Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, so I am addicted to talking to you guys! I've never talked to other lampro breeders. So what's the average weight you guys have for letting them breed? No need for an arguement just a number. Thanks a bunch. Sam

I'm interested in this as well.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Oh gosh. Here we go again.

How come after a million mile long post on this subject you would ask this? Its obvious you will only gets answers from one side of this forum because your question is a paradox.

I am staying out of it because your preconceieved ideas of what the size SHOULD be is not the right question.

You will only get answers from those that think you should not let the snakes breed until they reach a certain size. Which is crazy. Like FR and I have been saying. It does not matter if the snake is 2 inches and weighs a couple ounces or is 10 feet long and 30lbs. When a female snake ovulates and gives off phermones to attaract a male that is when it is time. If you don't want to "let" them that is your doing and not the snakes choice.

Geez! That's why I said just put a number But seriously I just want to know....no one argue....no one question each others answer. Just give me some numbers so I know what's going on. I don't want a debate, just a number.

Yes what Frank seems to be doing is trying to break us of standardized husbandry, that is, husbandry that fits the lowest common denominator. Of course that is what any good BASIC book will give you, basic techniques. The easiest way that will allow the most people to succeed.
After you have learned the basics and no longer think in terms of a safe recipe that gives you years, size, weight, etc. for success you may begin to think as Frank says, in terms of life events.
I am not an expert but I tend more to ask things like what is the oldest female to successfully reproduce? What was her length, weight & age when she first reproduced? How much did she produce during her lifetime? What was her diet? How was she kept? Guys like Frank have probably outlived generations of successful and failed captives. It is good to learn the basic recipies first, it helps prevent failing our captives but it is also a rare treat to get insight into concepts such as Frank is sharing.

I'm not quite sure what that means. I breed a number of different reptiles, I have a few years under the belt. Ha. I just want a number people. How many grams is good for breeding? I know it's a vague question but still try to answer it, not go around the subject.

I don't own a scale and have never even weighed any of my snakes ever. I am sure I have read it somewhere but I cannot recall it otherwise I would tell you. I pretty much go by age and appearance. I usually breed at 3 years old for females and 2 years old for males. Usually if a 3 year old snake looks healthy (no backbone showing) I breed her. My main goal when raising a snake is to prevent obesity, I like my snakes to look about 5 to 10 percent more filled out than wild caughts and I don't mean wild caughts in a store I mean in the field.
I am sure Frank would say I could and maybe should be breeding at 2 years but as long as my snakes are not obese I don't care.
I do think that some of my snakes may have been ready to breed at 2 and I threw them off schedule because I have gotten infertile clutches at first breedings of 3 year olds who later have "got on track" at 4 and laid good eggs. There I am not really concerned either with getting maximum production. I am more concerned with egg binding of which I have only had 3 events in about 14 years.

Applegate reported that colubrids under a certain weight would still develop follicles but lay bad eggs and sometimes die as a result.

I'll try to find that article on his website.

Anyway, if FR is correct that not allowing a snake to breed that develops follicles is bad, then knowing what weights work would allow control over who brumates, so that snakes that don't have the necessary mass won't be cycled until they do.

Thus, I think it is a valid question.

Now, I'm sure I'll be told that I don't understand the mechanics and I should just bow before the god like knowledge of those who do, but I'm sorry, I only serve one God, men are mere mortals - and men probably actually know less than 1% of what they think they know.

Understanding the "mechanics" would of course be easier if references to peer reviewed academic publications would be made, I could request the journal at my library.

Anyway, from the way I look at it - maybe I don't understand "the mechanics" - but if I don't even brumate a snake because I don't understand the mechanics, no harm has been done because she won't be cycled and therefore won't need to breed. So if I only hear from one side, no harm is done, correct? Maybe I'll miss an opportunity to produce a few, but so what? It's not like getula breeders are in short supply ...

I don't know how Applegates knowledge compares to those on this board, but he certainly is a guru and certainly developed a system that works quite well for breeding many colubrids.

Given that he sees a weight issue exists, I don't think it is wise to just dismiss it outright. That's where scientific investigation into the matter would be very beneficial.

I like baseball and all, but biology is a science, and the scientific method is a tried and true methodology.

Since no harm is done to a female by not brumating her, one can be safe rather than sorry.

I'm going to try FRs nesting techniques, but until I have it figured out how to implement it properly, then there is chance that my snakes will lay under more stressful conditions, no? If that's the case, FR may point to it as a husbandry issue, and he may be 100% correct, but that still doesn't change the fact that a snake died.

If I don't breed small females and underweight females until I have succesfully repeatedly implemented the proper husbandry for gravid snakes that FR has been kind enough to share, then I will have less deaths, and once I've mastered the technique, perhaps I can experiment with smaller or underweigtht specimens (if I even feel the need to).

Is that a wrong approach?
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

I learned from Bob Applegate to give the Females 2 winters, the first they can be kept warm and fed throughout. Prior to the second Winter, evaluate them for size relating to their species. I dont go by weight so much, as there is such a difference between Pueblans and Hondurans at 2 years. If they seem of good size and health, I brumate and breed the following spring. That works for me.

I understand the genetics and the biology of snakes. I also breed lizards and we usually let them get to a certain weight before we introduce them for breeding. I was just curious if there is a weight like 40 grams, 50 grams and so on. I guess there is no clear answer, then again everyone went around the subject. Sam.

Most of my cal kings are hatched in late August and into Sept. I do not brumate them (my holdbacks for future breeders) the first winter. But I do brumate them the next year, making them 18-19 months old when they breed, not 2 years old (Sept).

I do brumate all of the other baby cal kings along with the adults.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

For the record - that's what I was (am) planning to do.
Feed through first winter, assuming no known health problems exist, brumate second winter.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata