Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Seems to be 2 opinions as to the correct use of this generational lineage term. So why dont we beat on it a little more .......

M/

I thought F1....F2....F3 distingished the generation in which the offspring are from, Say you have a Hypo for example, you breed the Hypo to a Normal (or whatever) the offspring generated from that pairing would be the F1 offspring, now you raise those offspring up and breed the babies to something...those offspring would be the F2....and so on and so on...Thats how I have always thought of it...I could be wrong..I would like to hear some other explanations...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

about 2 years ago and my understanding of the answers and explanations were:

Filial generations and connotations are ALL related to inbreeding.
You start w/ two animals, the "P" generation.
You breed them together and get "F1" progeny.
If you breed the siblings from the "F1" generation, you will get "F2" progeny.
If you breed the siblings from the "F2" generation, you will get "F3" progeny.

And so on.

It was also my understanding that if you take an "F1" animal and breed it to an "F3" animal, those two animals will be considered the "P" generation and the cycle starts all over again. BUT!!! My quick 5 minute research into filial generations also told me that the "P" generations are ASSUMED to be from unrelated stock, so I think that throws a minor wrench into the process and I'm not sure where we take it from there.

I was also under the impression that if you take an "F3" animal (for instance, or any other generation, say, "F100" and breed it to anything other than its sibling, you now have a new filial generation ===> "F1", because the parents are unrelated and are considered to be the "P" generation (again, because filial generations are in relation to inbreeding).

Check this website for more info! http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Filial_generation

So that's my understanding. Anyone else have a different interpretation?
jb
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Jonathan Brady
"Sarcasm is angers ugly cousin" -Dr. Buddy Rydell (Jack Nicholson) in "Anger Management".

Thats really good info, But in my opinion would it be kinda a negative impression to say you have F6 or F10 offspring, that would mean you have Inbred that many times..I know the general concensus is that its ok to do so for a few generations but the higher the F Number the more times its been inbred...why would someone admit to inbreeding that many times? Why would that be a positive thing? Don't you at some point want to outcross and start over, I just don't understand why anyone would say they have a high F number? if that means they have inbred that many times with out outcrossing.....Just curious why the higher the F number the better?

Thanks for the info...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

As I i was told almost 10 years ago you should be able to go seven generations in before you start getting physical genetic problems. This opinion has changed in the past ten years from one breeder to another and also from one scientist to another. In reptiles there is a more diverse gene pool then human so inbreeding does not have the same limitations as it does in humans. The F1 as I was told is the original offspring from the original parent. The when you breed those offspring together you get F2 and so on and so forth. The Hypo genes are the perfect example of how inbreeding can work well to achieve a better expression of that gene.

Of course if you take the finest example of the hypo gene in when it reaches F7 and go to an unrelated animal you will have F1's from your F7 line.. From there I would need to read up on how this addressed by the number's. Howver you would be able to go another seven generations to keep refining the gene.

By the way...

So if you bred Siblings together would thier offspring be technically F2 Generation, since the parents where siblings making them F1? I have always felt the urge to try and breed as unrelated as I can...So the whole breeding siblings together never really crossed my mind, I have waited to find a certain look in a mate for our snakes that might make a good match. But this is all really interesting stuff, Great Topic...
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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

Yes that's th ejist of it as I know it....

I think the term has been mainly been used in Hypo x Hypo breeding's and it was considered desirable because the babys from f2 and f3 ect. breeding's were cleaner and more colorful. The possibility of getting a super from those breeding's is also higher. I agree however that at some point this would become detrimental. Vinnie

Really want to continually inbreed closely related animals...this is the primary reason to assign a connotation system...to keep track of the project in a simple,linear fashion,and make the proper decisions about outcrossing. long before the filial system was misused by those that didn't understand its purpose,it was primarily used in conservation programs to keep specific races,locality variants,or distinct subspecies from being overly,and/or directly inbred,and to track any deleterious effects that might hinder long term survival,(the gene pool of the Florida panther was deemed to be so decimated at one point,that in order to "save" them,animals were introduced from the Texas variant,which actually created an intergrade,but served to strengthen the existing gene pool.)...also,if an animal showed some sort of mutative variation,the filial system was incorporated in a captive breeding program until such time as the inheritable nature of the mutation,if any,was determined,or identified. once the trait in question was accurately identified,(usually within the F3 generation,for most simple,or presumed "single gene set" mutants.)the use of the system became,for the most part,redundant,and unneccessary,and was usually dropped altogether.
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

higher fillial generations denote the concentration of genes to those that are prefered for that trait.

