Reptile & Amphibian Forums

And Baby Makes Three...

I am pleased to announce the arrival of the world's third Black Lace. The new baby is the offspring of a normal looking male bred back to his normal looking mother (she is also the mother of the two Black Lace I produced back in 2004). I just love the look of these guys and think the future combo potential is huge. We need more recessive ball morphs!

Thanks for looking,
Dan Wolfe

I couldn't get them to smile....

I really like the look of these Dan! They will make some beautiful albinos and more!!!
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Matt Lerer
'Ghi Reptiles'
ghireptiles.com

yello rat snacks...

Your stupid..

Wait, I already said that but you REALLY are STUPID!!!!

How's the sandwich Mayo treating your DOor handles?

You are a GOD @ Fishing!!!!!

SANTA
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringment is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Notice the highly reduced eye stripe. All three of them have very reduced head patterns and missing eye stripes.

.

Very Cool!

Was the name Black Lace already used by another breeder for a morph that is dom/Co-Dom? I thought it was already used before but I might be wrong. Either way they are gorgeous animals.
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Rob Trenor
RK Reptiles
www.rkreptiles.com
www.rkreptiles.net
www.oldworldchameleons.com
www.ballpythonmorphs.net
www.beardedragons.com

_____

Hi Rob,

I named them two years ago when the first ones popped out. Because there were two of them I was sure they were genetic but I was not sure how the trait was inherited. The father of the original two was a pastel and I thought that maybe that gene was somehow involved. I have not heard of anyone else using the name 'Black Lace' but I have since seen balls being called 'Lace Black Backs' and one at Daytona this year being called a 'White Lace'. I think the name fits these guys - being very dark and having the lacey pattern........maybe it's just me but I think they are pretty darn sexy too.

Thanks for the positive feedback.
Dan

Good for you proving them out!

Jesse

Congratulations on proving them out - they are gorgeous!!!
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Tosha

"Nihil facimus sed id bene facimus"

I like it! Kind of a Cinn, Mojave, Sable look to them.

Dave

Those are gorgeous. And you're right, it's tough gittin' a grin out of them

Quig
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Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

Gonna try for a super next?
Let's hope it's not white!
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

Being that it's a recessive gene, and the Black Lace is the homozygous form, there should not be a super. However I have several Pastel females that are 50% possible het for Black Lace that I hope to breed to my Pastel het Black Lace male next year. So it's possible we could see a Pastel Black lace as well as a super Pastel Black Lace soon. Sure keeps it interesting...

All the best,
Dan

Don't mind me...I missed the recessive part. I was thinking co-dom...
haha.

So does that mean you'll have hets for sale?
How much?
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

Good work...I will make a place for you in the book under "The Empire of the Black Lace" ball......

So I take Boxers and Jockeys are NOT what you wear?

SATAN
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringment is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Dear Satan,

Thanks for the kind words. You'll get your end of the bargain later.......hopefully much later.

What? You've never heard of black lace boxers?

Best wishes,
The Eternally Damned

Nice. Wierd how simmilar they are to black pastels and cinneys. Recessive you say? Cool.
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I have Balls!

Great animals. They almost have a "Sable" or a "black head" quality to them. Amazing congrats again. They would probally look really cool crossed into a Sable or a Black Pastel !!!
Matt and Kim
N.A.R.C

This is big for balls..........How many years has it been since a new recessive has been proven..........

Too many.......

CONGRTATS on an awesome snake.............can you post up smoe more head shots.......I love em!!!!!

Way to go man...........see what hard work and dedication do for ya!!!

Jared Horenstein

Thanks Jared, I appreciate the kind words. Here is a head shot taken in 2004 of one of the first two. The heads seem to lighten up generally as they age, becoming a rust color.

Here's another shot of the 2004 babies, prior to the first shed.

totally normal looking or was she a very nice looking normal. What about her were you trying to line breed? Was she a reduced pattern or high gold? Was it just a gut feeling that made you decide to breed her to one of her offspring or were you trying to prove out something with her?

The first two Black Lace produced in 2004 were a total fluke. I bred a pastel male to what I believed to be a totally normal female, only trying to produce pastels. Out of four fertile eggs two black lace popped out. At first I believed that the pastel gene might be involved. I line bred the female back to a normal looking son this year for two reasons. First, the father of the original Black Lace refused to breed this year, and secondly I knew that it was an opportunity to see if it is a recessive gene. I had a 50/50 chance that the son would be heterozygous for the condition. I sure like getting lucky.

Regards,
Dan

Was the pastel male you bred her to completely unrelated to her?
He would have been carrying the same recesssive gene for the trait as she was! The odds are stacked way against that. Were they at least kissing cousins? LOL
In other words what I am asking is if the pastel male was related to her in some way and you were using her to pass on some nice trait to your pastel line?
Would you post a picture of her? I guess that is why I like normals. They could carry a very nice recessive gene and no one would know it till they get paired up with the right partner.

See what happens when you get me started again.

np

Those black lace are the most beautiful ball pythons I've ever seen, in the flesh or in pictures!

Unfortunately, it has not been PROVEN to be a recessive mutant. That is the most likely explanation, but there is at least one other. For example, it is possible that the black lace mutant is some kind of dominant, and the mutation occurred in the old female's ovaries rather than in one of her forebears.

To really prove it is a recessive mutant gene, black lace x normal matings must produce only normal-looking babies. And normal-looking babies from the old female need to be bred together and produce some black laces among the babies.

Sorry to rain on the parade. Dominant or recessive, it's right at the top of my list to get someday.

Paul Hollander

Hi Paul,

I guess I have not given you all of the information. The female that produced the Black Lace had previous to that point produced two other clutches. On both occasions she had been bred to an albino male. The babies from those clutches were by all standards normal phenotypically. Yes, I may have just missed the odds but I'd say at this point a case of a spontaneous dominant mutation occurring in the ovaries of the mother would be hard to fathom. We are still in the dark ages as far as understanding the mechanisms involved in the genetics of ball python morphs - but I contend that at this point, using the current models, the Black Lace has been proven recessive.

Thanks for your input,
Dan

Granted you are probably correct in saying that it's a recessive trait but probably doesn't PROVE them out. Every trait that is known had to pop up somewhere unless GOD was in his colorful mood the day he created ball pythons. It will eventually happen that a new co-dom trait will just pop up in a collection without any reason behind the mutation. He was also correct in saying that the a recessive trait isn't proven until the homozygous animals create hets and then the het's are bred together to create a homozygous animal, just like a co-dom animal isn't proven co-dom until a super is produced that produces all "het" versions that when bred together produce supers. It's just the way it is done until technology is brought into this hobby/biz and a better way is derived from it.

But by the way those things are awesome and put me on the list for some het's in 09 if you have any available, yeah I'm sure you've already heard that alot today.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of female holdbacks and several rescue normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Thanks for the update on the previous breedings. I was not aware of them. If black lace turns out to be some sort of dominant, it will add a possible time frame for the mutation to have happened.

Joshhutto pretty much said what I would have. It's only the word "proven" that sticks in my craw. Write "probably" or "I think" or "most likely", and I wouldn't beef. Besides, sometimes I've had to eat my own words, and when that happens, "probably" is a lot more digestible than "proven".

Whatever the genetics turn out to be, the snakes are fabulous, and I wish you the best of luck with them.

Paul Hollander