Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Im not saying I dont believe it I just like a few others feel its more a fluke than the norm. Just for scale here is a 19" Kingsnake in my hand...I wonder how big the eggs would be and the subsequent hatchlings...

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I love the orange flares on the side.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Me too Keith. I love those orange flairs on the side.

Please keep us posted with pics every two months.

As per your request I will like clockwork post pics every 2 months...maybe more ???

Where are the pics of the 18" breeder females next to rulers ?

What kinda of clutches did they have ?

What was the hatch ratio ?

What kinda Kings were they ?

Like I said I dont doubt that its happened I just think its an anomoly rather than the norm.
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Like I said I dont doubt that its happened I just think its an anomoly rather than the norm.

Its the norm around here. Not the rule. I have had small snakes breed and big snakes not. When you have a large collection you learn to roll with the punches. But its more common than you are saying because I have neen doing it for years and the snakes don't care.

So you are saying big snakes arent as good as breeders as small snakes of the same subspecies ? I dont totally disagree as Ive seen and had some females that were really big and fat and they had terrible fertility. The GA female I have now is 5' long and is of average weight and she laid a clutch of 13 eggs and then another clutch of 13 eggs. If she was obese I wonder if she would be as prolific.
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Very pretty king there Keith!

And also, seeing that and thinking that someone would actually think about breeding a female that size is mind blowing.
We call it the Jon Benet syndrome, as the poor snakes aren't allowed to have a childhood but having to act like an adult before they should. Just my opinion.

Thanks for the pic!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Discern,

Have you bred mice? Do you feel the same way about the Jon Benet syndrom with them as well?

I hate to use mice as an example but its hard getting it into your thick heads any other way.

No, but I have plenty of friends that do, and sorry..the mouse example is poor and proves nothing. Whole different thing there.

Thick heads we don't have, just patience with our animals and their growth.

Billy

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Genesis 1:1

WOW Nice Splendida ! Ive been fighting the itch to pick up a pair of those and you aint helping things !

Keith
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Yeah it wouldn't even come to mind to breed an 18incher. I didn't even know the eggs would be fertile coming from such a small snake. Oh well, to each your own right. Sam.

Read the below posts. That has already been covered. Keith just brought the topic back to the top from the below posts to create his own thread.

Sorry, wasn't using my thickhead.

Your under the false impression, YOU breed snakes, I hope you do not. I think its against the law, much like That kid comparison you used. Do you breed the snakes(your sick if you do) or do you let them breed eachother. I am truely hoping its the latter.

You allow them to breed eachother is my hope. Now, if you think about it. In nature, nature allows them to breed eachother. The question is, if a young female snake in nature cycles, again I hope you understand, the female must cycle(develop gametes) in order to produce eggs, WHO stops a male, any male from breeding it??????? You? Keith? who? I have to ask, whos in charge of enforcing HUMAN social rules on wild snakes??????????

The answer is, NO ONE. If a female cycles she will admit pheromones and those pheromones will attact and induce a male to copulate her. That is their design. THERE IS NO ONE TO STOP THEM. THAT IS WHAT THEY DO. THEY ARE NOT HUMANS. Sorry for yelling but man does this smack in the face of sanity.

So the question is, do females naturally cycle at various sizes. The answer is yes. End of that chapter.

The next chapter is, does you husbandry allow and support young small snakes to achieve their design. The answer is, NO. as in, you are the problem, not them. Cheers

I do see what you are saying, in allowing for nature to take its' course. I do not have a problem with that. What you have to realize is that it does not always work out even how " nature " did it. In other words, yes, a smaller snake may be able to copulate and have eggs. Now, if she does not make it due to the eggs being too big, then what? I have seen it happen.

So, if then the difference was simply to prevent that by waiting a little longer for the snake to be more mature and larger for the eggs, then it would have been better for the health of the snake and potential danger it would have been in. See how good waiting can be?

The " nature " theory holds no water in this aspect: If you say that if they do mate, then it is ok no matter what size the snake is, then what about pre teen girls reaching puberty and going through the beginning stages of womanhood. Yes, they can engage in sexual acts but would that be good for them at that time? It doesn't take a genius to figure that out..as the answer would be no. Are we supposed to let anything breed or mate cause the " will " is there? C'mon, get serious.

Sorry, but this supposed " scientific " reasoning still does not justify. We will just have to agree to disagree!!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

I guess your still missing the point. Its a swing and a miss. Being is its baseball season.

Its not really scientific. Its common biology. As with mice, a healthy mouse reproduces just fine, when young and small. Now consider, a young producing mouse is less than half the size of an adult mouse. 35 to 40 grams to 70 to 80 grams.

Now consider, I could easily cause the small females to fail while the larger females continue to do well. All I have to do is lower the temperature until the smaller individuals do not have the mass of energy to maintain heat, then they will fail first during reproduction, then simply fail if temps keep dropping.

With reptiles its the same, smaller individuals may not have the strenght to put up with poor husbandry. Larger individuals do. Consider in nature they can pick what they need. It only means, your husbandry is marginal.

So instead of adjusting your husbandry to accomadate all sized females, you think you must control them to fit your husbandry. I think thats a terrible approach. Of cousre your welcome to it. But I think its my and others responsibility to show that there are indeed methods to allow a more successfull approach.

In most cases, captive snake nesting really really really sucks. So of course it will impact the smaller individuals first. And the old, I would imagine. Poor nesting causes the females to retain the eggs longer, which causes serious dehydration, which causes egg binding, which causes reproductive and total failure.

About your comment on "nature taking its course". Your task in captivity, if you choose, is to support natures course, not tell nature what to do or what it is.

Which leads to this. Snakes have no problem reproducing when small and young. Many captives do have problems, not because the snakes are not designed to do this, but instead because their captive husbandry is marginal and does not support this aspect of their reproductive biology.

The real point is the old, horse and the cart, or the chicken and the egg. Which comes first or which is leading. The reality is, the snakes are suppose to lead you, that is, they are suppose to teach you what they are. Not you telling the snake what it is. In otherwords, if your husbandry does not support what they do, then change it. Not tell the snake to fit your conditions. In simple terms, when they cycle, they are intended to breed and produce eggs, that is their life task. The REPRODUCTIVE biology of snakes is many faced, to included success under many conditions. Try to understand that.

To understand it better, many of you think success is all or nothing, sirs and sirsettes, that is being very naive. Man, just think if a chicken rancher only hatched one chicken, he is indeed successful, hahahahahahaha his banker would not say so. Or a corn farmer in Iowa only produces one cob of corn, hahahahahahahahahaha. Yep, he too is successful. The reality is, there is a huge range of success, from a minimun, a few hatchlings, to a maximum. Of course theres nothing wrong with the middle. That does not eliminate the extremes. And snakes if properly supported have no problem producing when small. If your having problems, look to YOURSELF. Cheers

"I guess your still missing the point. Its a swing and a miss. Being is its baseball season. "

No, not really, but I just don't agree to loosely scientifically based justification on breeding snakes that are 18 inches.

While I still do see exactly what you are saying, although you may not see that, your post is very much weighed heavily on presuming most people's ways of nesting, or actually helping their females nest, is wrong. You have no way of knowing how myself and others have done or do things when it comes to that subject. I would agree that a lot of problems today that people have with their snakes either egg binding, etc. could fall into that category. The thing is, you are also just assuming that small snakes WILL always be able to produce eggs if given the right accomindations. You have no way of knowing that, and I have seen through experience that it does not always work.

You are taking the fact that myself and others disagree on breeding an 18 inch kingsnake and somehow thinking that we are trying to control them to fit our husbandry. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

My question will be this: Why not just wait till the snake is older and bigger? It's just that simple. The answer is, that people do not want to wait, and then they candy coat their reasoning. Plain and simple.
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Genesis 1:1

another swing and a miss, why not let them do what they are designed to do???

ALso explain how your suppose to wait.

You have a real problem, you do not know what a cycled female is. If they do not cycle, it doesn't matter if they are bred or not, they will not lay eggs.

If they have cycled, they can occur more problems, not allowing them to carry what a normal sequence, then forcing them to absorb their ovum, by not breeding them.

Please research normal reproductive biology. Cheers

" ALso explain how your suppose to wait. "

Well, it is this simple:
Say you buy a 2004 baby. Don't think about breeding it at 18 months. Just wait. Feed the snake throughout 2004. Year 2005 goes by, and you feed the snake. Then here comes year 2006. All the while, feeding them pretty decent meals, but making sure they don't get fat. Then, by the end of 2006, feed the females heavily before you would put them in hibernation. See, by this time, they would be bigger than 18 inches. They may actually be either near 3 feet or bigger. Then you hibernate them as the year comes to a close.

2007. Here we go!!!! Snake is not 18 inches!!! And what could this produce? More eggs!! All right!!!!!!!

I actually don't have a problem with knowing anything about this subject. You don't know anything about me, and likewise.
It appears that you think you really know something and that others that disagree do not know a thing.

Not much else to say.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

"but making sure they don't get fat."

Not sure what you mean by getting a neonate snake fat? Are you talking about fat depsosits in large adults? I have never seen a snake of mine get fat from feeding it all it wants. I never withold food. The snakes burn up anything they have by BREEDING.

What I meant was by having the snake get obese.

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

nothing new to add, except your total misconception. These small females do not have a problem laying and will actually continue to grow and thrive and will often multiclutch and go on to be large adults. That is, with proper care.

why you strike out is, you think its bad or hard on them, its not, not with decent care.

But hey, the good part is, you still have lots of time to learn more and be so restricted by what you do not know. Keep your mind open and good things happen. Cheers

You are right..there is nothing new to add and your deliberate candy coating of trying to sound scientific is getting boring and unchallenging.

I have no idea how much you know or not know about this subject. If you do have a lot of knowledge, then good for you. You very well may have knowledge or experience in this area. Your presumptious tone speaks otherwise, or could lead readers to that conclusion. That is not even the issue here. The issue was breeding snakes at 18 inches. You should know that first of all, people are still not finding that easy to believe and are doubtful. Second, your view is still very much of the minority. The problem is that you are not being honest here about your intentions if you are breeding snakes at 18 inches. Just be honest and admit that you can not wait for snakes to fully mature. Your patience may be low, and that you are doing that cause YOU want to. That is all there is to it. Don't worry about trying to convince readers that this is " normal " and that those who disagree don't understand biology. Many readers I know have had a ball with this set of posts, have a good understanding of biology, and have been breeding snakes for a long, long time.

And to end this, we will just have to agree to disagree. You may have reasons you think this way, just as I have my reasons. That is all there is to it.

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Why do people insist on polluting the forum with derogatory posts like this one?

Posted by Billy:
"You should know that first of all, people are still not finding that easy to believe and are doubtful. Second, your view is still very much of the minority. The problem is that you are not being honest here about your intentions if you are breeding snakes at 18 inches. Just be honest and admit that you can not wait for snakes to fully mature. Your patience may be low, and that you are doing that cause YOU want to. That is all there is to it. Don't worry about trying to convince readers that this is " normal " and that those who disagree don't understand biology."

Oh wait, I know..because this forum is constantly POLLUTED with delusionial fanboy pie in the sky wishfull thinking with no basis in reality.

First of all, drugs are bad. LOL

Second, I never said one derogatory thing. It was a post asking someone to be honest and real. That is all.

And I guess you did not read all of it, since I stated I was not being judgemental of his experience or knowledge, yet he looks down on those that disagree with him. It is clear as day in his posts.

Time to end this my friend. The steak is well done. We will have to agree to disagree.

Take care!
Billy

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Genesis 1:1

No. What you did Billy was being very disrespectful. You called him a lier by saying he is misrepresenting things to suit his own personal agenda. Nothing could be further from the truth about FR. Shame on you.

Rainer, I have no clue if he is lying or not. Let me ask you this. What do you think that readers think when they read that there are some that breed kings at 18 inches? You think I am the only one here that questions all of this or how legit the claims are to begin with? You should start talking to your fellow herpers. You may learn something.

And AGAIN, he has been very disrectful towards each and everyone that disagrees with him because he treats them like they do not know anything.

You done? I am.

Take care!

Billy
BTW, your jelly brooks are very pretty.
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Genesis 1:1

The point of the discussion is that it does not matter if the snake is 2" or 20'. Its what the snakes want to do. Not what others think they should do.

I am done with this thread.

Ok, cool!! Let's just shake hands and agree to disagree.

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

But i have taken the time and trouble to allow you to entertain the possibility that your understanding of snakes can use some adjustment. Its not about believing or proving or any of that.

To partake in a discussion of this nature, is not about believing anyone, its merely about asking more appropriate questions. The real truth is most likely unknown.

The result of this conversation is, you ran out of questions and you did so very quickly. So you attack me. Don't worry, this is common. The truth is, I have been breeding cal kings since 1964, I was amoung the first to breed this species, and the first to successfully breed them thru multiple generations. That sentence means, I was the first to get it right.

From 1964 until now, I have run into all sorts of thick headed people(refuse to intertain thoughts) In the late seventies, I attended the very first IHS meetings, This fella from the National Zoo, Zwiefeil(sp) I believe, was giving a paper on a long term breeding project of cal kings. He stated without a doubt, that it takes Cal kings 5 to 7 years to reach sexual maturity. The shocking part was, I had just had my first cal king successfully reproduce at under a year.

As we all now understand, its commonplace to breed calkings in 18 months. But it wasn't understood then. If you were to travel back in time(were you alive then?) you would have been shocked how such an expert could be so backward to say, calkings could never ever, never ever, never ever, reproduce in 18 to 24 months, muchless under 12 months.

Please consider to truely understand any subject, you must identify and secure the proper source of information. Here you have totally failed. You are not listening to the people who have seen and done it, both Bluerosy and I. And sided with people who have not seen or done it. Consider, lack of information is not knowledge, but instead, lack of knowledge is ignorance. You would be wise to investigate Knowledge, the choosing to side with lack of knowledge is not wise.

Also there is only one kingsnake expert, and that is the kingsnakes themselves. If they do it, then the expert has spoken. You see, I learned to listen to people, but believe the expert, the snakes themselves. You see, I have seen both wild and captives do this, so whatever you or keith say is totally meaningless to me. WHY would I believe you over what the snakes have done.

I could careless what people say, the reason is, they seem to say just about anything. From the very right to the very wrong. The snakes only speak the truth. The problem is, sometimes it takes years or decades to understand the truth. The point is, you need to learn who is speaking the truth. Then investigate that, not believe it. Believing should come later after you have experienced it.

I would listen to those who have done it, not to those who have not. Consider, those that have not, have a million reasons to explain(hide) why they have not. Cheers and over and out.

Man, talk about making a mountain out of an anthill.....

" The result of this conversation is, you ran out of questions and you did so very quickly. So you attack me. Don't worry, this is common."

Ok, now here is a good one. How did I attack you?
What has been common is that you have been completely rude in your posts. You seem to think you really know something and try to show if off. Now, if you do, that is fine and great! If what you say is true about breeding snakes for all these years, good deal!!

But when your communication skills are lacking in the sense of standard maturity, then you may get called on it. In other words, we have listened to you. It is only fair you share the same respect. Whether or not we agree is a whole different story.

You have referred to those who disagree as " thick headed ". If you really think so, you have no idea how many thick heads there are out there. LOL!

" Please consider to truely understand any subject, you must identify and secure the proper source of information. Here you have totally failed. You are not listening to the people who have seen and done it, both Bluerosy and I. And sided with people who have not seen or done it. Consider, lack of information is not knowledge, but instead, lack of knowledge is ignorance. You would be wise to investigate Knowledge, the choosing to side with lack of knowledge is not wise."

I have failed? I am not listening to the people who have seen it and done it? What kind of juvenile comment is that? How could you know anything about what I have seen, heard, or done? Bro, I came to my conclusions by listening to the people who have done it, such as myself and others, who again, have bred for a long time. I have bred snakes both in the size I feel females should breed and the size you say may be ok, and the conclusion proved my point and supported my opinion even more. You have got to stop with the presumptous nonsense!!! Just as much as you have said to listen to those, it appears you mean to only listen to those that support your theory.

Bro, we have got to move on, as you have been nothing but arrogant and redundant. To summarize this whole thing:

A) I disagree with someone breeding a female kingsnake 18 inches long. I find that deplorable and disrespectful to the poor animal. The reason could be either selfishness or the competitive spirit of " having the newest thing " as fast as possible in this hobby, or who knows. This is just my opinion stated here, and a whole slew of others share this as well.

B) You disagreed

C) The end result? We will have to shake hands and agree to disagree.

Take care!!
Billy

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Genesis 1:1

Billy, you said..
A) I disagree with someone breeding a female kingsnake 18 inches long. I find that deplorable and disrespectful to the poor animal. The reason could be either selfishness or the competitive spirit of " having the newest thing " as fast as possible in this hobby, or who knows. This is just my opinion stated here, and a whole slew of others share this as well.

What I am getting from Franks posts is that if a female cycles regardless of age or size she is probably if not definitely ready to produce eggs. Humans can not MAKE snakes cycle, they do it on their own.
With the countless pics and posts showing overturned nest boxes and cages turned inside out it is not so awful to assume some people may be better at this [getting snakes to breed] than others. I don't know how long you have been coming to the King forum but redunant is right.....when talking about basically everything on here but hey..it is snake talk and there's pics so we come back for more. It is very frustrating at times to try and make a point and to have to write it over and over and longer and longer. Then you're asked for proof, you supply the proof. People still don't want to believe so they don't. This is why I mostly just post pics now. The bottom line is Frank has been breeding reptiles longer than you have been alive. This to me is reason enough to at least think about what he says.
Furthermore I think you are concerned newbies will be trying to breed small snakes and that bad things will come of it. I have put snakes together and seen them not even flinch never mind breed. If a snake is too small[in its own instinctive brain] then it will probably not breed. You know I do things different. It works for me,...I don't listen much to advice since I was lucky enough to find success on my own. I double clutch my Gophers, get Corns up to 3 foot in a year, get lots of eggs from young females and see my collection thriving. If I feel what I think are follicles in a snakes belly that I had no intention of trying to breed I'd put her in with a male immediately. That does not mean I care any less for my snakes than you do. I am a breeder no doubt. I want my snakes to reach maturity as quick as possible and often they do within 18 months and none of my snakes are obese and none regurge. There's more than one way to skin a cat. If Franks, Rainers and my way is not the same as yours it does not mean it is the wrong way or will it mean it is bad for the snake. Some short snakes are quite stocky while others are pencil thin. I think we can all guess which would be more capable of producing that year. How would you/we anyone know if this is possible if someone doesn't try? Someone did, they shared results and people want to discredit it and or simply not believe it or criticuze it. I am too busy for this nonsense but just wanted to make a post or two. I am gonna stick with posting pictures.... Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Great post Tom!!!! Thank you for it!!!
I do see what you are saying and I have seen what Frank has been saying all along, due to his longetivity in breeding. I have read many, many posts of his before we got into our discussion.

I, along with others you happen to know, simply don't agree with it. So the female ends up cycling? Have we forgotten how big eggs can get? Why not just wait till they are bigger? Although I can't speak for others, I believe you really do love your animals. Wouldn't you want to do things that would make it possible so that your females would go through the least amount of trouble as possible in terms of breeding and laying eggs?

I have practiced what I have preached in both viewpoints, and my conclusions were that it was best for the snake to just let her size get bigger, so that she would be o.k. in the long run.

Thanks for you post!!! I really appreciate it!

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

I got a small adult that was actually a 2000, a Brooksi. Now I have bred younger snakes her size, and smaller. This snake was a virgin and in perfect health. Great animal, great pet. I bred her this year, and she got eggbound. She is the only snake I have ever had get eggbound. I have no idea why, but she was a solid 40 inches or longer and had normal girth on her. This is one case of a million, and in statistics or whatever it would amount to a miniscule piece of info. However it happened and I continue to have success with the grow em fast breed em young way to do things. Just like Frank and Rainer have had success with their spin on it. It's all good, as long as the snakes come out of it fine. We may influence things in captivity, but I think nature still has a firm grip on the outcomes of our efforts. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Not to keep this debate going, but I have to say I agree Discern. I always wait until I know that the female is posotively of good health, weight, length, etc. Oh, I think you guys set a record on longest subject in a message bored. Have a great weekend guys. Sam.

Thank you for your post Sam! Have a good weekend as well!

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

LMAO!!!!!!!
Todd Hughes

There are only a few on here that DON'T believe it can be done, maybe more that believe it shouldn't be done, but many here KNOW that it CAN be and DOES happen in nature! It isn't about the money with Frank, don't you see? He doesn't force anything. He is always about supporting the snakes and let THEM show YOU what they can and will do. If he couldn't wait, I suppose we would all be buying most of our kings from him, LOL!!! You just don't get it. He has done his homework and yours as well as mine! He refined your way of keeping 'cause he invented it! Frank, write the book already, lol! Sheesh, I know enough to take good advice when it is offered and he isn't saying you should breed snakes at 18", he is saying it isn't a problem to do so if you properly support the snakes. Next batter!
Todd Hughes

Yes, you are right, as some don't believe it can be done. I think it can, I just don't think it should. And also, you have to remember that snakes in the wild and snakes in captivity are two totally different situations.

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

What he is also saying is that the closer your husbandry gets to in nature, the more things you see happen in captivity. The snakes don't learn new ways to do it, they do it the way they have forever. The wider the temp ranges and the more room you give them the closer they get to outside. Substrate for nesting, temps, variety in diet, tons of factors, look on the grayband forum to see the lizard vs. mice stuff, interesting stuff. If you haven't been to where your snakes are from, you can't appreciate the whole picture. I have waited a year to match up the black and white splendida I caught last year. While waiting, I find a large male here that is brown and yellow, no black, while on the coast they are more holbrooki looking. Same county, same snakes different. Outside allows for more things to happen, but you can do these things in your snake room. Found a locality female for the other(pictured) king but she is "normal" from his exact locality. She is 26" and he is about the same. I have no fear of breeding them and hope for a nice healthy clutch. The size thing never entered my mind. I know they can, but will my husbandry allow them, that is my only question. To better my odds I will go with Frank's style of nesting box and offer food as she wants it. Variety of temps and even thinking about feeding the snake a few lizards before and after brumating that were fed grasshoppers from the wild, not storebought crickets, maybe feed my mice some grasshoppers. Am I afraid of parasites? A little, but I want to try something different, to see if I support them better. I am out there with my ideas, but 99% of my collection is wild caught, I know exactly where my snakes are from and for their sake, I hope I don't fail them. If I do I will reevaluate, but if I have success, how would you feel about my methods and how much and what kind of success would it take for you to see not that I am right but that different ways can be of some help? Wait'll you see my approach to stubborn feeders! Hah! I don't have any, yet! Open your mind and maybe you will see what is really being discussed here. It can and does and the snakes can do it and be healthy if properly supported.
Todd Hughes

Oh, I completely agree that if we have snakes in captivity that we should mimic nature the best we can. We can't sit there, put an empty plastic box inside a snake cage and then expect the female to go, " oh yeah, I feel secure laying here! This reminds me of the log, tunnels, or hidden areas underground!! Allright!" LOL!!!!!

