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Getting worried about bites

captotterboy Sep 19, 2006 06:23 PM

Ok, i thought it was the mistakes i was making, but today my kingsnake bit down on my finger hard and was trying to coil around it. I washed my hands before touching her, so there could not have been anything on my hands. It has been three days since i fed her two pinkie mice, so she could not have been all that hungry... am i doing something wrong? im not worried now, im just potentially worried when she gets large enough to hurt and i want to break myself and her of any bad habits. SHould i feed her more? She is 18 inches and is eating 2 pinkie mice every three days. Im going to switch up to one fuzzie next week. All frozen.

Jeff

ps. in order to get her off i had to dunk her in water. Any other methods i should be using?

Replies (96)

Pastorpat Sep 19, 2006 06:29 PM

Sounds like you have the critter on the warm side!!! That's a feeding response you are getting if it's coiling. Drop the temp or feed it silly!!!!!! My kings, little and big, are jumping whatever moves!!!! And don't worry just be patient!

Pat

kingsnaken Sep 19, 2006 07:00 PM

How big is the girth of your king? Maybe pinkies are too small. Try getting a couple lare pinkies or fuzzies. If it is big enough to fit your finger, it can eat something at least the size of your finger. Derek

FunkyRes Sep 19, 2006 08:02 PM

At 18 inches, she wants fuzzies. Maybe even small hoppers.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

captotterboy Sep 19, 2006 08:10 PM

Ok, than ill move her feeding up a day and feed her the last two pickies i have that day and get her some fuzzies at the store.

zhivago97 Sep 19, 2006 08:14 PM

there are plenty of manageable snakes out there for you to raise.

i personally don't have patience to deal with aggression in any form.

if it's a feeding response or hunger issue, that's different, and something you can manage.

tom

Patton Sep 19, 2006 09:44 PM

I don't know if anybody told you this, but snakes bite! Millions of years of evolution have taught them to bite, in order to catch food, and to defend themselves from a threat(you!). Just because you throw them in a cage and breed them in captivity doesn't mean your a God and can change their natural instincts. Yes with patience, the keepers not the kept's, some snakes will calm down, especially when they don't feel theatened. It really drives me nuts when I here people in PET STORES say I want a pet snake. And then asks, does it bite? So then they are told what they want to here, no it's as tame as can be. So then a month later they bring it back to the store demanding their money back, because it bites them or even worse they let it go, so it can live free in wild suburbia. I keep Amazon Tree Boas, Green Tree Pythons and many different Lampropeltis, kings and milksnakes, and occasionally I do get bit, but that's something I'm willing to live with. It's always my fault though, I might not be paying attention or I'm in a hurry. Believe me being bit by a Kingsnake is nothing compared to being bit by a full grown GTP or Amazon. Personally I don't think Kingsnake bites are that big of a deal. It really bugs me to here people say that there is something wrong with the snake, when they really haven't done their homework to see what they're getting into. If your snake is bitting you, get used to it or figure out what you are doing wrong and prevent it. The snake is doing what nature designed it to do.

-Phil

Pastorpat Sep 19, 2006 09:56 PM

Phil, That's the kind of response I was thinking but didn't say because so many around here wear their feelings on their sleeves. But you are exactly right. I think everyone should get tagged by an Amazon, a Green Tree Python or a Green Tree Boa (I've had experience with all three!) to put a Kingsnake bite into perspective. Sooner or later you are going to make a mistake and take a hit! Of course I stay away from any size horse--they always bite me!!!!!

Pat

Patton Sep 19, 2006 09:59 PM

That darn snagle toothed horse! LOL!
-Phil

Pastorpat Sep 19, 2006 10:02 PM

Hey, Gets me every time!!!! So I stay away from them! Ilike snakes so I take the hits!!!

Pat

Fleck Sep 20, 2006 05:12 AM

Posted by: Patton at Tue Sep 19 21:44:05 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

I don't know if anybody told you this, but snakes bite! Millions of years of evolution have taught them to bite, in order to catch food, and to defend themselves from a threat(you!). Just because you throw them in a cage and breed them in captivity doesn't mean your a God and can change their natural instincts. Yes with patience, the keepers not the kept's, some snakes will calm down, especially when they don't feel theatened. It really drives me nuts when I here people in PET STORES say I want a pet snake. And then asks, does it bite? So then they are told what they want to here, no it's as tame as can be. So then a month later they bring it back to the store demanding their money back, because it bites them or even worse they let it go, so it can live free in wild suburbia. I keep Amazon Tree Boas, Green Tree Pythons and many different Lampropeltis, kings and milksnakes, and occasionally I do get bit, but that's something I'm willing to live with. It's always my fault though, I might not be paying attention or I'm in a hurry. Believe me being bit by a Kingsnake is nothing compared to being bit by a full grown GTP or Amazon. Personally I don't think Kingsnake bites are that big of a deal. It really bugs me to here people say that there is something wrong with the snake, when they really haven't done their homework to see what they're getting into. If your snake is bitting you, get used to it or figure out what you are doing wrong and prevent it. The snake is doing what nature designed it to do.

-Phil

Your right however not all Kings are the same Ca kings are way more prone to bite than lets say Ruthvens . Granted exceptions to all but as a rule Ca kings are the "top" biters in the group.
Ruthvens-Thayeri-Arizonas much better temperament.
Again you can argue exceptions but lets be realistic

BobS Sep 19, 2006 10:22 PM

I agree, Sometimes you have to kick them to the curb. I respectfully disagree with Patton and Pastorpat(who I like).I have been in the hobby for a lot of years, don't know it all but I have a lot of experience. I have been bitten by a lot of things and yes I agree it's part of the hobby and will happen. Sometimes you can ajust conditions of feeding and handling,housing and remedy the problem.

On the other hand. I have had "dog Tame " animals that for whatever reason became either overwhelmed by feeding responses (A lot of Cal. Kings in my experience) or just aquired major attitudes. Despite my best attempts to figure it out and remedy the problem the bad behaviour persisted and we found new homes..Good luck life is too short... mice cost a lot to feed a snake you are not enjoying. Just because I don't want to deal with a nasty animal doesn't mean I'm a "newbie" , (hate that word) or not "experienced enough". Over the years I have kept animals I knew were feisty and that was part of the enjoyment.

Sometimes you find you just want an animal you enjoy interacting with and has a wonderful trusworthy personality (accidents of course can happen) But I don't think you are "wrong" to want a mellow animal like A Nigrita, Gaigeae,Annulatta, Rubber Boa,Eastern King Etc.I don't agree with the macho crap about bites. It is a potential in the hobby but if I had a dog or cat that bit me all the time or a horse that tried to kick me at every opputunity,I assure you it's history... There are Drys that are wonderful sweetheat "pets" that could put a real hurtin on you but owners go on about them and they occupy a special place for their sweet dispositions. Let other folks keep the attitudes if they want but don't feel bad about moving on..Good luck.
Bob.

