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and I don't think I'll be getting him back like last week. I want to have a post mortem done but don't have the $175 so we may never know.

Thanks for all your support. I think one thing we ALL learned from this is that with this species being so new and for the most part wc it is more luck than anything else that they survive in captivity. Mine were cb and from one of the best breeders around - so who knows

lele

>>and I don't think I'll be getting him back like last week. I want to have a post mortem done but don't have the $175 so we may never know.
>>
>>Thanks for all your support. I think one thing we ALL learned from this is that with this species being so new and for the most part wc it is more luck than anything else that they survive in captivity. Mine were cb and from one of the best breeders around - so who knows
>>
>>lele

Yes, the chams I lost all dropped their tongue out of their mouths when close to death. I think it is loss of muscle control. I'm very sorry to hear about him. They are very precious and watching them shut down is terrible. I have been very fortunate and not lost many to distinct illness, but every time was different and no easier. Take care Lele.

Lele, I am so sorry to hear about Bart's demise. We all know how hard you tried to save him and we also know about the heartache you are going through. We've all been there at one time or another. *hugging you*

Marilyn

Lele,

So sad for you...
We have lost a few "little guys" over the years too. It never gets easy.

Fortunately, we haven't given up. We just ordered some new stock - to replenish our breeding colony of Brevs - and hopefully we will have lots more young'ns soon.

Don't toss out your habitat...
There may be replacements on the way.

By the way, we bought 2 females from KK about 3 years ago. On delivery, one arrived D.O.A. Ed told me that we were his first D.O.A and I felt bad. But the replacement lived for over 2 years and had 5 clutches of eggs. Her name was Lucy.

BTW... our original male lived 28 months and fathered several dozen offspring. A friend of ours has taken his brevs to the third generation... so it is not the species - just getting lucky with some sturdy ones. They are marvelous tiny creatures, too dear not to try again.

Morgana - Reptayls, Ltd.

I think what is most distressing is that they were perfectly healthy, active, social and fun when they arrived May 9th. It was mid-July when I first noticed changes in Makeda. So what this says to me is that it was something that I was doing wrong and unless I know what that is I just don't think I can put more at risk in good conscience, but thanks.

lele

Lele,

I agree - a close look at their environment is in order.

However, keep in mind that if all chameleons were to survive (and for long periods of time) - with no casualties - explained, or otherwise - there would be areas over-run with the critters.

In the wild, they are destined to be a link in the food chain - either when healthy or sickly. Mother Nature designed these creatures to fight for every day's survival. First, they have to dig out of the ground. Second, those who do make it, are food for waiting predators. Then the ones that avoid the endless snakes and birds who would make a meal out of them, have to find food - find a mate - and grow to start the next generation.

Their life is a tough one, and we are doing our best to give them paradise - a safe haven with regulated rain, endless food and optimum temperatures. If we succeed, they fill our days with joy as they live their "captive" lives.

Since it really isn't documented how long that life should be (in paradise), we can only keep trying.

One thing I recommend - fresh air - the air exchange makes a lot of difference. All of our vivariums have small screened windows in at least 3 sides, and on the top. This allows the plants and terrain to dry out in between mistings - and in their natural settings, I would consider that to be normal.

All of the breeders experiment to a certain degree with environments for each the cham species in our care. Once we reach a certain success level - we sometimes get a false sense of security. Even when most of the animals are responding favorably - reality presents you with an exception. They are not clones - they have their individual needs - and the tiny leaf chams can hide their distress very well until too late.

You tried very hard - heck, we all know that - but it just may have been some wierd tiny thing that was overlooked in the husbandry (although from all your descriptive posts - I can't think what it might be). Then again - it might not have been related to that at all. None of us are experts - no one can know for sure. Even with a necropsy, it could be something hard to pinpoint.

Take good care,
Morgana

I am truly sorry for your loss
You did everything possible for the little guys.
I would not throw away your setup yet. I am sure you will try again at some point.
First though I would get a few more years experience with an easier type of chameleon like a veiled. Believe me I have kept both kinds and the veileds are sooooo much easier than the R. Brevis I worried when you chose them as a first cham but thought I was being paranoid because of my previous experience with them.
I feel for you. I know how sad it is to lose a little friend.

Sonia

First, sorry for your lose's
Some thoughts;It is summer time,is any one using ant poisens or any other insectades? the small 'wild' ants and ff's,etc.,get a heavier dose this time of year, and brev's are so small?? These insects might be attracted to cages in search of food and be eaten.
Mosquito repellants, room deoder devices,any other stuff used seasonally,as the majority of the problems appear to coincide with summer.
There has to be a common thread somewhere,are the people with good results raising inside their homes or outside of house?

STNMAN--HD tech

Thanks. As for the pesticide issue I did not feed any wild caught feeders, we use no bio-cides on our property and I don't even use anything in the house (my cats are hunters of ALL - big and small) and I don't use chemicals of any sort so I do not think this was any cause.

These being Leaf Chameleon's they are in a tank not an open screened cage and I doubt too many keepers have theirs outdoors simply b/c the tank would heat up and kill them. They also prefer lower temps than the the big guys.

But thanks for your ideas!

lele

>>First, sorry for your lose's
>>Some thoughts;It is summer time,is any one using ant poisens or any other insectades? the small 'wild' ants and ff's,etc.,get a heavier dose this time of year, and brev's are so small?? These insects might be attracted to cages in search of food and be eaten.
>> Mosquito repellants, room deoder devices,any other stuff used seasonally,as the majority of the problems appear to coincide with summer.
>> There has to be a common thread somewhere,are the people with good results raising inside their homes or outside of house?
>>
>> STNMAN--HD tech

lele, im so sorry. this shouldnt of happened to such a good cham keeper.
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WHEN LIFE GIVES YOU LEMONS,
THROW THEM AT SOMEONE.

>DFL