All these factors are so important in how are snakes thrive. Also, not everyone does everything the same. We all know that. Diversity is how we can learn from one another. Frank appears to have knowledge of this, and I have good sources that have confirmed that he has bred for a long time. It is conversation skills though and humility that he is clearly lacking.

And also, again, people are in a rush to breed their snakes and patience is not a virtue for those who are caring more about wanting to make money in this hobby and don't see how actions now could affect things in the future. Breeding an 18 inch snake, the size of my northern pine babies after they hatched and I purchased them, to me is wrong and signifies selfish intentions. Your 26 inch female, which by the way may be bigger by the time you breed her, is still too small in my opinion, but your chances of problems arising are a lot fewer and heck she may be 28-30 inches by breeding time. Still better than 18 inches.

One of my friends who has bred splendida for a long time, was also incensed by the 18 inch breeding idea and would never breed any king, specifically his splendidas, that young and short.

I love your splendida!!!! Very pretty animal!! Here is my first and only splendida.
Take care and thank you for your post!

Billy

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Genesis 1:1

Inexperience does not automatically mean poor husbandry or maintenance.
There are plenty of breeders who are practicing good husbandry. I would say that some of the best examples of captive maintenance is found in the casual hobby keeper who has a wonderful display-sized cage in their home. Many commercial breeders have a special one they keep in this same way. Some of these are never bred their entire long happy healthy lives. Commercial breeder Robert Applegate offers examples of some of his recordkeeping (available on his website for free) showing Pueblan milks producing an average of 19 per year, 137 hatchlings over nine years. He documents a male successfully breeding two females at nine months old without brumating. His snakes live in a rack system their entire lives with every cycle, shed, introduction, pairing, etc carefully planned like an assembly line. I doubt he has time to play with every snake and treat it as well as the casual hobbyists favorite pampered pet. Snakes are not to be thought of in human terms about what they like. It is quite easy to provide their basic needs. They are naturally driven to survive and will adapt to every level of maintenance provided it meets all of their most basic requirements. Snakes do not care at all whether they lay their eggs in the great outdoors, the water bowl, a deli cup of moistened vermiculite or anything else. They care precisely that amount where they meet their mate. Or hibernate. Ditto for the care of their own babies. To think they do is crazy talk. It is the factualness of these points that they are so easily taken advantage of for captive maintenance and production. You can always strive for better husbandry, but at some fairly easily attainable logical point, it is good enough. From that point it becomes all about your human feelings, not the snakes. Most of the standard accepted maintenance in our hobby is completely adequate and doesn’t deserve the impression by some that it is some sort of collective problem.

That one is striking!
Todd Hughes

Yes snakes can get eggbound but the small females most likely also have a tendency to lay smaller eggs. That is a guess but I have seeen evidence of it in my collection. I also purchased a 5 year old Brooks last year that was not even 4 foot, as the previous owner did not feed anything like I feed my snakes as far as quantity. Many say age is a factor. This was the first snake ever under my roof to ever become eggbound. Why? I don't know... but I have always thought if the snakes will breed I let them breed regardless of size or age and knock on wood I have done fine. Just some more to ad to this post, as I know some people swear age is an important factor,,,,in this case it was not. Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

This is all speculation and I might be flat out completely wrong.

While a little girl snakie in nature may in fact be emitting pheromones, that does not mean that she is going to breed.

My female albino was receptive to my male last month. I put her in his cage, she stretched herself out, did not try to evade him, allowed him to get his jollies.

Now I've seen reports here that sometimes the male has to pursue the female before breeding actually occurs. In captivity, where is the female going to go? She can't get away. The horny male is going to pursue. I'm not convinced that the little girl snakes in the wild are so receptive to being bred. If they evade the males, they just might be largely succesful at it, could they?
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Your right, your doing nothing but spectulating. I am sure, one single female could evade males if she chose to.

But that leads to very non biological thinking. Animals cycle, they then seek out a mate. Not evade a mate. They are chemically(hormones) bound to seek out a mate.

Your using human values on animals(anthropomorphic) animals do not even know what age they are. How would they? In otherwords, they only cycle when they are able. Genetically, those not able were culled decades upon decades ago.

Also your spectulation is not about the same question. There are different questions, for instance, will female only copulate with certain males, or perfer some males over others. There is lots of evidence of this.

But that is not the question, we are talking about females that have already excepted a male.

To understand this, there are basic behaviors that must be understood. Many of these behaviors were in print by Charles Carpender, in the mid 70's. For instance, clocal gaping is what a receptive female does volunterily, She lifts her tail and opens her cloaca. This means she is saying yes I am ready, etc. This only occurs when the female has ripened ovum.

Tail wagging is what unreceptive females do. Either from not being in cycle(no ovum) or its the wrong male. In this case, they press their vents to the ground and wag their tails in a very pronounced way. This means NO. Again, we are talking about females who said Yes.