This occurs in Hypos, Pastels, and Harlequin boas. Within reason, most breeders won't pass F4 without adding some new blood. Line breeding can isolate specific traits, as was done with Pastels. Pastels have the advantage of multiple bloodlines to eliminate the need to inbreed to achieve the desired results.

In locale specific, and other rare pure stock the generation number is important to know how close they are to the original animals.

Some species/subspecies/locales are introduced to captivity with one pair, or maybe two. The longer that P and F1 generations can be maintained the better to build a strong diverse group in captivity.

With anything that is genetic,the higher the filial number,the greater the chance of isolating a homozygous example,and/or discovering the true nature of any given mutant.it seems pastel has just become a huge adjective stewpot for anything slightly above pure brown? if you notice,every single hypo produced now is a "pastel" with no real suggestion of any linear continuity,or previous track record at all? just my take on it,at the rate everything's being lumped into the pot,eventually "pastel" will simply mean that it didn't come from a black boa... *lol* as far as I can imagine,I can't think of anything I'd be interested in working past F3? if it's a form of dominance,third gen. should yeild the desired result,if it's recessive you should have an entire litter of homozygous examples to out cross from...why go to F4 with anything???
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

I understand what you are saying, but unfortunately people use the term pastel for everything. It really irks me that people call a light hypo a pastel etc when there is no pastel anywhere in their ancestry. Just because ignorant people, or inscrupulous sellers call everything a Motley would that change what a Motley is? No! A Pastel will always be a pastel, regardless of those people. Unlike the single gene morphs, pastels have so many genes that create the look, you really can't have the same problem as the morphs. It isn't one gene! After this discussion I will never by an F anything either. I purposely make a great effort to outcross all my projects.

Caden

"With anything that is genetic,the higher the filial number,the greater the chance of isolating a homozygous example,and/or discovering the true nature of any given mutant.it seems pastel has just become a huge adjective stewpot for anything slightly above pure brown? if you notice,every single hypo produced now is a "pastel" with no real suggestion of any linear continuity,or previous track record at all? just my take on it,at the rate everything's being lumped into the pot,eventually "pastel" will simply mean that it didn't come from a black boa... *lol* as far as I can imagine,I can't think of anything I'd be interested in working past F3? if it's a form of dominance,third gen. should yeild the desired result,if it's recessive you should have an entire litter of homozygous examples to out cross from...why go to F4 with anything???"

Stick with imports only then,(it would be your only hope),if that is your goal,(inbreeding is not a bad word,inbreeding with no concept of pitfall,or regard for future generations can lead to "inbreeding depression",which is what should be avoided by responsible breeders.)...Some animals that are lumped into the pastel stewpot are probably genetic,however,if no one takes the time to find out it's just lost in the mix,and leads to the problem you claim to be "irked" by...
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

re: "After this discussion I will never by an F anything either."

Do you realize that according to the filial system every creature (not just snakes) is at least an F1? F1 denotes the progeny from two unrelated animals.

Hmmmm.

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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Not everybody understands the meaning of F1, F2, etc. The breeders may be confused as are their customers when they sell higher F numbers. Generally, as said, the higher F number would lead to breeders buying them to outcross rather than pair up siblings if they know what is going on. However, the seller may not have known how to properly assign F1 etc and they may not be as advertised.

If a seller claimed F2 or higher, I would ask for documentation on it, seeing as F2 would indicate they know something about the animals history, they should be able to answer where they got the number from.
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"I'll be back at 6 if not 7. 8 the very latest but definatly no later than 9...ish...Moscow time."

I do laugh when I see ads for F1's. As I replied to Caden above, every creature is at least an F1. By definition as I understand it F1 denotes the offspring from two unrelated animals while F2 is offspring fom two siblings.

I would believe there are MANY F2's being sold without being labeled as such. ie joe breeder buys a pair of babies from another breeder that are siblings (may or may not be informed/realise/care/matter) and then raises them up and breeds them to each other. One thing I do worry about and try to watch is that could theoretically happen for more than one generation creating Fx's with a much higher filial numbder than I'd purchase myself. When making my purchases I do pay attention to the parents and where they came from. Not saying I'd avoid a purchase from a person who bred a related pair, just need that info for future decisions. Duh, it's a no brainer if you're only buying one.

And like most I do look for unrelated and try to breed unrelated whenever I can. Sometimes though, it's desirable. For example I'm getting a trio of Motleys. I will breed two siblings to produce super motleys. I know the parents of my Motleys were unrelated so breeding the sibs will produce F2's, and that's acceptable IMO!

>>Not everybody understands the meaning of F1, F2, etc. The breeders may be confused as are their customers when they sell higher F numbers. Generally, as said, the higher F number would lead to breeders buying them to outcross rather than pair up siblings if they know what is going on. However, the seller may not have known how to properly assign F1 etc and they may not be as advertised.
>>
>>If a seller claimed F2 or higher, I would ask for documentation on it, seeing as F2 would indicate they know something about the animals history, they should be able to answer where they got the number from.
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>>"I'll be back at 6 if not 7. 8 the very latest but definatly no later than 9...ish...Moscow time."
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Funny thing was, I always assumed F1 were from WC or unrelated parents. I never took the time to think that these people didn't know what they were talking about.

I'm not sure how unrelated Motleys can be, since they came from an original motley outcrossed to others and all. Dominant traits are much easier to outcross though, resulting in stronger lines that say albino boas.
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"I'll be back at 6 if not 7. 8 the very latest but definatly no later than 9...ish...Moscow time."

It's the same thing with any morph that has an original source animal(s). By unrelated in my motleys I meant they (2.1 F1 siblings) are from another breeder who bred his motley to a pastel (not related to the motley). Same way it would be for me to breed my motley to any of my other females.

>>
>>I'm not sure how unrelated Motleys can be, since they came from an original motley outcrossed to others and all. Dominant traits are much easier to outcross though, resulting in stronger lines that say albino boas.
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>>"I'll be back at 6 if not 7. 8 the very latest but definatly no later than 9...ish...Moscow time."
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Thats what I thought. Glad you understand it as well, I'm not so sure everyone does.
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"I'll be back at 6 if not 7. 8 the very latest but definatly no later than 9...ish...Moscow time."

I have never seen an ad for an F1 before, which is why, in my vast ignorance, I said what I said. The point I was making is that I work very hard to have breeding pairs that are not related to each other. I never knew before today that F2 meant brother and sister. One more mistake I won't make now. THank you for educating me.

Caden

Just one small clarification to your statement:

"I never knew before today that F2 meant offspring from brother and sister."

A 1.1 pair of F2's would be
- brother and sister offspring from
- brother and sister parents from
- unrelated parents

Another way to look at it is:

F2's have only one set of grandparents (same grandparents on both sides)

F3's have one set of grandparents AND also have only one set of great grandparents (same on both sides of both sides)

etc. etc.

I do agree with you 100% and most of my projects are with unrelated stock except where I am knowingly producing F2's. I believe from what I've read that it would not be significantly detrimantal to go several filial generations to refine a given line. I have no plans myself to go past f2's.

>>I have never seen an ad for an F1 before, which is why, in my vast ignorance, I said what I said. The point I was making is that I work very hard to have breeding pairs that are not related to each other. I never knew before today that F2 meant brother and sister. One more mistake I won't make now. THank you for educating me.
>>
>>Caden

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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

OK *laughing* I never knew that a pair of F2's means sibling offspring from sibling parents with unrelated grandparents. : )

If I had the only true 100% albino suriname in the world, of course I would make hets and breed them with each other. But say the trait is more common than that. What if it was something you could find on an unrelated boa that was available to you? Personally I would go for the other unrelated boa, even though it would mean I would have to pay money for someone else's stock, and even though I might not have even had any problems breeding siblings. I want my boas to be as strong and healthy as possible genetically. I think you're asking for unhealthy mutations, genetic diseases and conditions, or who knows what else to show up later. I am not saying it is never justified to breed siblings, but I sure see a lot of 1.1 sibling pairs being sold. I know people are breeding them to each other without thought, even in cases where it is completely unnecessary.

Caden

Gotcha....re laughing

I agree 100% with your thoughts on 1.1 pairs. For the most part my purchases have been single animals or unrelated pairs. The related pairs I have purchased are slated for breeding to other animals with only a few exceptions.

>>OK *laughing* I never knew that a pair of F2's means sibling offspring from sibling parents with unrelated grandparents. : )
>>
>>If I had the only true 100% albino suriname in the world, of course I would make hets and breed them with each other. But say the trait is more common than that. What if it was something you could find on an unrelated boa that was available to you? Personally I would go for the other unrelated boa, even though it would mean I would have to pay money for someone else's stock, and even though I might not have even had any problems breeding siblings. I want my boas to be as strong and healthy as possible genetically. I think you're asking for unhealthy mutations, genetic diseases and conditions, or who knows what else to show up later. I am not saying it is never justified to breed siblings, but I sure see a lot of 1.1 sibling pairs being sold. I know people are breeding them to each other without thought, even in cases where it is completely unnecessary.
>>
>>Caden
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats