Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I purchased a pair of leopards about a month ago. One was 1/2" smaller than the other. I never noticed if it had a soft shell but when I picked it up 2 days ago, I could tell right away it was soft on the sides. I've also noticed, on both tortoises, their eyes constantly closed even while they are walking around or eating and their mouths look dry. They are both eating good.

This is my first pair of tortoises. But this what I've been doing:
I have been soaking them 2-3 times weekly. The diet has been chopped grass and hibiscus leaves and using pellets for ground cover in a large rubbermaid tub. The room has indirect sunlight and stays at a constant 83 degrees.

Since I disscovered the soft shell:
I've been soaking both tortoises in water with calcium power and adding weeds to their diet. I also seporated them so I can be sure the little one is eating well.

My questions are:
Should I soak them daily?
How long before I should start noticing a change?
Is there anything else I should do?

What kind of lighting are you using? If just indirect sunlight that may be your problem. Without uvb they cannot process calcium.Without being able to process calcium they will have weak bones/shell. Also calcium supplements in the water bath are not nearly as effective as calcium supplement on their food. If the eyes are closed even when eating something may be seriousely wrong, take your torts to a vet.

Thanks for repling.

I didn't mention that I have also been putting them in direct sunlight for some UVB but only for about 15min. a day. Then I soak them and put the cage in half sun half shade. I also must mention that when I soak them, their eyes open right up. I'm wondering if they are/were dehydrated. Should I soak them more often? I also just started giving them the calcium. I was a little worried that if I put the calcium on their food they may not like it and start rejecting food.

>>Thanks for repling.
>>
>>I didn't mention that I have also been putting them in direct sunlight for some UVB but only for about 15min. a day. Then I soak them and put the cage in half sun half shade. I also must mention that when I soak them, their eyes open right up. I'm wondering if they are/were dehydrated. Should I soak them more often? I also just started giving them the calcium. I was a little worried that if I put the calcium on their food they may not like it and start rejecting food.

15 minutes a day is not enough. You need to provide light and a basking spot light in their enclosure. UVB is very important for african tortoises, it is essential to their health. It does sound like they are dehydrated. Soak them daily for 15-20 minutes in luke warm water. My sulcata doesnt even notice the claclium supplement on his food, if they are ravenous eaters they wont either. Give it a try, mix it in very well and if that doesnt work offer them a small treat (piece of apple, my tort goes crazy for yellow squash, or cucumber) and load it up with calcium. Also make sure that your calcium supplement has little to no phosphorous. I cant stress enough the importance of UVB, a window will deflect the uvb rays, along with plasic or anything that is not open directly to the sun (unless its a screen). Hope some of this helps.

OK I'll pickup a UV bulb. I didn't want to put them in sunlight for too long. The FLA sun will cook them.

They are african torts, no fla sun will cook them dont worry. As long as you provide them with a hide spot where they can escape the sunlight they will be ok. Many people do very well with leopards outdoors in florida. When buying a uv bulb make sure it has the highest UVB% of the selection.

I plan on letting them loose in the backyard when they're big enough.
I just purchased a 7% bulb. So I guess I'll put it on a timer so it could be on all day?

you might find the website http://www.africantortoise.com/ to be very helpful. Check it out, its full of useful information.

Thanks, I've been reading up on them there.

My large (not the soft shell one)leopard poopped in his food today and I noticed it very dry and brittle. I don't really understand it as he's been soaked 3 times in the past 3 days. Maybe the sun has been drying them out too much? Could he be getting too much calcium? Or could it be that without the UVB they can't digest their calcuim? Good thing I got the UVB bulb so I don't have to worry about sunlight anymore. I'm going to keep soaking them daily until their poop softens.
I also noticed that as soon as I put the UVB bulb on they went under it and fell asleep. I guess they been waiting for it.

Do you have any idea how long before I should start seeing the tortoise/s getting better?

>>Thanks, I've been reading up on them there.
>>
>>My large (not the soft shell one)leopard poopped in his food today and I noticed it very dry and brittle. I don't really understand it as he's been soaked 3 times in the past 3 days. Maybe the sun has been drying them out too much? Could he be getting too much calcium? Or could it be that without the UVB they can't digest their calcuim? Good thing I got the UVB bulb so I don't have to worry about sunlight anymore. I'm going to keep soaking them daily until their poop softens.
>>I also noticed that as soon as I put the UVB bulb on they went under it and fell asleep. I guess they been waiting for it.
>>
>>Do you have any idea how long before I should start seeing the tortoise/s getting better?

Continue to soak them daily, I dont think the calcium would affect the feces in that manner. Also supplement the food with a good calcium supplement, with growing juvenilles it is very important. Firm feces isnt a bad thing, if they come out and look like grass, or the veggies they ate just compacted that is pretty normal. If it is dry and brittle when it is excreted you should continue soaking, and thing about providing a humid hide for them to absoarb more moisture. UV lights are great for indoor housing, but there is nothing on the market that can compare to natural sunlight. You probrably notice your torts being the most active when they are out enjoying the sun. The more natural sunlight the better. Also it is important indoors to create a temperature gradient so the torts can regulate their body heat at will. Many people place a heat light at one end and a uvb or other light that does not produce heat. A nice gradient from 80-100 degrees is ideal. The more you read and research the better care you will be able to provide.

Yes they are more active in the sunlight, but it looked more as if they were scrambling to find the shade. I took temps and it was 120 in the sun and 90 in the shade. So, I think it would be best to just use the UVB until they seem stronger. I have them in the same room as my pythons and it stays at a constant 83. I see about giving them a hot spot.
I'm still worried about the litle one, when I looked at her this morning, she seemed to have slitts going from her eyes to her nose. The eyes also looked slanted instead of round and she just seems misserable. I'm also afraid the other one might be heading in the same path. I'll take a pic when I get home and post it.

OK so by various request I reworked their complete habitat:
I created a hot zone of 95dgr and comfort zone of 85dgr.
I took out the pellet bedding and put a mixure of top soil and timothy hay on the hot zone of the tank and a mixure of play sand and timothy hay on the comfort zone.
I put a bowl of water on the hot zone and also sprayed water on the hot zone to keep it moist.
I put their food on the comfort zone.
I installed a timer that will turn on for 12hrs.

results:
Once they woke up they seemed to like it. They walked all around the tank. The small one (soft shell) went in the water and stayed for a few min and drank then got out and found the food. The big one started eating the hay, he'll eat anything. The only thing I don't like is that their feet are constantly full of dirt or sand and it's harder for them to get around. They keep getting beat up by the hay. Seeing her walking around she seemed to be excited and I'm a little more hopefull.

You're making good progress. Don't worry about the dirt stuck to their feet. As the dirt starts to pack down and maintain good consistency it will be less of a problem.

You're starting to do much better and I think that if you keep them in this setup with proper hiding spots, proper diet, and proper supplementation, you should see pretty good results within a short time.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I'm glad to see I'm heading in the right direction. I'm keeping the hide box out so they can get as much UVB as possible. When I start seeing improvement then I put back the hide.

Pic of their present habitat. I didn't want to take pics of them now, and freak them out...

you should put paper bags all around the see through sides, also you should invest into a electric theometer, they are worth every penny, but glad its going good

From the picture, they look like they're young hatchlings. How old are they? Hope they're doing better now.

-C

I'm still not sure if she's doing better. The habitat is as good as it can be, for now. I also ordered more things yesterday; bed-a-beast, cactus pads, TNT supplements, dandilion seeds. This should make it "perfect conditions". Not really sure what else to do but wait.
All she want's to do is sleep all day and I have to wake her so she can move around. I have to place her in the water dish. Then she'll stay there a while and drink alot. She's not really eating much even though I'm putting a varitey of greens. I'm hoping with the cactus it'll give her a better appetite.
I have noticed her eyes slanted instead of round and a kind of an eye brow over her left eye. I been hoping with the improved habitat it would give her better eyes but not yet.
Here's a picture of her, you can barely see what I mean about her eye but you can also see the red blotch on her side:

Waking her up, moving her, changing her habitat again. All this is going to stress her more and make her refuse food a few more days.

Their habitat is doing well. Make sure the temps are fine, and give them some hiding spots, and just leave them alone for a while (like at least a week).

If they're going to eat and recover, they're not going to do it with humans bugging them constantly.

Very happy to see that things are going better. In your picture that you posted I noticed feces in behind and to the right of the tort that looked mucosy. You may want to have a stool sample checked by a vet, sometimes you can just drop one off and have them analyze it.

Yes, I'm going to look for a local repile vet and take them both. I still don't think she doing all that well. I have been trying not to bother them. I only move them to put them in their water dish in the morning, this is also when I put fresh food. They stay in the water dish for about 5min then walk around. They both find the food, the big one stops and starts eating and little one just walks over it, finds a place to stop and sleeps there until the next morning.

Status:
It's been about 5 days since I changed everything over. For the past 3 days I've only looked at them in the morning, when I put fresh food and put them in there water dish. Still, I see the little one soak for a couple of min then gets out, find a spot and stays until the next morning when I soak them again. The big one soaks then goes looking for food. What else can I do? It seems as she's not even strong enough to look for food or go to her hide box. Is it time to take her to the vet? I've run out of ideas.

take them both to a vet. There are many good herp vets in fla.

I got a chuckle out of the last response.

If you care you'll follow it.

Ed

>>take them both to a vet. There are many good herp vets in fla.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I think she died yesterday. I took her to the vet on Sat. and first thing he said was, she is very sick. Aside from the soft shell he saw the red spots and said it was a blood bacteria. He noticed the bottom of her shell turning black and said it was rotting shell. He also found her dehydrated, which I couldn't understand if I was soaking her 2 times a day and keeping her area moist. He also acknowlegde that this must have been a prexisting condition if I only had her a month. He gave me 2 choices either a very expensive treatment $400-$500 or put her out of her misery. When I called my wife with the choices she got quiet and then started crying uncontrollably. I knew what I had to do. The doctor took her, gave her a shot of antibacteria and a shot of vitamin/calcium. He gave me calcium syrup and powder to take home. I was to give her one drop of syrup in her month and put powder on her food, incase she decided to eat and put her in a clean box to keep her shell clean. I would have to go every 2 days for 2 more shots.
Sunday we couldn't get her mouth open so I would wet her beak with the syrup and she would seem to lick her mouth clean. Yesterday, my wife said she was soaking her and when she picked her up, she opened her mouth. My wife quickly put a drop of syrup in there and put her back in her box. My wife noticed she started wiping her face with her legs and then ducked deep into her shell with her legs in front of her face. When I came home she was still the same way. I put her in some warm water and put her in the sun and she would not respond. I found it strange because she always comes out when soaking and in the sun. I put her back in her box. I saw my wife looking at her later that night and she was still in the same position. I pulled on her legs a little and they stretch out but go back to the same position and there is no other movement. Both my wife and I came to the conclusion that she died. My wife sat quietly crying and holding her. Before bed she went once more in hopes of finding that she moved. I also did the same this morning before I went to work. She was still the same.

It's a shame. Did you notice the problems with the plastron? That would have been a good indication to take her to the vet. With all the problems you had given us to help you through in the first post, we assumed it was merely a husbandry deficiency that would be easily remedied, but with this new knowledge we could have given you a simple 'take it to the vet' right away, which may or may not have helped.

The bottom line, however, is that you tried your best, and everyone here tried to help you, but there were so many factors involved. If you are even a tiny bit unsure as to whether or not the animal has passed on, take it back to the vet so they can make certain.

yes, I'm taking her to the vet after work. I am grateful I had everyone here to help. Although it might have been not enough for this little guy, the other little guy looks happy in his habitat. I'm also going to take him to the vet this weekend just to be sure he's OK.

The vet just confirm our fears. I want to thank everyone for all the great help and suggestions. At least my other tortoise is benefitting from it. The vet also told me to take him in ASAP even if he looks healthy. He said alot of the times by the time you notice something wrong it's too late.

Now that we know there was more problems with the other little guy than was first assumed (your description sounded like just another stressed little tort), take the healthier one in right away so that you can make sure he stays healthy.

I'm really sorry we couldn't do much to help. Had you noticed anything peculiar with the bottom of the shell on the little one? A picture of that would have been really helpful, but there wouldn't have been much you could have done at that point either.

In general your husbandry is severly lacking, but not to worry, you're new to the hobby and it's understandable. Everyone here has something wrong with their husbandry, guaranteed.

To start with, pellets don't make great floor covering. I would personally put a few inches of dirt in enclosure for substrate, and let it cook under the lights (which you DO need if you're going to keep torts indoors... you need a basking bulb and a UVB bulb). For a desert tort, you would want it to be fairly dry on top (to keep the overall humidity down), and moist beneath the surface. It takes practice to get the watering down, but I use that for my desert lizards, and my russian torts get a slightly more humid version (more water). My females actually have about 10-12" of dirt in their new habitat, and the male has just a few inches (keep in mind, he's little).

Give them a humid hiding spot. It doesn't matter how you do it, but you just want to create some sort of good hiding spot where the interior humidity is very high.

Soaking may help, but you'll also need to start supplementing their food.

Keep in mind, in 10 years you'll have some very large tortoises on your hands. Imagine how much their shell is going to grow in that time period (from the small shells they have now, to as large as 18" ). It's important that they have good calcium in their diet, but also that they have somewhere they can go to stay reserve their water storage (a humid area). If they are forced to stay in warm, dry conditions at all times, they'll just be in a continuous stage of dehydration, barely supported by the water in their food, and that's not how it's supposed to work. In the wild their food has very little water in it, so they've developed methods for conserving water.

Best of Luck to ya! I hope you can post some pics of the little guys, and maybe a pic of the setup once you get things straightened out.