and if splendida patterns are unusual. Technically two different subs of the same species cant inhabit the same range.

pic of a intergrade getula from southeastern AZ

I'm aware of how difficult it can be to designate a species as a subspecies, but at some point, if traits differ enough, we need to acknowledge a subspecies.

In behavior, Splendidas & Nigritas are very similar. And they can be either very mellow, or very antagonistic.

But, look at the head. I've had at least 4 species of Kings and the MBKs are distinctly different. Their heads resemble Dino the Dinosaur; they have a wedge-shaped snout and wider jaw. Cal Kings & Deserts are more narrow and Cobra-like in the face.

I think that the regional separation over time was enough that MBKs are truly a subspecies, with unique traits - like the snout & jaw.

Don in Portland, OR

In looking @ all 3 ssp I've never noticed that. I always thought the head was a point on which to compare similarities. I'd need to see pics of all 3 side by side in order to appreciate the differences you are talking about.

reako45

Hmmm. Do you have pics to show what you're talking about??
There can be some differences even within the ssp. I think. We see differences in FL kings for sure.
I keep them all too. Maybe I'll get some pics..
Now all that said, (if the mbk is a splendida) how do we know we have "pure" mbk??!
In hatchlings at least, there are deep similarities as well with some locales of nigra and holbrooki. They also intergrade as you know.
Lots of fuel for the "lumpers".
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Although most of the black kingsnakes in southern AZ do show some pattern, jet black individuals DO occur there. I have seen photos of snakes from So AZ that looked like line bred nigrita.
And in Mexico, nigrita are generally solid black as adults. Some do retain a light "splendida" pattern. In the original description of nigrita, they are noted to occasionally have a light pattern. It is only the herp hobby that has insisted that nigrita must be jet black.

I don't agree that there are only 3 subspecies of getula. If you are going to accept the ssp concept, I don't know how you can define ssp with only california, splendida, and getula.
I think you have to recognize the south florida population (floridana) and I think you would have to recognize a holbrooki/nigrita subspecies.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

As you recognize intergradation between Splendida and nigritas in the West you also have to recognize intergradation between splendida and holbrooki in the Eastern range of splendida. Different counties here in Texas have different looks, sizes and behavior. This is what makes working with splendida so fun. Actually it's not much different than what you find in californiae. Look at the difference between a desert Cal. King from Anza Borrego, a desert Cal King from Joshua Tree and one from Ariz. Then you have straight stripes from Coastal areas of San Diego County, straight stripes from the high desert, and what we used to call striped and banded from Southern Riverside County/Northern San Diego County. And these are just the varients I used to work with. There are all those others like the Choc. Brown from around LAX, and those Davis varients, etc., etc. The whole getula complex is one really interesting group of snakes to work with for sure!!!!!

Pat

Pat

I agree with the rev. If one is to sub them all out, then you probably won't find jet blacks here in the U.S. except on a breeders table! How 'bout it, F.R.?
Todd Hughes

Yeah, I mis-spoke about the 3 subs of getula thing. I was trying to simplify Blaney's theory, which suggested splitting getula into 3 species, not subspecies. Not saying I agree with it either.

I know all black nigrita have been found in southern AZ, and I have seen the pics. I just haven't seen them myself. I'm still intruiged by Olivia's (xelda) experience with hatching out splendida patterned offspring from all black parents. It raises a lot of questions.

i have have a baby from the same line from last year that is jet black. thats why i started this it just behooves me that they look so much like splendida but with some all black siblings?
dont ask me but i will try getting pics of the parents and i will post up pics of theses ones when i get back from the buffalo show tomorrow.
adam
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hybrid breeders association
0.0.32 baby corns
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 butter corns
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 milksnake phase
0.1 anery motley
0.1 bone white cross
0.1 albino banded cal king
0.1. normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0. snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0. amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
1.0 blizzard leo gecko
0.2 normal leo geckos
1.0 3 lined mud turtle

I'm still intruiged by Olivia's (xelda) experience with hatching out splendida patterned offspring from all black parents. It raises a lot of questions.

This is perfectly normal.

Many years ago when I wanted to find a nigrita, there were very few available in the US and they sold out quickly. This was before the days of the expo.
I found a very experienced breeder with a clutch of babies and he was charging $75 each for patterned babies and $125 for solid black babies, all from the same clutch. When I asked him about it he laughed and told me that by the end of their first year they would be indistinguishable. He could get the extra $50 because most people didn't know this. I bought a patterned pair which turned jet black and then produced both patterned and black babies.

I'm not sure why this is so disturbing for some folks.
Baby nigra look just like baby holbrooki which look a LOT like baby splendida. They don't achieve their adult patterns until the first year or so. This occurs in the wild as well, just as it does with nigrita.
And baby floridana (the real, south florida floridana) don't have their adult pattern when born.

There are quite a few examples of melanistic populations of snakes which are born with a pattern - Black Ratsnakes, most Black Sandboas, Black Racers, etc.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

"There are quite a few examples of melanistic populations of snakes which are born with a pattern - Black Ratsnakes, most Black Sandboas, Black Racers, etc."

I know that ontogenetic color and pattern changes are not unusual in many snakes. I think it is unusual for a sub-species to hatch out looking like a different sub. Some who have had nigrita hatch out looking like splendida have said that they retained their pattern. It shows how closely related splendida and nigrita are, and ,as you mention, how close holbrooki and nigra are.

Try finding and reading the original paper that describes nigrita. My bet is, its very old and it will be very limited with the number of individual snakes it used to make the discription.

My guess is, it may have used one or two specimens(very few), and not from known locals or from different locals. Whats important here is, kingsnakes have a huge variation in one single population, a low sample will be very misleading.

My next guess is, and this one is very important, that the areas with black kings in mexico are coastal populations. As this is where Cal kings commonly express polymorphism, as in, dominate and recessive patterns. These coastal populations leak inland thru river valleys. As they migrate inland the percentage of dark individuals(polymorphism) drops.

Back to the point, these old names, many of you hold so dear are often taken from a very very few individual animals and often have no or weak locals. Check it out and see.

Once I researched the paper discribing pyros, It was done on 55 individual pyros. They were from the mexican highlands all the way to Utah. Most known locals(now) were missing, and in most cases a single specimen from many locals.

The problem with this is, I looked at 55 pyros from one local and it contained all the above variation. As in, high triad, low triad counts, range of labials, side striping, etc.

My bet here is, nigrita was done on far fewer. Cheers

Your post was good, no problems. There are jet black kings in arizona.

There are also melanistic kings of intergrades in the tuscon area. There are also melanistic kings of the banded form in other outlying areas.

The problem with the Scientific name of MBK's is, that sample may have been from one local, and that local sample may have possibly had mainly pure black kings. But you have to consider, that is only one local. In mexico where black kings occur, splendida patterns also occur, in many areas. So which outweights the other. What is the exception and what is the rules becomes the real question.

Now consider there are areas where Calkings have a high percentage of black morphs. But as we know, most areas Cal kings occur, they are NOT black and most populations do not contain black morphs.

Now a bigger problem is Scientific nomencalture. Its sucks really badly. The current trend , (and yes these trends change with each graduating class) is to not include subspecies. THese folks must only want their names in print, as this approach loses all function. It is not of utility. Which means it has no particular value, other then its something to do and its simple.

Personally, when a common name becomes more accurate then the scientific name, something needs to change. For instance, most wild kings are often referred to by locality, which is very discriptive. To pick up a cal king, then pick up a Goins and call them both the same name is, Well very very stupid. I hope our science is not that stupid.

I myself like names that tell me about the animal in question, its tells me what it is, a king, what area its from, species, and what form it is, local and form.

If science thinks a getulus is a getulus, they need to be punted onto another planet. They have lost their collective minds. Cheers