Pastorpat Sep 20, 2006 12:25 AM

Well Bob you made me think some more about my response. I don't keep Blood Pythons anymore because I got tired of being bit. They have a bite that is a definite owey!!!!!! And I really, truth be known, don't like getting bit by anything!!!! I guess what I was responding to is the idea that you can find/keep a snake without the possibility of being bit!!!! I have 6 Mex. Black Kings right now that I get tagged by (not feeding response) every time I'm in their cage!!! The only Rubber Boa I have ever had would bite me for no apparent reason (25 years ago when I lived in So. Cal.) I've had Mex. Milks that would bite and I've had Indigos that would bite. Heck, maybe I just taste good or smell like a rat (no comments FR!!!!) or handle them wrong. But I have seen too many folks want a snake that can be guaranteed not to bite. I just don't think that's a happening thing! But if Jeff's King is one of those that is biting for some other reason than hunger, I'd say get rid of it. But, as I said in my first post at the top of this thread, he also needs patience. I think the thing is hungry and once it's fed up it will quit. Of course confidence from the keeper is important too. Hesitate or show fear and chances are you are going to get tagged. Now Bob, as to the newbie thing, I disagree. I don't see it as a put down. I've been keeping critters for 42 plus years and I still consider myself a newbie, an "old fart" newbie, but a newbie all the same. And I still stay away from horses!!!!
Shalom,
Pat

BobS Sep 20, 2006 07:55 AM

You make a lot of good points Pat. Thanks. Wow. bitten by a Rubber boa?! I've been reading up on them for a while(Rubberboas.com, a real neat site!) I didn't think they could do that..LOL... and I felt bad that I once got musked by a Gaigeae. I put it in a very large cage too quickly and I think it had that "born free experience" when I went to pick it up. I've been bitten by them when they charged thinking food was coming their way(accidental) but I love that they (in my experience) NEVER do that chew on the hand thing for no apparent reason while holding them. Real rewarding snake to handle. They can occasionally do that milksanke "flinch" but even that isn't too often. (I have one that is highstrung, some lines seem to be more prone to nervous it seems)most are near perfect.
Bob

Patton Sep 20, 2006 04:39 PM

WoW Pat, I have a 4.6 group of Rubber boas that I have been working with since '90 and I have never been bit by a Rubber Boa, nor have I ever seen a bit of aggresion from them. I guess you learn something new every day. I'm glad too, 'cause I thought today was a total waste! LOL!
Thanks for the info.
-Phil

Pastorpat Sep 20, 2006 06:59 PM

Surprised Heck out of me 'cause I was always told they never bite!!!!! FR used to laugh at me and say that I could get any snake to bite!!!! Just my winning personality I guess.

Pat

fred albury Sep 20, 2006 03:42 PM

"DRYS" that could put a real hurtin are you ....are ANY Dry thats haveing a feeding response. I have had Drys that were not aggressive whatsoever, and come feeding time they became stark raving madmen(Madsnakes?) But thats a FEEDING response, not true aggression.

I agree that snakes that are OVERLY aggressive are a pain in the arse. Truly. Most people tend to BREED for :

#1) Color

#2) Pattern

#3)Rarity

#4) Size

But VERY FEW people actually take the time out to work with snakes based on their aggresiveness. Does it make a difference?
I believe so. An example would be Jud&Kellys Green Anacondas, purported to be tame and not aggressive whatsoever, from tame and non aggresive parents. Now.....how many of you out here have handled or seen a wild caught neonate anaconda? A healthy one, not one on deaths doorstep? Nasty beast wasnt it? So.....selective breeding for behaviour traits WORKS, but people DONT attempt it because they are breeding snakes for a certain look or to try and sell them to make MONEY off of them, in the hopes that somebody else will find their snakes valuable enough to purchase.

Id say(Unsolicited advice) get rid of the snake if you dont like it, but realize that unless the snake comes from aline of snakes that has been bred for that trait(Lack of aggresion, passivity) then theres no guarantee that the snake wont bite you. And even then it could bite you. Says so in the Bible...

And dont buy a pony, buy a hamster, but dont handle it.

Hamsters bite..hard too!...

lol

Fred Albury

BobS Sep 20, 2006 04:20 PM

Hi Fred! You're right , Hamsters bite hard. I'd rather get bit by a King any day.LOL.
Bob

Upscale Sep 20, 2006 06:03 PM

Ha Ha I told the story a long time ago but here it is again. I had a big Indigo chase me around the room thinking my white tube socks were big white rats. I have never moved like that for any snake, venomous or not. I would fear that things feeding response, and as you know it slammed the rats off every wall of the cage. It was a gentle giant any other time.
Picture with me mum...

BobS Sep 20, 2006 07:59 PM

nm

bluerosy Sep 20, 2006 10:07 PM

"I told the story a long time ago but here it is again. I had a big Indigo chase me around the room thinking my white tube socks were big white rats. I have never moved like that for any snake, venomous or not. I would fear that things feeding response, and as you know it slammed the rats off every wall of the cage."

Now THAT is a funny story.

I used to have a cat that did things like that. I can just picture that sceanrio. LMAOROTF!

Upscale Sep 20, 2006 10:41 PM

Hey that gives me a good idea for Steve-o in the next Jackass movie...
Trust me, you WILL ROFLMAO!!!

Pastorpat Sep 20, 2006 07:06 PM

Fred,
Hey how have you been!!! Great to read your words!!! The thing I always experienced with young Anacondas is how sneaky a lot of them were. They would let you hold them for awhile, and then without any apparent provocation you're tagged! An unaggressive Anaconda sounds like an oxymoron!!! Keep hangin' around Fred!

Pat

FunkyRes Sep 21, 2006 01:41 AM

I believe some breeders will hold back more than they intend to breed, and evaluate them for behaviour. I think VMSHerp does this, but I'm not positive it was them. Someone I was communicating with stated they did this. The behavioural rejects were then sold as sub adults.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

bluerosy Sep 19, 2006 10:38 PM

I breed kingsnakes at 18" and you are still feeding him pinkies? No wonder he is trying to devour your finger. That snake should be fed two small mice asap and your biting king problem will go away.

Remember that pinkies provide very little (if any) nutrition. They are mostly water and not much protien and no calcium. I try and get hatchling on fuzzies within the first month. The gaster they grow the healthier (and happier) they will be.

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 02:11 AM

You bread california kings at 18 inches?

30 is believable.
24 I think would be a fluke, at least for the females.
18 I find hard to believe.

I could be flat out completely wrong.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

FR Sep 20, 2006 10:31 AM

I have to wonder what gives you such a good understanding of these snakes? Please take no offense, but you make such difinitive statements and yet you have very little experience.

Yes they can and do normally reproduce at a very small size. This is very normal for wild reptiles. In my experience, most species can reproduce at one half their normal adult lenght. So a female cal is normally 36inches, so 18 inches fits that generalization. Female cal kings can reach much greater size as well. Of course it doesn't mean they HAVE to reproduce at the size, it simply means they can.

THis is a great question, many of us experienced keepers have discussed. What causes some to reproduce at a smaller size, and what causes others to grow more? This occurs within one clutch and its rarely logical as to which do what.

In fact, this year I did have a cal king that size successfully reproduce, OK, its was 19 1/2 inches.

ALso, there is no ill effect, other then keepers not providing the right care, which is common. Cheers

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 10:45 AM

How many Cal Kings have you bred at 18 inches?
I'm seriously curious.

I got out of herps for awhile, but I bred many as a teen, and I had a great mentor - I went to church with Dr. Bob Stebbins, who fostered my fascination with reptiles.

I collected several gravid wild females, and several wild females under 30 inches. None of my wild females that were gravid were ever under 30 inches, and none of the wild females under 30 inches were ever gravid.

I think its a real fluke if and when one that small breeds, and I'd like to see documentation on how often it occurs before I will accept it is common.

I don't know growth rates in the wild, but I suspect a lot of Cal Kings real 18 inches by their first winter, and are well over 2 feet by the second winter.

Anyway, I asked him if he bred Cal Kings at 18 inches. I didn't state that he didn't, I asked him if he did. So far he hasn't answered.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

bluerosy Sep 20, 2006 10:59 AM

I will post some kingsnakes that bred for me at 18" with measuring tape next to them.

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 11:03 AM

I appreciate it.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 11:12 AM

btw, I'm not questioning your honesty.

I've looked for studies on appropriate size to breed Cal Kings - and I can't find any online. I'm sure universities have done studies on this, but unfortunately it seems (probably for funding reasons) that a lot of universities do not make these studies available unless you pay a sizeable fee to get access to their articles, and you do not know what you are getting until you pay the fee (which is very high for access to all of them, and sizeable for access to individual articles if you happen to know which article has it).

I do know that Applegate published a paper (if you can call it that) on the web for free, stating that he had underweight colubrids that did develop follicles, but that breeding them resulted in infertile eggs and sometimes the death of the snake, indicating to me that follicle development does not mean it is safe to breed the snake.

But what do I know, I'm not "experienced".
-----
3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Pastorpat Sep 20, 2006 11:21 AM

Yo Funky,
I've known FR since he was in high school and I was in Jr. High. He taught me most of what I know about snakes in the wild and breeding/keeping. I know, I've seen the small californiae he has bred. You can believe it or not. He could care less. He knows what he has done. And with what I have seen him do I'm more inclined to listen to him that any study from a University. You know what they say about the meaning of pHD--piled higher and deeper!!!! Heck, I have a MDiv and it doesn't make me any closer to God than anyone else!!!! It's just a piece of paper!!! Just my $.02.

Pat

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 11:46 AM

Granted - but unless I see something to the contrary, I have to go with what I have seen, and what people I know who do know their stuff have experienced.

FR knows his stuff, I don't doubt it. There are also some species of kingsnake that are much smaller than cal kings, and maybe even some cal king locales that are smaller than what I have experience with. I know there's dwarf gophers on some island off the coast of california, and now I hear about dwarf retics that maybe reach 8 or 9 feet max.

I don't doubt that it happens, I just think it is the extreme exception, and far from the norm and I speculate for cal kings far from healthy unless it is a dwarf locale.
-----
3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

bluerosy Sep 20, 2006 01:57 PM

Posted by: FunkyRes at Wed Sep 20 11:46:24 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Granted - but unless I see something to the contrary, I have to go with what I have seen, and what people I know who do know their stuff have experienced.

I am no Frank Retes but I have been keeping snakes for 40 years and still maintain a very large collection. It is how I make my living.

Pastorpat Sep 20, 2006 03:14 PM

Ranier,
Please forgive me. You are definitely not chopped liver!!!!!! I hold you in deepest respect and appreciate all that you have accomplished with these critters. I did not mean to slight you.

Shalom,
Pat

Upscale Sep 20, 2006 03:35 PM

"Ranier,
Please forgive me. You are definitely not chopped liver!!!!!! I hold you in deepest respect and appreciate all that you have accomplished with these critters. I did not mean to slight you."

I want to second that post. I have great respect for you and consider you a modern master. I sometimes think FR is a little old school, that is not to say he is wrong about anything, I just respect you because you are up on the latest things, hybrids and know alot from having been involved in alot of the current trends for a very long time. Most of my advice is intended to help a newbie, not intended for someone like you. If you're talkin- I'm shuttin' up and listening.

bluerosy Sep 20, 2006 04:42 PM

I did not mean that title "what am I chopped liver" to come across as serious. I was doing it with a grin. I guess I should have put a smiley face on the end...

..thanks for the compliments anyway. Now I can go forth and breed some 12 year old mice ..(in mice age that is). LOL!

antelope Sep 21, 2006 04:17 AM

Old school? HEHEHEH, I think Frank was doing all the crosses and hybrids before any of us knew what one was, lol! I also think you might have blown off the only guy who may well know if it is common for cal kings to breed in the wild at 18"! Man, we are some awesome concrete jungle herpers here(slaps self on back), but not that many of us have half of the experience you are requesting! LOL! This is beyond me now! Old school? I hope I get to be old school some day!
Todd Hughes

Upscale Sep 21, 2006 12:01 PM

Man if we had to go into such detail on every post we would be writing these huge long posts. It is almost imposable to post anything without having to clarify and on and on.

Here’s my take on old school/new school.

Maybe I am wrong, but I consider the Applegate style recipe documented in his milksnake maintenance manual to be the dividing line between “old school” and the new breeders.

The new way is to force what we want, having perfected a recipe for what we would consider success. I would say the new school is less about happy pet snakes and more about production and bang for your buck. Not that it is that cut and dried either.

FR never is shy about jumping in and defending/asserting himself or making his points. I read everything he posts. I know he is an icon in this hobby. He speaks for himself, I don’t mean to do that here, just explaining my perspective as a reader of his stuff.

FR seems to me, maybe I am wrong, to be less about efficient mass production recipe and more about letting the snake/monitor live as close to a natural cycle, observation, and letting that be your set of instructions- let the animal teach you, not the other way around.
FR seems to be always looking at it from the animals perspective. I relate it to “Ditmars style” Observation, observation, observation. Without that, you have nothing- no clue.

That’s the thing that FR seems to be most emphatic about - people who don’t have a clue. They haven’t put in the hours and they don’t know what to do when those things come up that are outside the recipe. Poor husbandry and poor maintenance. The recurring lament of the great FR in his posts.

I bet he is the master behind getting that recipe down pat with his years of observations. It is “new school” to take those discoveries to the max for full production advantage. It is true of both styles that the needs of the snakes are met, I just feel the new style places emphasis on meeting the needs of the breeder.

Old school is not derogatory or antiquated. It is the foundation. That is the basis for all that comes next.

I think a contributing factor to old school vs new school is the fact that when the (example) Pueblan milk was brought into herptoculture it was through the field collecting of nine specimens or whatever, they were the rarest of the rare. You absolutely had to baby each with the highest degree of tried-and-true successful maintenance. Once the recipe was determined and they were as common as chicken eggs, the new style breeders had the luxury of having a lot more room to experiment and margin for error. The experimenting went to high production, pushing the limits, taking more risk, and again tweaking the recipe for the new school style of maintenance for production. Both ways contribute to our knowledge and we can draw upon when establishing new things, hybrids, things that have never even existed before. The new style is like, o.k. lets see what we can do with it- lets try this... I bet FR has had his share of that too. Maybe he started out flipping rocks in Bedrock with Fred Flintstone- whatever.

All this is my perspective on this, nothing more. A detailed response to your feeling that I slighted the great FR in some way. Did I? I don’t think so. Let me say, that I would consider myself to be old-school. I am self taught, or taught by snakes. I aspire to become more the new style. Take all my hours of observation and old-school maintenance and refine my husbandry to the latest and most successful techniques of the cutting-edge hybrid breeders.