Sir, there are a huge range of behaviors. Some in print, most not. But the point here is, before you go on about your spectulation, you may want to do some research. OK, that was wrong, your spectulation caused me to devulge information you can now research. Good luck, Cheers

FR

Im not stupid Ive acknowledged in the past that a female snake when ready biologically to breed and has cycled she can and will be she 18" or 48". My point is that I think 18" breedable females is not the norm. The fact that you may remember some of the ones you found gravid at 18" is maybe testament to that. Do you remember how many 18" female Common Kings you found gravid as opposed to 24-30" common Kings you found gravid ? Dont Kings have large clutches so there is a higher chance of some of the babies surviving ? Seriously what kind of clutch could a 18" King lay that ? 2-4 eggs maybe and how big would those hatchlings be ? Seems that 18" breeders would not be very condusive to increasing the population as opposed to a larger female laying 10-25 eggs. Again my popint isnt that they cant its that it doesnt seem to make sense that they do with any regularity and if so what purpose does it serve ?

Keith
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I agree Keith, I too do not think it is of the norm. Actually, me and breeders I know that have been breeding for a long time have actually had a lot of laughter from all of this.

The point is not that we don't believe it can be done, but still, what purpose does it serve? Isn't it hypocritical to want to produce as many babies as possible but only produce 2-4 from an 18 in. female, while if the breeder just waited a few years, let the poor snake grow out of respect for it, and then breed it, to then have a lot more eggs?

There may never be an agreement between myself, those I know, and those that agree with breeding kings at 18 inches. We can just voice our opinions.

Take care!
Billy
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Genesis 1:1

I have been breeding small snakes and getting normal size clucthes. For me it is the norm. I guess what is not the norm is for people to try breeding them at a smaller size. Or rather it is the norm to withhold breeding smaller snakes.

Also in my own experience I see no correlation between large clutches and large snakes and small clutches and small snakes. I get both ends from either end of the spectrum.

Anyway you look at it, I have been breeding a large colony of snakes this way for years. I will do it again next year and the following years. The neonates are fine and are of average size while some are monsters. Just like clutch sizes, fertility and eggbinding. You get some and lose some with any size snake. Its not the size of the snake but the motion of the ocean. In other words.. the ocean being the owner not providing what the snake wants.

Keith what doesn't make sense is you. You seem to want to tell snakes what to do.

I have to ask, what is normal????? do you know? what percentage breed at 18 to 24 inches, what percentage breed at 24 to 36 inches? and what percentage breeds at 5 feet? do you know?

Then consider under what conditions or how conditions effect this?

Why smaller individuals reproduce is very simple, you may want to think over your mental abilities. It takes far less FOOD, to allow small individuals to reproduce then large individuals. When prey is scarce, the small add to the population(recruit) When prey is abundant, all sizes contribute. When conditions are highly adverse, they smaller individuals perish, and it larger ones survive to start it over.

ITS normal to have a range of reproductive abilities.

Then consider is prey availability the same year to year, local to local? Do you understand what a static population is? you know, where there are mostly large adults. Reproduction is these populations is minimal. The reason is, the adults consume the prey to a point there is not enough for reproduction. As in, the habitat is full. Then there are young populations, these is where the adults have died off for various reasons. ALso this occurs from natural and manmade impact of the habitat. More young and less adults. This also occurs when neonates move out to extend the range. These have need for the small to recruit.

What is normal is all of that and more. What is not normal is you telling the animals what they are suppose to do and at what size.

Also, why do you confuse the issue by showing an 18 inch eastern which is comparable to a 12 inch cal king. Easterns are a much larger snake.

The truth is, you can do whatever blows your skirt up, and surely you do. But that has little to do with what is normal for any givin snake.

You can say what is normal for you, but that surely doesn't reflect what is normal for me and my snakes. Get it?

Calkings can and do reproduce from the 18 inch range on up. That is what they do. That is normal for them. The percentages vary by ambient conditions.

What is normal for you, is based entirely on your husbandry. You do understand, if you feed well, an 18 cal king is still a baby and WILL NOT CYCLE. But if the snake did not have abundant food, it could be three or four years old and only 18 inches. Do you understand that?

In nature that ability allows snakes to exsist over a wide range of conditions. It gives them the ability to survive "bad" years.

I am sure you have heard that wild snakes do not grow nearly as fast as captives, OR AS FAT. haven't you?

Its true in most cases, wild snakes have to much competition to grow that fast(for food, and parasites to support) But under an abundance of food they can grow faster then captives, again both and more, is NORMAL. Cheers

Ok, I've been reading this whole thing and I HAVE to put my 2 cents in. Both sides have equally good points, and both are equally stubborn. I have been breeding snakes and lizards for about 5 years now, just to let you know I'm not a rookie chump. Ha. FR you are obviously intelligent and I, as well as most people on here, could learn a lot from you. Well, basically everyone in this discussion seems valid on their points. Anyway, to get to the point, I agree that letting a snake breed at 18 inches is pretty extreme. I also agree that if it does breed and has good eggs then you might as well. I think that the snake could have big problems in the future. I bred two corns, the female was quite small..around 22. I had a small clutch but everything was fine.But then she stopped breeding at 4. The only way to tell if a snake is ready to breed, is to give it a chance. I don't know....kind of pointless little paragraph but hey, I'm bored. Sam.

I guess it comes down to the amount of data a person has.

If you get someone that is breeding a snake for the first time and it is 18" and lay all good eggs. Then he will say its is okay to breed them small. On the other hand if he did not produce good eggs and the snakes dies or gets egg bound then that person will say the snake should be bigger. Do you see what I am getting at?

Most of those people have also never tried breedings small snakes (have you?). So how does one justly recognize the the obvious...

FR and myself have been breeding many thousands of snakes. Our data is overwelming when compared to some of the people who post an opinion.

You rock too Bluerosy!!! It's all about the evidence and all the annectdotal info that Frank puts out there is worth a ton, I bet Bluerosy has some good records that are not public but he also puts lots of annectdotal info out there from "the lab". Pound for pound it is more than you have brought to the table. Tha's all I'm sayin'!
Todd Hughes

Frank

Don't you think that an 18 inch female in the wild is a much different animal then a fattened, out of shape 18 inch animal in captivity? The wild snake is probobly lots older and has more/ better muscle tone. It seems to me like this whole post is about 2 different snakes.

Unlike everyone else on this forum Id like some more information instead of a fight.

just curious, how old were the kings that you have bred at 18in? 8 months or 1.5 years?

Do you see any difference with clutch size, egg size, or hatchling viability from females that are this small?

See my new post for one more question.

I see where you are coming from blue, but try not to insult my intelligence. I agree with everything you said there but again, never said I didn't have stacks of data either. The most part of this forum has been opinion over facts. I agree with zach...let's see some data of these smalls breeders. I just want to see how big they are...girth wise. Most of my juvi's are long and thin and do not have much mass at all.

Wow thats insulting I dont think Im fighting but debating nor has anyone else been insulting or fighting (well FR has a little lol). I asked the same questions you did but got zero answers.

Keith
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I have nothing but respect for the majority of people on this forum, including you. It just frustrates me when I have to read 45 minutes worth of pissing contests and bickering to glean some valuable info from some smart people on this forum. I hope you agree, less bull and more snakes.
cheers

More bullsnakes! KINGSNAKE

Here is some more bull to be added!
( love your bullsnake BTW! )

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Genesis 1:1

Now THAT'S a lotta bull! Great! (kingsnake)
Todd Hughes

Very pretty!
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Genesis 1:1

Who are you trying to convince and of what? are you trying to convince yourself? me?

Actually I can address what you say with more attention to the bizarre. A fat captive out of shape 18 inch snake is only comparable to another fat captive out of shape 18 inch snake.

Your task is to not support that, but to allow strong capable healthy 18 inch captive snakes. Is that not the point. No one told me I was suppose to only count the weak and abused individuals. consider a fat out of shape snake would not cycle or if it did it would fail. But it did not fail because its 18 inches, it failed because its fat and out of shape. Please do not confuse those two issues.

In other words, what are you thinking????? I guess we have an entirely different view of what captives are like. My suggestion is, try and keep your snakes from being fat and out of shape. Sir, fat and out of shape is product of the poor husbandry I have previously mentioned. Cheers

I never said I had fat out of shape 18 inch snakes. But that doesn't mean that they are the exact smae as wild snakes either.

To be honest I haven't had a snake that has cycled at 18 inches (20 inches is my record and she had 4 perfect eggs) and if I did I think that it would breed just fine.

But are you saying that there is no difference between a properly cared for snake in captivity and a wild snake? Because I beg to differ on many levels. You said it youself somewhere else in this long post that a wild snake may be several years old and still only 18 inches long. How many of your three year old calis are 18 inches??????

The type, quantity, and regularity of even the best captive diet promotes a different metabolism then snakes in the wild eating lean lizards on a more sporadic basis.

FR

Please answer my questions...How many gravid 18" snakes have you found compared to larger than 18" gravid Cals (lets say 22" and over)? Im not making or telling a snake what to do or to fit into my idea of what a snake does. I think its dumb to think that all snakes are the same. Animals of all makes and models reach sexual maturity at different ages or sizes. Do you agree ? You make it sound like every 18" Cal King is able to breed ??? How can you know that ? I contend and yes Im way less experienced than you but I contend that some can while many cant. You made mention that females that cycle that dont breed are in danger of becoming bound or having to reabsorb ovum. I dont seem to hear of this too much from many folks. Kerby do all your 18" females if not bred to a male produce ovum and re-absorb or lay slugs are get bound ? I bet it doesnt happen much. You seem to be attacking at the angle that Im saying its not possible for 18" Kings to breed and Im not saying that so pull yer head out of the sand and listen or read my posts more carefully. I know small young females can be ready to produce offspring I just think more cant than can. So where is your data ? How many gravid 18" Kings have you found in the wild ? How many have you personally bred in captivity ? The comment that the snake in my hand is an Eastern and not a Cal is irrelevant as 18" is 18" it was a size example. How does a 18" Cal King look differnt size wise to a 18" Eastern King ?

Keith

>>Keith what doesn't make sense is you. You seem to want to tell snakes what to do.
>>
>> I have to ask, what is normal????? do you know? what percentage breed at 18 to 24 inches, what percentage breed at 24 to 36 inches? and what percentage breeds at 5 feet? do you know?
>>
>> Then consider under what conditions or how conditions effect this?
>>
>> Why smaller individuals reproduce is very simple, you may want to think over your mental abilities. It takes far less FOOD, to allow small individuals to reproduce then large individuals. When prey is scarce, the small add to the population(recruit) When prey is abundant, all sizes contribute. When conditions are highly adverse, they smaller individuals perish, and it larger ones survive to start it over.
>>
>> ITS normal to have a range of reproductive abilities.
>>
>> Then consider is prey availability the same year to year, local to local? Do you understand what a static population is? you know, where there are mostly large adults. Reproduction is these populations is minimal. The reason is, the adults consume the prey to a point there is not enough for reproduction. As in, the habitat is full. Then there are young populations, these is where the adults have died off for various reasons. ALso this occurs from natural and manmade impact of the habitat. More young and less adults. This also occurs when neonates move out to extend the range. These have need for the small to recruit.
>>
>> What is normal is all of that and more. What is not normal is you telling the animals what they are suppose to do and at what size.
>>
>> Also, why do you confuse the issue by showing an 18 inch eastern which is comparable to a 12 inch cal king. Easterns are a much larger snake.
>>
>> The truth is, you can do whatever blows your skirt up, and surely you do. But that has little to do with what is normal for any givin snake.
>>
>> You can say what is normal for you, but that surely doesn't reflect what is normal for me and my snakes. Get it?
>>
>> Calkings can and do reproduce from the 18 inch range on up. That is what they do. That is normal for them. The percentages vary by ambient conditions.
>>
>> What is normal for you, is based entirely on your husbandry. You do understand, if you feed well, an 18 cal king is still a baby and WILL NOT CYCLE. But if the snake did not have abundant food, it could be three or four years old and only 18 inches. Do you understand that?
>>
>> In nature that ability allows snakes to exsist over a wide range of conditions. It gives them the ability to survive "bad" years.
>>
>> I am sure you have heard that wild snakes do not grow nearly as fast as captives, OR AS FAT. haven't you?
>>
>> Its true in most cases, wild snakes have to much competition to grow that fast(for food, and parasites to support) But under an abundance of food they can grow faster then captives, again both and more, is NORMAL. Cheers
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Keith, your being your normal thick headed self. I have already explain the reproductive stradgy(a very general overview). I did not say anywhere that all will breed at 18 inches, I do not believe Bluerosy said that either. We said, it happens, it happens both in captivity and in nature. Period(that is what we said). As mentioned the percentage varies with the conditions that allow it to happen.

Its absolutely meaningless to how many i found. I have found quite a few. What is meaningful is, it occurs naturally. Also of interest, I have seen this in many species of snakes and lizards. In other words, its not magically about Cal kings. Again, that has already been explained

About not answering questions, I asked you lots of questions, of which, you answered none. Why? OH I know, you did not respond because you have no stinking idea of what the answers are.

The truth is, what percentage and how often is not known. So of course you do not know. Neither do I. That is occurs on a regular basis, is a wonder.

Of concern is, if small females fail or are infertile, its not their fault, ITS YOURS. ADJUST YOUR HUSBANDRY. A funny thought hey?

Lastly, you made the rule that it does not occur and or, its wrong. With that in mind, it only takes ONE exception to prove you are wrong in your assumption. How often it occurs is only icing on the cake. Cheers

""Kerby do all your 18" females if not bred to a male produce ovum and re-absorb or lay slugs are get bound ?""

I've never bred 18" females. Some do ovulate that I have noticed and I didn't breed them and nothing happened to them. I have bred numerous 18 month old females, some as small as 20-24 inches. Never had ANY FEMALE lay slugs (all). The only 2 females that ever became egg bound on me were an older Mex-Mex and an older Cal King. Both finally passed the egg months later and continue to breed in future years.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Kerby, are you good at breeding cal kings? I will answer for you, YES. Are most here as good(successful) as you? I will answer again, NO.

So Kerby, you do not represent the average keeper of kingsnakes? The average keeper of kingsnakes will most likely have problems with females absorbing ovum. Don't you think? Also, don't you think the average keeper(or the nay sayers) that have problems with infertility or eggbinding in young females, needs to adjust their husbandry? Or do you think its the snakes fault?

I am sure you do not have problems with young small snakes, do you? my bet is, you(and I for that matter) see better results from the young then the very old, is that true??? Cheers

"What is normal for you, is based entirely on your husbandry. You do understand, if you feed well, an 18 cal king is still a baby and WILL NOT CYCLE. But if the snake did not have abundant food, it could be three or four years old and only 18 inches. Do you understand that?

In nature that ability allows snakes to exsist over a wide range of conditions. It gives them the ability to survive "bad" years."

>>>I was wondering if you would ever going to say that. I was thinking the exact same thing. One of snakes primary tools is their ability to wait out adverse conditions and be ready to exploit them when favorable ones arise. I saw this from 1996 thru 2003 in Texas when relatively few alterna were collected and west Texas was in a drought. Then in 2004 and 2005 there was alot of rain and the numbers collected went way up. Many of those snakes collected were subadults... or maybe actually small adults. I had not thought of that at the time.

The way I see it, the problem is when someone wants scientific data. Screw that. You raise em up, brumate them and sometimes they will breed. There is plenty of free info to practice fairly decent husbandry of your captives. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. I have seen some snaggle toothed swamp rats who couldn’t read write or cipher could breed hell out of snakes. Wouldn’t know a gram from a telegram. To each his own. If you got something worthy of showing off, people will look and take notice and ask. Take it all in and do your thing. Take notes and share. Maybe I will copy your method, maybe I will tweak it, maybe I’ll try it another way. Maybe I’ll raise my snakes on velvet pillows. Look what it says at the top of the page under Kingsnake.com- “The Online Community for the Reptile & Amphibian Hobbyist”. It is working just fine, no problem.

“It’s not like rocket surgery”
My favorite quote from DLR

That is very true! Give me your notes and I will copy them, just don't tell the teacher! This is better than the boob tube! All I have ever wanted out of this forum was to contribute something worthwhile, but when my methods differ from most, I get flak. I say if you are a breeder worth his salt, take a crappy pair and try something different to see for yourself if it works or not then share what you haved learned. And post some pics! Shoot, I haven't seen a new pic in 15-20 posts!
Todd Hughes

WOW, he's 19" already???
He's looking really good! He's lightening up quite fast! I like that. I'm actually hoping for some nice whitish colors when he gets older. Looks like he's got a good start!!! Thanks!

Hey Keith, did my wife send you the "you-know-what" yet?

Zee
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

No and actually I just emailed you as Im going to be getting some chow here pretty quick.

Keith
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