Reptile & Amphibian Forums

...I really hate Ball Pythons and what they're doing to the hobby. I'm posting this here as a lament really. I hope I'll get some sympathy from you guys/gals. The NARBC show is coming in about a month to Tinley, near Chicago where I live. I've gone to the Tinley show the 5 or so years. The last three years you could have called it the Ball Python Breeders Expo. By far the animal with the greatest numbers represented at the show were Ball Pythons followed by Crested Geckos, and Retics. I was/am still hoping to find something cool in the colubrid way [hopefully native U.S. stuff] but frankly I'm already feeling like I'm going to be sorely disappointed, yet again. Now, to clarify, I own 4 NORMAL Ball Pythons of which I have no intention of breeding. Years ago I used to keep mostly native stuff that I would catch myself. Occasionally I would purchase some exotic at a pet store, but this was way WAY before Petco and PetSmart and being able to go into a shop and buy a snake. You were lucky if someone sold House Geckos or Brown Anoles in a pet shop. Fast forward to about 10 years ago when I got into the more exotic side of the hobby and started buying more exotics, both at shops [now far more common] and at swaps and shows. Now fast forward to today. I've re-homed the bulk of my exotics in order to focus solely on native U.S. species - snakes being my primary interest. I remember the first couple years of the Tinley NARBC when you could find all manner of exotic and native species of herps. It was a cool show. Sellers had not only hatchlings but a lot of guys sold adult breeder-age animals as well. Now, it's nothing but a Ball Python show. You really, REALLY have to look long and hard to find anyone actually selling something that isn't a Ball Python. Honestly, I can't wait until the whole Ball Python craze goes bust, but I know it'll end up being some other band wagon that every get-rich-quick idiot will want to hop on. If you can breed something and make some money at it, great. I just find it very dismaying that it seems like making a buck is what's driving the hobby these days without anyone just keeping and breeding snakes because they're fascinated by them. At least this forum still feels like a little refuge where I can get away from talk about 'investment' animals. Sheesh, does anyone else thing something has gone horribly wrong when we start talking about herps as 'investments.' Man, now I feel sick to my stomach.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

I invest considerable amounts of time, energy, and emotion into my herps, but none of them are anywhere close to 'investment' quality animals. In fact, most of mine are rescues! But I prefer it that way. I love looking at pictures of the extravagant color and pattern morphs that come from selective breeding, but I don't think I could stomach paying more than a few hundred upfront for ANY specimen, let alone 4 and 5 figure sums...

There are an appalling number of reptiles out there that are forgotten and neglected because they are 'normal' looking... take boa constrictors, for instance. People will sell off whole litters of 'normal' bci's for less than $50 a pop, knowing full well that the animals will most likely be sold at pet stores to the first kid that walks in the door with money. Cornsnakes, ball pythons, leopard geckos, ball pythons, iguanas, beardies and water dragons often suffer similar fates...

But I also respect the breeders who meticulously think out the genetics involved in pairing such-and-such morph with such-and-such other morph. It takes a tremendous amount of patience and wisdom to work for GENERATIONS to bring about new morphs, and there's nothing wrong with people who dedicate themselves to that facet of the hobby.

It just ain't for me...

BUT I do not really agree with this statement....

There are an appalling number of reptiles out there that are forgotten and neglected because they are 'normal' looking... take boa constrictors, for instance. People will sell off whole litters of 'normal' bci's for less than $50 a pop, knowing full well that the animals will most likely be sold at pet stores to the first kid that walks in the door with money. Cornsnakes, ball pythons, leopard geckos, ball pythons, iguanas, beardies and water dragons often suffer similar fates...

Think about it....you rescue animals but when you were a small boy or girl, getting a hundred bucks was not easy...those normals that the morph breeders may not want may find themselves in the pet shops or trade shows really cheap...but this gives the young people starting out in this hobby a chance to get some very nice captive bred reptiles!! Alot of them are possible hets as well which gives even more incentive for beginers in the market...

I think it is all perspective....

You may rescue animals and keep them in better situations...and that is what makes you happy....I respect that...

New young people buy cheaper good reptiles for starting out!

The morph breeders supply these cheaper high quality animals...

Looks like everyone is happy!

Andy Federico
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I think what the other poster was getting to was that many of those cheaper herps are considered 'throw-away' which is why you see the same animals in rescues everywhere. Also, I think it's a bad idea for breeders to dump normal animals on wholesalers to sell to pet stores. While some people might consider getting a possible het as a bonus that can only serve to pollute the captive gene pool. I personally would be rather angry to have bred a normal kingsnake or ratsnake only to later find out after breeding the offspring to find that I was perpetuating some morph. I sent emails to several breeders coming to the NARBC this year to see if they had any adult surplus breeders. A couple had normal looking corns that were het for something. I was assured that breeding them to other normals would only give me normals, however some of them would be het for recessive traits as well. I don't want to breed for recessive traits nor do I want to unwittingly perpetuate them. Anyway, this is still getting away from the point of my original post which was that too many people have jumped on the BP bandwagon thereby severely limiting the diversity of herps available at many of the shows.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

I don't think there's anything wrong with starting out on 'cheaper' animals, that's what I did too. My first leopard gecko was a little runty natural colored girl, and my first snakes were garters and cheap corns. So I don't have a problem at all with inexpensive reptiles.

I *do* have problems with people who buy these animals when they're little babies, and decide they don't want them because they got bigger and weren't 'cute' any more, or parents who buy their kids these animals to placate them, and in a few months when the kid has lost interest, either surrender them to me or just let them die because they weren't that expensive...

And on BP's, I get kinda tired of hearing about them... I think they're boring, personally, but I know TONS of people who love them...

I agree 110% with you.

I had not gone to a herp expo in 4 years. I was blown away when I stepped foot inside the East Texas Herp Show Expo...Ball Pythons galore.

Only a handful of people selling ratsnakes, and they basically had nothing.

I went looking for a Trans Pecos and saw only one in the entire show, and it was a display animal.

It has really gotten out of hand with the Pythons. I almost felt like asking for my money back as I left the show.

>>It has really gotten out of hand with the Pythons. I almost felt like asking for my money back as I left the show.

It's interesting to hear that it's occuring at other shows as well. I actually have never been to any other herp sale/show other than the Tinley show. However, the Tinley show being part of the NARBC show has the same breeders as are at the other locations at Anaheim, and Dallas/Fort Worth. I think a friend of mine had mentioned in the past when we were discussing this that he went to an East Coast show recently that was the same way. Nothing but BPs. I just can't stop shaking my head and thinking of how disappointing the show has been the last three years.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

From what I have heard, it is basically the same at every show.

The East Tex one had TONS of python and boa hybrids...a few cornsnake booths. One or 2 small rat snake booth that had only Euro rats, one booth of sand boas, several turtle and lizard booths, and more python booths.

I could not believe it. I could always count on seeing Subocs and other North american ratsnakes by the bucket fulls. Hell, I hardly saw any Kingsnakes as well.

I was pleasantly suprised at the recent cleveland reptile show. There were only a few ball morph breeders, I only saw 2 albinos at the whole show

I saw more colubrids than pythons in general, most of these were honduran milks though. I didn't see any everglades rats, that I was looking for. It seems like many Ohioans seem to be staying away from all U.S. ratsnakes, due to regulations on black rats.

I went to Anaheim last year and while there was alot of Ball Python morphs there was also lots of kings, milks (especially Honduran morphs though) and corns. There was a pretty good variety of pituophis as well. There did not seem to be alot of rats but I recall there were a few subocs and a few Mandarins.
There was also a pretty good selection of Rosy Boas as well and I believe Gus Renfro was even there with some locality Boa Constrictors. I saw Jungle Carpets too. Overall I thought it was a very good show.
I also see what you mean about Ball Pythons dominating the market but that will fade with time and lots of those people are going to continue to have an intrest in herps and flow into other areas of the hobby.