I can see the day when we take blood from a cycled female and transfuse it into 12 month old power-fed females, no brumating required, and the use of hormones, phernomes and artificial insemination to be the norm. We won’t order snakes from the classifieds, we will order sperm like prized bull production, or clones of patented creations. Do the “old school” breeders realize their roll in that futuristic vision becoming reality? I tip my hat to them but my vision of the future of herptoculture is decidedly “new school.” As Michael Corleone once said, “We’ll get there, Pop”.

Pastorpat Sep 21, 2006 12:54 PM

Upscale,
You have hit it out of the park. FR never advocates mass production for $$$$. When he could have he didn't. He would rather get a few eggs as close to nature as he can than just produce to produce. You can say a lot of things about him but the one that I use to best describe him is curious. He is always seeking answers. But unlike most of us he doesn't have it set before the seeking began. You're absolutely right. One of his natural abilities is to be able to sit and observe. I remember a trip to Arizona where we must have sat two or three hours watching a Checkered Garter hunt in Sabina Canyon along the creek edge. Being the ADD type that I am it was driving me crazy. I went back through this post. I don't see a place where he advocates us putting two snakes together at 18". He is saying that if conditions are right for them and they are together they could breed. This is what he has always advocated as long as I have known him. And its why he has so many firsts in breeding. He was doing it before anybody else. It is because of him that we even have access to captive bred moniters. When you can successfully and consistently do what he does with unusual and rare Herps then you can say what you will and I will listen. But I don't care how many getula you get to breed you're just another guppy breeder if you think that is the pinnacle. And this guppy breeder seeks to learn from the master! As I said before, I choose to wait before putting them together because I need for them to pay for their upkeep so I want the biggest clutch I can get.

Shalom,
Pat

bluerosy Sep 20, 2006 04:37 PM

Pat,

No need to ask for any forgivness. I was not directing this at you.

I just started this thing about the 18" and ol' FR gets involved and it is FR this and FR that. LOL! I am an old fart to, just not as old as FR. heh heh! I guess he gots me gid on dat.

FR Sep 20, 2006 04:53 PM

Or you read it online. hahahahahahahahaha I am sorry, but I have to laught at that. Really, nothing against you, but your being silly. If you read it from someone that wrote something(but may or may not have never done anything) it outweights someone who reports to you from personal experience. How funny.

About me, I have been breeding kings of all kinds, since 1964, ask PastorPat. I also am the individual who blasted out all these Calking morphs and types. Yes, I hatched the first albino as well(not just the first, but the first few hundred). What all that means is, I have hatched thousands upon thousands of Cal kings. Hmmmmmmmm I must have really liked them.

Now, I still breed calkings. I also do field work with many other types of reptiles, I have done so, all over the world. And yes, we see this 1/2 sized females gravid commonly.

In our field studies here, we can go years and only see large or normal sized gravid females. Then for some reason, have years where we see lots of tiny and buddy, I mean tiny females reproduce. We work with montane rattlesnakes, which normally breed in the 2 foot range, yet we have found gravid females that were around a foot and had only shed twice in their lifes.

What makes me different then you is, I do not follow or care what people do. If a reptile cycles at a small size, I do not question the reptile. I only try to support it. I do not have problems with smaller females. Nor do they have problems with fertility in small females.

Consider, if a small female cycles in nature, the males will breed it. What else would they do? They do not have statutory rape laws in nature.

Lastly I have to ask, why do you make all these hard rules about stuff? What practical good is that? If you have a snake cycle at a very small size, what options do you have???? I hope you understand, its far easier on a female to lay fertile eggs, then absorb or lay infertiles. To cycle is what they are designed to do. As long as your not injectioning hormones or something, then they the snakes are the ones cycling or breeding, you have no control over it. Unless, you strave them to make sure they do not breed until you think they are ready. hahahahahahahaha Cheers

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 06:31 PM

> Or you read it online. hahahahahahahahaha I am sorry, but I have
> to laught at that.

That's not what I said or even implied, and I said nothing about reading it online. What you are saying is what I am reading online.

What I would very much appreciate is a reference to a peer reviewed academic article on the breeding habits of L g californiae in the wild that includes the size at which females breed. I'm sure such papers have been written, there are probably several of them. Unfortunately, I don't have access to such papers, so I can't even check my own position.

I don't have a paper saying they don't breed that small, but I also don't have a paper saying they do. A peer reviewed academic paper would be pretty hard for either side to refute. Maybe the getula book when it goes to press will shed some light on this.

Without that, the only knowledge available is anectdotal. Given the anectdotal choices, I'll go with my own experiences, where no cal king under 30 inches I've collected has ever been gravid, and every gravid cal king I have collected has been close to 3 feet if not longer.

I have collected a fair number in Walnut Creek, CA, as a teen. Many of them gravid. Many of them under 30 inches.

That doesn't mean they don't, it is just my admittedly limited experience.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

DISCERN Sep 20, 2006 06:39 PM

!
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Genesis 1:1

Ace Sep 20, 2006 09:03 PM

>>>>I don't have a paper saying they don't breed that small, but I also don't have a paper saying they do.

In Wright and Wright's book "Handbook of Snakes of the U.S and Canada" 1957, They have listed as breeding size for Cali Kings at 520mm, or 20.4" for males and 525mm, or 20.6" as a breedable size for Cali Kings

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Ace

antelope Sep 21, 2006 04:29 AM

Wow! There it is in black and white, documented AND read on the internet, go figure! Well 20.6 isn't much bigger than 18" and common to boot. HMMMMM, I'm stickin' with old school! Man, FunkyRes, you CAN'T question the teacher, sheesh! I don't think you will find what you are looking for in the new kingsnake book, but if you do it will probably have quite a bit of "annectdotal" information from people like, oh I don't know, F.R.!!! Let's move on!
Todd Hughes

antelope Sep 21, 2006 04:40 AM

Here's one you probably won't beleive either. I just got back from west Texas looking for alterna and splendida, when a friend and I observed a blacktailed rattlesnake eating bats from an overpass! B.S.? Nope, I said I wonder if Frank would express the bolus to verify what we were thinking, answer was yes, it is submitted into literature as we speak as the first instance of that species eating bats. How did he do it? I don't know but do it he did. These are the kinds of things we see in the field every once in a blue moon, so it is important to document these events to be sure. But field experience goes hand in hand with academia, one doesn't do well without the other. Without Lewis and Clark you would have no Smithsonian. Small kings breeding successfully? Here's a hypothesis: Older female succumbs naturally or is predated upon, old male gets new girlfriend next season, all the other girls his size are taken in his area, but there is a new batch of young gals down the road. Fill in the blanks. Smaller male pursues smaller female and gets eaten on the way by the larger male! I can see that scenario, lol!
Todd Hughes

FunkyRes Sep 21, 2006 01:30 PM

I think some of you do not understand what my position is.

In my very first post I stated I could be wrong.

That 20 inch thing that Ace posted is informative, but it is only an indication of biological ability to breed. There is a difference between biological ability to breed, and when breeding commonly occurs. Sometimes they are the same, sometimes they are not.

I will note that Ace is the only person who has posted any kind of academic reference that touches the subject.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 06:39 PM

btw - before you laugh at me again, I request that you read the post I made that started this. I'll repost it here with one line in particular bolded, that was in my original post.

------
You bread california kings at 18 inches?

30 is believable.
24 I think would be a fluke, at least for the females.
18 I find hard to believe.

I could be flat out completely wrong.
------
As such, from the very beginning, I made it clear that I am speculating.

Thank you.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 06:51 PM

> Lastly I have to ask, why do you make all these hard rules about
> stuff? What practical good is that?

If I set standards, and follow them, then I can adjust them as need be in the future.

I come from a programming background, you set up specifications and then follow the specifications. If the specifications were bad, you change the specifications and document the change in your code comments. That way, way off in the future when in the future you look at what changes were made when and why.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

antelope Sep 20, 2006 12:27 PM

Dude, do you know who you are talking to? Frank Retes pioneered kingsnake breeding as well as moniters. Honestly, if you don't know, be quiet and listen! It's ok to ask questions but keep an open mind to all. Not meaning to sound harsh but I think lots of people with mass experience don't contribute to the forum because of lack of respect. No one here is a god but there are some here that were there doin' all the work and we all want the answers with very little work involved. Really, not meaning disrespect to anyone here but can we all just open up to possibilities that others are presenting? Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. It has, it has been documented, go do the homework! Again, sorry to sound harsh, just givin' credit where credit is due, besides, Frank might decide to have you for lunch and we ALL don't want that, LOL!
Todd Hughes

BobS Sep 20, 2006 12:36 PM

Oh yeah...Nobody wants Frank chomping on their bones...LOL...A wonderful guy with a real gift for figuring out snake stuff but sometimes he wakes up on the wrong side of the rock and rattles,hisses and musks..LOL Also occasionaly looks for a skirmish with some Caudal luring. It does keep things interesting!
Bob

antelope Sep 20, 2006 12:54 PM

LOL! That was a compliment Frank, LOL!!!
Todd Hughes

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 12:45 PM

That's fine and all.
I would love to see the documentation for it, which is all I have asked for.

I know he's a guru.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 12:47 PM

What would be nice is examples of preserved cal kings in specimen libraries that are 18 inches and gravid. I know UC Berkeley has an extensive vertebrate specimen collection, I'm sure many other universities do as well.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Kerby... Sep 20, 2006 07:52 PM

I too have bred numerous females at 18-19 months old and that is with a 4 month cool down as well. I breed just about all of my 18-19 month old males depending upon the size of their female partners.

I've bred at 18 months old:
California Kingsnakes
Cornsnakes
Rosy boas
Sonoran Gopher snakes

I know THAT is not what you are looking for (documentation).....but it does happen ALL THE TIME....at least in my herp room.

Wo is me...........

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Keith Hillson Sep 20, 2006 08:10 PM

Kerby

The bone of contention isnt 18 months but what they claim is breeding at 18"

Keith
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Kerby... Sep 20, 2006 08:53 PM

I understand that. But part of the discussion was breeding females that weren't 2-3 years old.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Keith Hillson Sep 20, 2006 08:58 PM

Well you have to agree I can have a 18 month old snake from the same clutch as you and yours can be 27" and mine can be 18". Im not sure why anyone would argue over the age for breeding purposes. Age is irrelevant its all about size IMHO.

Keith
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Kerby... Sep 20, 2006 08:55 PM

**30 is believable.
24 I think would be a fluke, at least for the females.
18 I find hard to believe**

Kerby...
-----
Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 09:50 PM

18 months I never disputed.
In my opening post on the subject, I stated I might be flat out wrong.

As far as captive husbandry is concerned, I certainly was, as a lot of people who have absolutely no reason to deceive do it.

I'm still not convinced that it is a common practice (opposed to fluke) in wild populations to breed at 18 inches (or even under 2 feet) of length.

But I don't think that will be settled here, and I may be flat out wrong there.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Kerby... Sep 20, 2006 11:52 PM

I will admit that breeding at 18 months is common for me......but most of my 18 month old cal king females that bred were bigger than 18 inches.

Some were definitely around 24 inches.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Upscale Sep 20, 2006 08:14 AM

I agree with you. I believe a snakes life is just a mad race to survive long enough to reproduce. Anything beyond is snake-life gravy. I believe most wild kingsnakes first meal is another hatchling. Maybe second meal too. There is a lot more meal there than the usual captive first meal of pinkie or pinkie part. I think we often underestimate the size food item they are capable of. Sometimes when moving them up to fuzzies it will take them a scary long time to get it down, but they will. They seem to get bigger very fast with good feeds. I think it is also a rare thing for a wild snake to find a nest of pinkies and only eat one. I bet they eat them all. So the wild one is eating twelve pinkies. How many of us feed our hatchling twelve pinks? That would probably be the equivalent to eating another little snake. I don’t think you can over feed a hatchling. The first six months are critical and you can get them up to breedable size a lot faster than most people think. I think that is more common to the wild ones, so it is probably more natural to do that in captivity.

BobS Sep 20, 2006 08:55 AM

Nice to see some interesting things posted.

This is definately a puzzling line of thought. I know folks on both sides that really seem to know what they are doing.

Some folks give experiences of snakes like Gaigeae having problems breeding at less than 5" and 4 or 5 years.

Eastern kings like wise eggbound, kinked, deformed babies etc. when bred young.

Then you have folks like FR that says if they cycle even at small/young sizes they are ready and it's borne out by healthy babies.

Some folks maintain young animals bred young burn out and die early from the stress. Others point to ancient animals that have been breeding since very young/small and still going strong many,many years later.

Very puzzling but clearly folks at both sides are producing healthy offspring. Hard to know what to think sometimes, but it is VERY interesting to hear about.

Bob

Pastorpat Sep 20, 2006 11:26 AM

Morning Bob,
You know that thing about burned out breeders has more to do with our poor husbandry than anything else. Feed 'em up before breeding, feed 'em good after laying and keep all other factors right and there should not be burn out. At least my experience shows it. BTW--have yet to bitten by a Black Milk! Of course I have never handled one!!!!
Shalom,

Pat

BobS Sep 20, 2006 12:26 PM

You're miising a real treat if you ever get to check out a nice big solid black one! Although I'm pretty sure you would think them a bit boring when you come from a Pit background LOL. Stay well.
Bob.

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 10:31 AM

I suspect that most kings actually have lizards or smaller snakes as their first meal, not other hatchling kingsnakes. I suspect that those who examine the belly contents of young kings are much more likely to find smaller reptiles than other hatchlings of the same species, though I'm sure the latter does occur. Most don't eat until after the first shed, and by then, the clutch has spread out.

And I don't think it is a mad race to survive long enough to reproduce. I think sometimes we are taught that in evolution class. While it is true that survival of the fittest combined with luck determines who does reproduce, I think phrases like "mad race to survive long enough to reproduce" are incorrect. They want to survive, and when they are sexually mature, they want to reproduce when the conditions are right for them to do so.

I know when I was 8, I had absolutely no desire to rush to reproduction. I did want to survive. At 14, sure, my sex drive kicked in pretty big. But there was no "mad rush to survive to reproduce" and I honestly don't see how such a speculatory motivation can be supported by anything.

Snakes that reach adulthood in the wild often have many many years of sexual reproduction fathering (or mothering) many many clutches. The more clutches they can father (or mother) the better the odds their genes will be passed on to other snakes that live to reproduce.

They reproduce because they are sexually mature and conditions are right, not because of a sex drive.