I go to the Ohio show most months (allegedly to buy frozen rodents), and while there ARE balls there, I feel that it is full of variety. And, best of all, plenty of North American Ratsnakes! Maybe part of it is that I just sort of glaze over & keep walking when I see the balls, but I am usually quite pleased to find many "tempting" N. American snakes in general. Sometimes (like last weekend) I just can't help but leave there with a little more than just ratcicles. Duffy

I agree 100 percent with you Matt. I have nothing against Ball Pythons. I think the normal Ball Python is an awesome looking snake. Might even get one in the future. Funny thing is, you can't even read two lines on the ball python forum without something like "here's my BP het for this" or "Is this a yellow bellie?" A Captive Bred & Born Normal ball is becoming an endangered animal. I don't want a bucket full of 10.00 WC Balls from Africa. Find me a CBB normal.
Anyone that knows me understands that much of what I keep in my collection wouldn't get a second look at many a herp show. Emoryi Rats, Eastern kings, prairie kings, garter snakes, LOL. But I don't care, I keep and breed what I love. Cornsnakes have tons of morphs, but it seems to me that corn snake fans still have a love and appriciation for normals much more so then many of the Ball Python people, IMO.
At some of the shows I've been to in Va. and NC. I've seen plenty of Ball Pythons, but there's been enough colubrids to keep me happy. Very good post.
Steve

I live 2 hours away from Tinley and wont go.I like the smaller shows.Streamwood isnt bad and has lots to offer.A few ball python guys in my area call it a junk show.LOL.By God I love my $20 to $100 dollar junk snakes.I just wish I had more space for more racks.

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If lead paint is so deadly why do they make it so delicious?

Last year I was going to go to the Philadelphia show until I heard that it was all ball pythons. I don't have anything against ball pythons as a species, but I find the morphs irritating. Every ball python that is half a shade lighter or darker than normal becomes a freaking morph. Pastel? Please. Even some of the expensive morphs look like normals to me. And the names are retarded. "I got a super wasp spider clown-flame yellow belly sapsucker." The bp forum is one of only two boards on this site I don't read anymore.

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2.0 Pantherophis obsoletus obsoletus
0.2 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus

n/p

Have you ever seen a pastel in person, or have you seen the super pastels, especially in person?
There is a single incomplete-dominance gene at work there. Now, saying it doesn't appeal to you is one thing, but saying it doesn't exist is quite another. You can just say you don't care, you don't have to insult an entire group of individuals to get your point across, do you?
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Jeremy J. Anderson
Gem State Reptiles
HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY! HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY! HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY! HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY! HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!

i got my 2 normals and that's all i need.........

Check out Kathy Love (of course) and Cedar Creek Corns (they'll be next to Kathy's table) for some nice corns and a few rat snakes (Connie may still have some Bairds rats for sale). Ken at Alex Hues table will probably have a few nice corns and amel Nelsons Milks for sale also.

There were sure ALOT of boa's and ball pythons last year, but there were a few folks with some nice (i.e affordable lol) colubrids, you just had to push your way thru the crowd to find them. There was also a guy walking around showing off a beautiful slate blue, dog tame 5' racer; definately (for me) a highlight of the show. It was real pretty and totally mellow. Not quite what you'd expect from a racer.

High dollar balls and boa's command much more attention then a $30 Okeetee, but there will be a resurgance in the popularity of colubrids and availability of corns, rats, kings, milks etc at shows. Everything comes full circle, and their time is due. With more and more casual enthusiasts getting into breeding and the ever increasing popularity of " 'Net Herping", it can only bode well for all us "little snake" guys and girls

>>Check out Kathy Love (of course) and Cedar Creek Corns (they'll be next to Kathy's table) for some nice corns and a few rat snakes (Connie may still have some Bairds rats for sale). Ken at Alex Hues table will probably have a few nice corns and amel Nelsons Milks for sale also.

I actually emailed Kathy Love and CCCorns to see if either of them would have surplus breeder males. However, I was looking for a normal male - something a breeder might have used to outcross or perhaps maybe something simple like an Okeetee or Miami Phase. Unfortunately neither one of them had and snakes that weren't already het for multiple recessive traits. Not what I was looking for.

>>High dollar balls and boa's command much more attention then a $30 Okeetee, but there will be a resurgance in the popularity of colubrids and availability of corns, rats, kings, milks etc at shows. Everything comes full circle, and their time is due. With more and more casual enthusiasts getting into breeding and the ever increasing popularity of " 'Net Herping", it can only bode well for all us "little snake" guys and girls

I really hope this is the case. Unfortunately it sounds like a lot of first time breeders are focusing on BPs because they think they can make big bucks there. This is probably at the heart of the problem with how the BP craze is dominating a lot of shows. Too many people think they can make big bucks breeding BPs. Talk to anyone like Kevin from NERD or someone like Dan Sutherland and I'm sure they'll tell you it was feast or famine when they first started breeding snakes. Too many newbies don't realize that and are jumping into BP breeding like it's a pyramid scheme. It almost is if you think about it. They buy something very expensive, breed it, make a little money back which they then spend on a more expensive morph, and so on. There's always someone else coming by to buy someone elses project that they're done with. So, it ends up being only breeders selling to breeders. Everyone thinks they can make a killing and so that's what attracts everyone, vs. breeding cheaper animals with a much lower selling price - ie. common colubrids. However, my round-about point is that I've discussed this ad nauseum with other keepers/breeders and most of them agree that interest in various animals is cyclical. Many come back into popularity while others that may have been worth a lot more in the past - eg. Amel Corns - still command enough interest to be easy sellers that while they won't make you rich will at least pay you something for your efforts.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

I'll probably be there. I live in a remote area of Michigan and rarely go to a reptile show. I just keep what I'm interested in and don't like the business part of the hobby. Been keeping mostly Eurasian snakes for years, but am now getting back into American rats and kings. So, I'll probably have the following to sell at Tinley: calico beauties, Mandarins, South Korean dione, leopard rat, and hypo Cal kings, to name a few. Hope to see some folks from this board there...

Terry
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Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

I like BP's and own a half dozen of them myself. But my first love will always be the north american rats. I started with wild caught garters but quickly moved to black rats after I caught my first one. That first rat taught me more about the importance of escape proof cages more than any snake since. Every morning when I woke up the first thing I had to do was find Phantom.

In my opinion alot of new keepers miss out. The first snake of new keepers tend to be one they bought. This means that they are less likely to start with ratsnakes, garters, or whatever you western folks start with. People may think they aren't as "cool" because they can be found locally.

Hey I say let them miss out, ratsnake keepers still have more of a brotherhood going on. When you see a booth with captive born north american colubrids you know you've found someone you can trust. Or at least you know that money isn't their driving force.

>>I like BP's and own a half dozen of them myself. But my first love will always be the north american rats.

I to have several BPs. I have 2.2, one of which is currently the one snake I've owned longer than any other in my collection. However, there was a brief period of a few years where I didn't keep any herps. That's not to say I wasn't still interested, but I had just gotten out of keeping them. That is until I caught a monster 7' Black Rat when I lived in GA. It was just laying coiled at the side of a secluded road I took when I was going to class [college for second degree in zoology]. That Black Rat did more than anything to re-spark my interest in keeping herps. It's funny but the first snake I caught [age 10] was a Garter while the last few years I've kept mostly exotics and here I am - come full circle - back to the natives.

>>Hey I say let them miss out, ratsnake keepers still have more of a brotherhood going on. When you see a booth with captive born north american colubrids you know you've found someone you can trust. Or at least you know that money isn't their driving force.

Interesting point. Ratsnake keepers tend to be people in my experience who will go out and actually go herping whereas I know plenty of exotic snake/other herp keepers who NEVER go out and flip tin or look under rocks, logs, etc. I do think rat keepers and particularly people interested in native species tend to have a lot more common ground than many of the keepers of exotics. Just a thought with many exceptions I'm sure. Still, I agree with you about money and natives as well. Most native snakes and a lot of exotic rats are cheap enough that there isn't this over-riding greed drive to make bucket loads of money, simply because it's REALLY tough to make money selling Corns, Eastern Kings, Milks, etc.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

hmm.. if it's any indication of things to come, the Mid-Atlantic Reptile Show show (a semi-big show in Maryland) was actually very light on the usual gamut of ball pythons, leopard geckos and beardies that seemed to overshadow everything else at the show over the last 12 years. It was wonderful to see a pretty diversified selection to pick from (though it was short on turtles/tortoises).
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PHWyvern

The Northern Black racer, i feel your pain , but i do keep retics almost all phases, my first python was a retic at age 11 in the 80's, i was an odd sort and worked in a pet store and i had hime 14 years before he was killed in a breeding trail in 1995, but sired 67 babies which of still I have some today, but I also like the non money makers, i caught my first snake at age 5 and have been hooked ever since, but to be honest if i can breed them and make even enough money to pay for their food then no woman in my life can complain about my hobby, I neeed to find a snake girl lol. hence I am not in it for the money, but the money is an added bonus
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Frank Roberts
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John Rodriguez and Frank Roberts or vise versa

I got my boyfriend into snakes, he'd never kept anything but rats and dogs before me, and we've got 9 snakes and 5 geckos!

you feel like dumpin him lol just kidding
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Frank Roberts
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John Rodriguez and Frank Roberts or vise versa

FLAME ON! - ~just kidding.
Even Corn snakes are an investment. People are doing this, not the ball pythons, there's no reason to "hate ball pythons", You have to admit the explosion of visual mutations in this species over the last decade, in fact throughout all species in the hobby/business of herpetoculture, is remarkable.
It is invevitable that one species has to be the MOST valuable, and it happens to be ball pythons. If it were something else, you'd be upset about the, umm, Snow Blackhead Pythons or whatever. I think what you're saying is you love the hobby, and you dislike the business end of herp-keeping. That's a valid point. Or perhaps you dislike the unchecked capitalism of our truly free market?
I'm not talking about the kind of "Free Market" like the WTO and the World Bank, and the IMF like to set up, I mean a REAL free market, kingsnake.com (as well as others, of course) and ebay.com beng some of the best.
Currently you can find people offering Mojave Mall pythons for $1000 - $3000 depending where you look. This is a volatile morph that has recently crashed, hugely, becasue of the Black Eyed Leucistics, and the profusion o' possible combinations that can produce the "Blue Eyed Lucy" most of which are less pigmented than the Mojave x Mojave type.
The market will naturally adjust to that.
The market will also swing, inevitably towards the opinion of people who feel the way you do, there are plenty of people who love wild-type snakes and want nothing to do with the morphs, I meet them all of the time.
This isn't a market corrupted by a massive hidden price fixing cartel, like OPEC is to the Petroleum industry. Thsi market has its overlords, who may wield more influence than others, but all in all, I have found it to be community based. Small-time breeders support other small-time breeders, and there is no price-control mafia actively stopping you from producing a bunch of albino balls for $150 each. No one could stop you if oyu wnated to do that, though they might not be happy with you.
This is a REAL free market, how awesome. Markets with unlimited demand, such as healthcare, should ALWAYS be regulated. This is a luxury market, and will self-regulate.

Your hobby is yours, enjoy what you enjoy about it, the ball pythons won't take it away. And don't worry, the shows will become more diverse, as the pednulum swings the other way in the next couple of years.
Seems like breeders I see at shows always sell out of any Hognoses they have, and sometimes Rosy Boas are the hot ticket, but the Ball python guys wait all day for a single sale, which is great if they get one, they might pay for their eyarly operating costs right there, but if no one's buyng $5000 snakes, then what are they really worth.

I see your point, though. Maybe you could start an organization that advocates wild-type animals exclusively, or something...
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Jeremy J. Anderson
Gem State Reptiles
HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY! HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY! HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY! HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY! HAPPY! HAPPY! JOY! JOY!