Finding a rodent nest also isn't as hard as you might think it is. Gopher snakes are not much bigger than kingsnakes when they hatch, and they don't often take lizards. I hatches a clutch of gopher snake eggs during the summer of the 8th grade. For my science project, I did an experiment to see whether baby gopher snakes preferred pinkies or baby alligator lizards. Every single one of them took pinkies and refused the baby lizards.

I won the school science fair. Unfortunately, I was disqualified from the county fair because the project involved the death of animals (pinkies). Oh well. I should have read the fine print on the rules better, and mixed baking soda with vinegar like everyone else.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Upscale Sep 20, 2006 12:05 PM

I love contributing here, I appreciate all that do. I certainly decide for myself if I take someone’s advise or their account of things how much of it I judge to be reliable or useful. I am always worried I am posting something that is too long, and I try to not get too detailed. So sometimes the generalities are not exact, or exactly how I would explain something if I were going on and on. I assume a lot of these posts are like that. Nothing is meant to be written in stone, as they say. It all goes into filling up your bucket. You have to sort through it all and let that be your guide, along with your own observations and experiences. The important thing is not being afraid to contribute or bounce ideas off of each other. If somebody posts who doesn’t even know how to feed a snake, isn’t it cool that it leads to all these little observations that end up being useful or interesting to all?
As far as breeding the 18” or whatever- I am sure that it does lead to smaller clutches and all the negative things we all hear about. But it is possible, and it is primarily done in the hope that the breeding produces the thing you are looking for as quickly as possible. As in hets you are raising up to get the homo whatever. The goal is to get that coveted hatchling at all cost (to the momma) and get on to production of the (name here). You will see gravid wild snakes that proves it occurs in nature. The accepted norm for captive husbandry is to wait two or three years, no matter the size. There is no real reason to absolutely have to wait that long, and in a couple of years that may no longer be considered the norm any more.

DISCERN Sep 20, 2006 12:30 PM

Now this is just my opinion, but I do think though that this whole thing about breeding at 18 inches is just fueled by the inability to wait till the female is bigger to breed. In other words, the breeder simply does not have the patience nor the want to wait till the poor female is bigger, and then uses the fact that it can be possibly done, or some information that sounds scientific, to justify it.
Yes, it can be done, but I do not know one breeder that would breed a king at 18 inches. In fact, they would all most likely agree with the fact of waiting till they were 3 years old at least and/or around 36 inches.
Take care!
Billy

Image
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Genesis 1:1

BobS Sep 20, 2006 12:38 PM

nm

antelope Sep 20, 2006 12:51 PM

I just got back from Brewster county, Texas looking for a female splendida like the one you show to match up with the axanthic male I caught last year. The snake was found, she is 26" and she will be ready next year no doubt! IMHO, she is the right size, not because I want it to be so, but because these are not huge snakes to begin with, exceptions noted. She is a snake specialist and i will have my hands full converting her, but it can and will be done, as the w.c. male went readily to rodents. I believe cal kings are about the same size as splendida on average and are very similar in many respects. Whether a clutchmate or litter of mice is their first meal is interesting because I believe that sets a precedent for future appetite preference. Interesting you mentioned the gophers, as I am almost sure that these are the first meal that are taken in my snake's case. Prairie dog holes produce a variety of prey items but the overwhelming numbers of gopher snakes produced and the feeding response to them over mice leads me to believe that is their preferred prey in this case. I have seen them hunting cuts for snakes and/or mice as well. I am confident that this girl is big enough to go the distance next breeding season. All that said, just my .02!
Todd Hughes

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 01:42 PM

It should be noted - FR himself has recently stated that captive behaviour often differs from wild behaviour, in the thread about snakes eating themselves.

Such behaviours include eating themselves and rubbing their noses raw. FR noted this as a sign of mental illness.

Self infliction in humans is considered abnormal behaviour as well, and is considered a sign of mental illness.

Biologically capable of breeding a ready to breed are two different things. A female homo sapien who is 11 may be biologically ready to breed despite her small size, but it is considered abnormal for them to do so, even sexual activity at that age is a sign of "issues".

-=-
My little sister was a gymnastics prodigy until she injured her elbow forcing her out of the sport. 5 days a week she worked out a gym in walnut creek, coached by the best (Same Coaches that Tracie Talevara, on the 84 olympics team, had). I got dragged to that gym almost every night because Dad was not home by the time mom had to leave for it, and he often worked late.

The hill behind that gym was full of kingsnakes. Lots of fence lizards and alligator lizards, occasional western skink. Sometimes I would find a gopher snake, but kingsnakes were the dominant snake. I found a lot of them. Only the big females were ever gravid, never the small ones.

That's why documentation on it being common in the wild would be of value to me. I'm sorry, I just think it is rare, and if trying to mimic nature (such as the laying conditions that FR promotes) as best as possible is what we should do, then should we be breeding females at a smaller size than what the wild populations breed at?

I know vertebrate zoology collections have many kingsnakes preserved, and I know many serious herpers who have scientific permits relieving them of bag limits take field notes on what they find including size and certainly note a gravid specimen when they find one. It should therefore be possible to document this behaviour in the wild if it is common in the wild, and not just a fluke.

I understand such publications may not be available without a fee, but certainly there are some people here in the academic world who could at least point to the references.

I'm going to exit this thread, since I'm basically just blowing wind at this point, but I hope that such documentation turns up, and if it does, I will attempt to get legal access to the article (maybe my local library can get it for me).
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

bluerosy Sep 20, 2006 02:08 PM

Funky

I have been breeding them for years that are small.

Try and do a search of FR's posts on this whole thing. Its has been discussed here mamny times before. It is not unhealthy for a smaller female to breed. So many misconceptions on your posts (and others) it has my head spinning. I think FR's posts cover it all and explain it much better than I ever could. He has an ability to go off into 5 different directions and still make his point. I beleive its called the geshtalt method of thinking/writing.

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 02:47 PM

That's fine.
Perhaps I do have some mis-conceptions, and I certainly don't want to end up with "bad blood" between me any any other posters here.

I do not intent to insult anyone or doubt their level of knowledge, particularly individuals whom I know have more knowledge than me.

I still though would like to know what documented field research has been done on the breeding size of female L g californiae "in the wild" where the young girls have an opportunity to evade the horny boys.

It would be educational, and perhaps relieve me of my mis-conceptions.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Pastorpat Sep 20, 2006 03:09 PM

Billy,
Look at your statement. "I don't know one breeder who would breed their snakes at 18"." We all are products of the way we see things. I am going to breed a pair of Splendida next season. I am?????? What's that all about???? If I breed them too small, too young, too whatever, I will burn them out. What if it doesn't have squat to do with I, me, he, she, etc. Wouldn't it be more correct to say that if conditions are conducive the Splendida may breed next season???? We decide what we're going to do, how it should be done, all the time taking credit for it when it is the snake making life choices!!! Back in the dark ages, before we knew how "it should be done", I kept California Kings in large cages together. I kept them well fed so they wouldn't eat each other. I didn't worry about a temp. gradient in the cage. I didn't know about brumating. All I know is they thrived and in their thriving they lived out their lives even breeding!!!! Of course now that I know the "right way" they are in seperate cages and they get brumated. But still it's their call as to whether they will breed or not. I try not to forget that simple fact.
BTW--awesome Splendida. If it came from Don Shores I have three of his myself!
Shalom,
Pat

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 03:33 PM

> Back in the dark ages, before we knew how "it should be done", I
> kept California Kings in large cages together. I kept them well
> fed so they wouldn't eat each other. I didn't worry about a temp.
> gradient in the cage. I didn't know about brumating. All I know
> is they thrived and in their thriving they lived out their lives
> even breeding!!!!

Back in the 80s - I used Pine Bark for substrate. That's what the East Bay Vivarium sold in huge bags. That's what everybody I knew used. I used it for just about everything except garter snakes (pine bark and and large water area don't mix).

Now the reports are that it has some kind of oil that irritates reptiles and should not be used. In some forums (I haven't seen it happen here) when someone mentions they use pine bark, they get screamed at about how their reptile is going to die because of it.

Maybe the pine bark sold at EBV was somehow different, I don't know, but it is interesting to see how what is recommended one day can be "know to everyone" to be very bad the next day.

The legitimate problem with pine bark is ingestion, which can be solved be feeding in a paper bag (or tub), I honestly don't know how real the oil irritant problem is.

I do know that I haven't had a single eye cap problem since switching to other stuff, and I do remember them happening with some frequency back in the 80s.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

DISCERN Sep 20, 2006 04:09 PM

Pat,
Yeah, that splendida is from Don Shores!!!! My first and only one!!!! I had waited years for one like this. When I bought her, I may have been the most excited I have ever been buying a kingsnake.

Yes sir, I looked at that statement, and here it is again: " I don't know one breeder who would breed their snakes at 18." I even talked to one today during lunch and we again, had a good discussion about this very topic.

Your post is very good and I see what you are saying but we may just have to agree to disagree. The reference to the " dark ages " can not be applied here to this topic, as this is not the norm to my knowledge, and yes again, I do not know one breeder that would breed a king at 18 inches. This is not to say that I know tons and tons of breeders, but let's just say that breeding kings at 18 inches is very much looked down upon by breeders I know that have been breeding even from the 70's.

And yes, it is still the snakes call. I have learned from experience as well on this subject and the results didn't justify the means.

And by the way, I just got done taking some killer pics of one of my northern pines. Get ready to covet!!!!!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

bluerosy Sep 20, 2006 04:32 PM

Billy,

One thing I noticed when breeding hybrids is that when I have a new type of cross, I don't know how big they are supposed to get. Because i don't have any ("preconceieved" idea on the actual adult size of an animal I am guessing on the breeding size they should be. For instance,.. Lets say I breed a pyro-greeri-ruth-atlerna-blairs-sinaloan with a honuran-pueblin-floridana (AAlso known in hybrid breeding circles as PGRABS x HPF). I have never raised on of these up and so I throw a small male into a cage with a small female and they breed and lay eggs. Next two years this animal grows to a 5' size and is still breeding.

I am trying to say is we all have preconceieved ideas and thinking out of the box is sometimes (by accident) a learned experience rather than taught.

Cal knigs are not big snakes. They don't even get that big compared to brooks kings. I breed the brooksi kings small and I have held some back a year. Guess what the larger ones I held back are not doing so well. None of them cycled (or maybe they did the first year when they should have been bred) and the second year breeders bred again. I am talking about a group of about 6 females that did not and two females that did from the previous year.

I also had this happen with some large Florida kings I held back It was the Sulfur brooks line that I thought I would hold back another year because I liked them so much (duhhh). I did and they are HUGE. They also did not breed. Not a single one of them. A lot of people can attest to this becauase they wanted them from me and I did not produce.

Now I am not saying I grew them to big and they did not breed . I obviously did something else wrong and messed up their cycle.. But you can see how we can make assumptions based on our preconceved ideas of what the snakes SHOULD be doing.

DISCERN Sep 20, 2006 07:04 PM

Rainer,

I do see completely what you are saying and this was a very good post! And also, just like your example, just because you did hold those bigger kings back did not guarantee great results. I would agree that your example is a good example of just because they were big like I would suggest, that doesn't always guarantee great breeding results. I just happen to think differently about the length issue with this. Like you said as well, there could have been many other factors.

Here's the thing though. Since the ones that didn't produce for you recently are bigger, when they do produce, you should have a) more eggs since they are larger than an 18 inch snake b) potentially bigger eggs and c) bigger body girth and the chance of going eggbound is less. Because of this, this works out better for both you and the snake. You have more babies to sell, and the snake's pregnancy was much easier.

My cal kings I bred were at least 4 feet and I had great results and never any trouble. Compared to Brooks, yeah, are smaller. Brooks are huge! Your Brooks are very pretty BTW.

Billy
Image
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Genesis 1:1

Pastorpat Sep 20, 2006 05:04 PM

Billy,
The trouble with doing this at work is having to stop before putting in everything I mean to say. As long as I've known Frank there have been areas of disagreement between us. Frank was and still is, I assume, willing to put kings together at 18 ". I'm not comfortable doing it. I'd rather wait. The issue for me in this thread is not the right or wrong of when to introduce breeders to each other. The issue is whether it happens a lot or not, whether it can happen and whose decision is it to breed. We all do what we know and what we feel comfortable with, but often are surprised when we discover control is not as much as we allow ourselves to take credit for. We forget our job is providing the right conditions for our charges to use to do the things they are programmed to do.

Now as to the Northerns--bring 'em on and hopefully some of these King keepers will find there is more to life than just Lampropeltis!!!!!!!LOL

Pat

Kerby... Sep 20, 2006 08:05 PM

I bred my 1.1 '04s het for albino splendidas this year at 18-19 months and produced 6 babies, 2 were albinos.

I also bred my 1.2 '04s hypos with 2 nice clutches.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Kerby... Sep 20, 2006 07:59 PM

**As far as breeding the 18” or whatever- I am sure that it does lead to smaller clutches and all the negative things we all hear about.**

I find that to be totally not true based on actually doing it, not from repetitive hearsey.

**But it is possible, and it is primarily done in the hope that the breeding produces the thing you are looking for as quickly as possible.**

It does no harm, so why not??

**As in hets you are raising up to get the homo whatever. The goal is to get that coveted hatchling at all cost (to the momma)**....

There is no "cost" to it. Healthy babies all the way.

**The accepted norm for captive husbandry is to wait two or three years, no matter the size.**

Based on what information and according to who???

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Upscale Sep 20, 2006 10:32 PM

**As far as breeding the 18” or whatever- I am sure that it does lead to smaller clutches and all the negative things we all hear about.**

I find that to be totally not true based on actually doing it, not from repetitive hearsey.

That pleases me. I was also referring to the repetitive hearsey Or at least the repetitive hearsey that it “leads to” those things. Again, I am glad that you find those things to be totally untrue. I should not have used the valley girl speak “I am sure...” I was speaking in general about small females, that’s why “the 18” or whatever”. I admit I was repeating those things as “sure” and that is wrong.

**But it is possible, and it is primarily done in the hope that the breeding produces the thing you are looking for as quickly as possible.**

It does no harm, so why not??

Again, I agree completely that if there is no harm why not. I actually go a little further than that, that I am willing to make the sacrifice even if there is some harm sometimes for the reason I mentioned.

**As in hets you are raising up to get the homo whatever. The goal is to get that coveted hatchling at all cost (to the momma)**....

There is no "cost" to it. Healthy babies all the way.

I am very pleased to hear there is no harm in your experience. That is great and helps refute those repeated things mentioned above.

**The accepted norm for captive husbandry is to wait two or three years, no matter the size.**

Based on what information and according to who???

I think the two or three year thing is pretty standard in every book out there. Again, a common and often repeated thing. We now know we can get breeders in eighteen months. Some people still say to wait at least two years, just read a few posts. I guess we would agree with the next line I wrote “There is no real reason to absolutely have to wait that long, and in a couple of years that may no longer be considered the norm any more.”

I appreciate your response- you will get no argument from me. I think I agree with all your disagreements.

Upscale Sep 19, 2006 10:50 PM

I would only kick the nasties if I intended it to be a typical “pet” snake. If you have a breeding plan, and that nasty one is penciled in, you might have to wait to give it the heave-ho to some poor unsuspecting kid (that’s always a nasty thing to do!) I keep mine on the hot side, (86 degrees) no a.c.- they stay “up” and ready to eat and haul butt all the time. I have them lunge at me all the time when I flip the lid on the sweater box. Sometimes it seems just instinct and feeding response, they withdraw right back in and kinda know the drill- the mouse will be right there in a second bud. Sometimes I have to be ready to grab them before they bolt right out. I can usually grab them from below as they’re sticking there neck out and basically (sounds rough, but they are tough) throw em back in and slam the lid real quick. I worry about it getting out more than biting me. A lot of them will not actually bite you if you have the guts to take the chance- it is something of a bluff. I think as soon as their eyes adjust and they can take in what is happening, they really don’t have any interest in biting you. And sometimes it is my fault for being in a hurry and not being gentle through the process. Then again there are some you just can’t settle down when it’s hot.- it’s GO TIME!!! Beware the lethargic ones if it’s hot - something might be wrong.
P.S.- I always wear disposable gloves so I can grab nasty stuff without being squeamish and to keep germs off me (mouse and snake) for the most part. I have had a snake bite the glove and have it flap apart like a balloon popping and scare the crap out of the snake. That’s always funny.

justinian2120 Sep 19, 2006 11:21 PM

ok trying to feed small mice to an 18" kingsnake is nuts,hopefully that was an exaggeration in the above response....but yeah that sounds like a hungry snake,not a 'bad pet'.....kings,in my experience,won't eat more than they can digest properly(as opposed to regurgitating)...so i would say he'll calm down,just feed it more....make sure it's got proper thermal gradient in it's enclosure(warm side and a cool side),and yeah increase the meal size,be it more per feeding,or better yet,slightly larger fuzzies....if a king's not hungry,they won't eat,or at least won't immediately jump all over your offering-that's when you know they're satiated.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

vincenta120779 Sep 20, 2006 03:50 AM

i was feeding 2 fuzzies at 18 in. then i moved up 2 large mice a month later ! good luck

FunkyRes Sep 20, 2006 04:54 AM

2 fuzzies at 18 inches, and in a month it was eating 2 large mice?
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Fleck Sep 20, 2006 05:16 AM

Posted by: captotterboy at Tue Sep 19 18:23:50 2006 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Ok, i thought it was the mistakes i was making, but today my kingsnake bit down on my finger hard and was trying to coil around it. I washed my hands before touching her, so there could not have been anything on my hands. It has been three days since i fed her two pinkie mice, so she could not have been all that hungry... am i doing something wrong? im not worried now, im just potentially worried when she gets large enough to hurt and i want to break myself and her of any bad habits. SHould i feed her more? She is 18 inches and is eating 2 pinkie mice every three days. Im going to switch up to one fuzzie next week. All frozen.

Jeff

ps. in order to get her off i had to dunk her in water. Any other methods i should be using?

Like everyone else has said its time to move up in mice size. I just wanted to add that you might be better off buying from the on line places that sell fuzzies-hoppers . Much cheaper in long run and they sell combos fuzzies-hoppers-mice .

antelope Sep 20, 2006 12:58 PM

Now THAT is some advice he can use! If it doesn't work out and you decide to kock it to the curb, let's see some recent pics and maybe we can remedy this situation! Here are some of mine that are tail rattlers but don't bite the hand that feeds!
Todd Hughes

Pastorpat Sep 20, 2006 03:17 PM

Todd,
Those are awesome kings!!!! I really like the abberant one in the third pic. Outstanding!!!!!

Pat

antelope Sep 21, 2006 04:06 AM

Thanks Pat! Wait'll you see the splendida pair I hope will fall in love and decide to go for it next year! Pics comin' soon as I can get a converter, new camera and old fool, lol!

captotterboy Sep 20, 2006 09:06 AM

THanks for the help everyone, i really appreciate it.

I have noticed that she never bites me the day after feeding day, so i think it is not an agressive responce, just a hunger responce. After reading everyones responces, i think i will feed her the last two pinkie mice tomorrow night (that will be two days) and than a fuzzie on saturday.

If this is not good, let me know and i will go out and get some fuzzies to feed her tonight or tomorrow night.

Again, thanks for the help.... its one of the reasons i love this site.

~Jeff

Mesozoic Sep 20, 2006 10:42 AM

>>Ok, i thought it was the mistakes i was making, but today my kingsnake bit down on my finger hard and was trying to coil around it. I washed my hands before touching her, so there could not have been anything on my hands. It has been three days since i fed her two pinkie mice, so she could not have been all that hungry... am i doing something wrong? im not worried now, im just potentially worried when she gets large enough to hurt and i want to break myself and her of any bad habits. SHould i feed her more? She is 18 inches and is eating 2 pinkie mice every three days. Im going to switch up to one fuzzie next week. All frozen.
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>ps. in order to get her off i had to dunk her in water. Any other methods i should be using?

You should be feeding your snake atleast fuzzies or even hoppers at 18 inches.2 pinkies is not enough food.
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

Nokturnel Tom Sep 20, 2006 04:09 PM

any day of the week. This usually [to me] is a sign it's most likely in good health.I'd feed it twice as much and see if it helps. Better a biter than a snake that just sits there......
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

BobS Sep 20, 2006 04:36 PM

Not me Tom. I'm getting older now and don't want the challenge anymore LOL. It's no fun to have folks visit, ask about the snakes in the cellar. Tell them how cool snkes can be on their way down the stairs. Open a cage , pull out a Well fed, beautiful healthy large Cal.King and after a few moments of answering fearful questions and begining to see the spark of how neat snakes can be in their eyes....then WHAM! "BOB why is your snake CHEWING on you!!!!?" Sort of ruins the whole PR thing as they recoil in horror and run back upstairs LOL.It's happened LOL. Even as purty as some of your snakes are, I vote for the mellow healthy campers.
Bob.

Nokturnel Tom Sep 20, 2006 04:51 PM

I understand the point you're making. However I have quite a few snakes.....probably 80 or so and only a few bite. They're great looking animals and I find it interesting to watch them act like wild animals instead of pets. I just choose not to handle them. I would not get them out of my collection just because they bite. I just handle the snakes that are OK with being handled and leave the aggressive ones alone and enjoy them as display animals. They're still pets to me, and definitely breeders, but they just make it clear they do not enjoy being handled. So I don't. There's only 70 others I can handle so I just play with one of those instead. If one of any given snakes in a pair does not bite I am happy. That means I have one to handle and one for producing babies. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

BobS Sep 20, 2006 08:18 PM

That's a good way of looking at it! You sure have a lot of good lookers, that's for sure.
Bob

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