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My theory on the Paradigm Boas:

First off, my opinions are simple. Just like me. I am a simply man without advanced education but a bucket of common sense knowing the basics of genetics. I figure stuff out. I have figured out a lot of stuff. I am observant and logical. However, I must confess when many terms are used, that are scientific terms, my eyes start to glaze over and I get lost. Everything becomes a blur. It would be nice once in a while, if those who do have more advanced education could put more of what they write into "simple" terms for a simpleton like me. Instead of writing information for a symposium on genetics for geneticists, how about trying to teach these practical truths to a regular guy like me. That being said, here is what a simple man like myself thinks is going on here.

Many will remember that I am the whacko who thinks that het for Albino Boas can be identified by certain markers present to varying degrees in young hets. This particular theory has met with varying degrees of acceptance in the Boa world. Well, I have a number of Sharp hets and I have observed the exact same bright eyes in them that I observe in Kahl bloodline hets. I only have one Caramel animal and some hets that he produced this year. My Caramel hets seem to also have this slightly bright eye thing going as well. Interesting huh? Technically, I think if the Kahl Albino trait or the Sharp Albino trait or the Caramel Hypo trait can be identified in their heterozygous form, they should more accurately be identified as incomplete dominant traits vs. simple recessive. I know that is hard to swallow after "knowing" that Albinos are simple recessive, but I think that likely would be more accurate. That point really is irrelevant to the specific discussion here though. What label is placed on them is not as important as what has happened here with the Paradigm Boas.

I believe that the Caramel Hypo gene and the Sharp gene are completely separate genes and not the same gene at all. The notion that a Tyrosinase positive and a Tyrosinase negative gene could be the exact same gene seems like a pipe dream to me. Aren’t these two completely different chemically? I’m out of my comfort zone with that question and I am making my own eyes glaze over now. These are two completely different non-complimentary traits. I believe this must be just wishful thinking. When these two separate genes are present in one animal, the normal production of black pigmentation is interrupted to such an extent so as to alter the appearance or production of normal melanin in the animals we now know as Paradigm Boas. It's pretty simple really and does not require the believing in miracles that I think is required to think that the VPI T-Positive gene and the Sharp Albino gene are the exact same gene. This is going to sound like a simpleton again but there are so many genes that control millions of characteristics, that the possibility of these two being the exact same gene and causing completely different outcomes just doesn't make logical sense to my limited mind anyhow. But then I am a simple man.

I think the Caramel hets carrying only one Caramel gene cause a change that whether we can actually observe it or not is very real. This change alters to some tiny extent the production of black pigmentation. I also believe the exact same thing is true with the Sharp hets. When these two genes are both present and are both making their individual distinct contributions, you get a T-Positive appearing animal. Now in practical application whether or not the whole "enzyme" production thing is exactly in place as it should be to meet the precise definition of Tyrosinase Positive or not is really only relevant on paper. In reality in making cool Boas, the resultant appearance is the same. One other important thing to note is the Paradigm Boas that Mike has produced that I have seen are the best looking T-Positive animals I have personally seen. In fact the picture of the Adult he showed is by far the best looking adult T-Positive Boa I have ever seen. That is really what it is all about. Making great looking Boas.

Of course soon enough Bigg Mike will be proving more of what can be done with the Paradigm Boas and I for one am really looking forward to see what happens next!
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>>My theory on the Paradigm Boas:
Very Well Said !
Not likely to happen very often in here,when ones social standing might slip a notch or two.Thankfully there are people like you to express common terms with common people in mind.

M/

>>
>>First off, my opinions are simple. Just like me. I am a simply man without advanced education but a bucket of common sense knowing the basics of genetics. I figure stuff out. I have figured out a lot of stuff. I am observant and logical. However, I must confess when many terms are used, that are scientific terms, my eyes start to glaze over and I get lost. Everything becomes a blur. It would be nice once in a while, if those who do have more advanced education could put more of what they write into "simple" terms for a simpleton like me. Instead of writing information for a symposium on genetics for geneticists, how about trying to teach these practical truths to a regular guy like me.
>>

Alot of people tend to think of me as some sort of genetics whiz,but in reality,I'm just an ordinary hobbyist who likes to see things for what they are,as opposed to what they are not,like Fox Mulder,I'm just looking for the "truth",I know it's out there!(*lol*)...that's pretty simple right? before we all work ourselves into cerebral-combustion,and try to what-if this thing to death on its second day of introduction,(nobody's got a crystal ball,right? or a tyrosinase test kit in their back pocket?)let's look at it for what we KNOW it is: a new combinant mutation. we've seen what it looks like,it now has a name...we also know what the ingredients are,(at least from a familiar identification standpoint.) let's take it for what we can agree it is,and work out the answers to the questions like a simple math equasion,and let the animals themselves,through breeding results,tell us "what's going on"???the two genetic ingredients of this new appearence each seem to act as a catalyst for a new appearence...the rest will come in time as we gather more information,we don't need to split any atoms,or re-invent any genetic terminology just yet...let's just do the math,and we'll teach triganometry after we have the correct answers??? (that's pretty simple I think.)
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

a Tyrosinase test kit.

This past spring when I came up to Cornell to see the campus I was talking to one of the herpetology professors about my hobby, there is a lot I wanted to learn, but I am an engineering student.

Anyway, I brought up the various amelanistic mutations in boas. We have Kahl and Sharp then Colombian, Argentine, Nicaraguan, and an Insular "T-Plus Albino" and now we have this Paradigm.
I read a few years ago about a DOP A test that was done in rat snakes to determine why two Albinos weren't compatible. At the time I had no idea what was meant by DOP A, and I may not be remembering the name correctly. Regardless the test showed that one of the Albinos was actually T-positive and the other negative, despite the fact that phenotypically they looked alike (similar to Sharp and Kahl, but the looked more alike).

Last year I learned that dopamine is somewhat connected to tyrosinase and melanin, so maybe that was the DOP A test. If so enzyme tests aren't too terrible to accomplish.

When I met with the professor in the spring and introduced the idea of this research he thought it would be possible and put me in contact with some other professors in molecular biology. I don't have the time right now to work on this, but I do plan on it.
I want to know why we have all these "Albinos" and what makes each one look the way it does.

Part of the satisfaction of finding the "truth" is learning to understand the "whys" along the way. What happens all too often in our rush to explain something new,is that we tend to jump to premature conclusions,especially in this facet of the hobby. Money,and marketing,along with other factors lead many people to accept things,that later prove not to be true...then it becomes extremely difficult to get the majority of people back on track,or for some to even consider re-examining what they have been told is the "truth". I've been saying for quite some time now,if we cannot understand the simple things we've already encountered,and fairly thouroughly investigated,it will be nearly impossible to comprehend the things we will likely find in the very near future,as we begin to combine them.(look how many experienced,successful breeders still refer to het. hypos as "co-dom.'s" ) We are standing at the edge of a major change in the hobby,but I think it's a great time to be involved in breeding boas!
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

NP
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No offense Tim, but just like I really enjoy reading your thoughts and insights....I also enjoy reading others as well....I think of these Forums as a way of communicating with multiple people around the world on subjects that they each value and care about....
Forums make this communication possible!

I do not have the money or the time to come over your place to sit and talk...but I would really love to do it...but the forum enables us to do just that! I can talk to people all over the world and gain insight ...if I keep an open mind.....to things I never would have thought possible!

I know some would rather just drop the subjects at hand...well... then just walk away from the computer and leave the conversation to others...then come back when you may have some more to add.....

There are always conversations that are going to be crazy...incorrect...rediculous....just plain insane....because we have all kinds of people out there....that's what makes it all so unique and intertesting....
I hope I do not come across rude or anything other than just plain honest...I just enjoy coming to the forum and reading info that causes my brain to think....take care All...

Andy Federico
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I'm sure plenty of people think I am crazy, lol. I'm just trying to figure it out, instead of keeping my thoughts quiet I write them down to see what other think, agree, disagree, and try to come up with the best answer!

Very well said Andy.

Forums, online chat, and email really help to learn a lot from a lot of people.

When people ask how I learned so much they are shocked that it was through these things. All it takes is a little logic to plug it all together!

I've been using the Forum for that very purpose from the first time I signed on...nobody's bound in any way,to take any opinion posted here for more than what it's worth,and my input is just another opinion...
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

Thank you

Andy
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I don't know how to quote text, so I copied it but you wrote:
"It's pretty simple really and does not require the believing in miracles that I think is required to think that the VPI T-Positive gene and the Sharp Albino gene are the exact same gene."

Where did the VPI T-positive come into play? Or was that a typo?

Anyway, I believe you have another valid theory, though I'll be honest, I have trouble following everything. However I had a late night, and it is early, so I'll have to look over everything later.

I don't think anyone is saying that the genes are the same. Just that the two seperate genes COULD affect the same process that interupts melenain. Breeding a Paradigm x Paradigm should give us the answer.

One thing I am really looking forward to is breeding a Paradigm to a really great Hypo or a unBOAlievable Jugle Hypo will be knee rattling! Come on Bigg Mike! The masses are waiting here!
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Paradigm boas

I have thought about this happening for quite some time…I had not understood or even heard of this project at all….
Truth be known, I have been suspecting something going on in my own boas which has been leading me to think this way…

Jeff Ronne , ….I do not understand genetics at all, but I was of the understanding that each gene has a PAIR of Alleles that makes up that particular genetic factor …be it color …size…missing eyes…brown hair….. blonde hair etc…

If an animal has only one allele that is albino and one allele that is wild type, that animal is considered recessive….

You stated that Mike’s T positive is the best to date…and I agree …but how about the thought that 2 pairs of alleles actually combine to produce that look? Or maybe something like a 3 allele type gene….that gets altered completey?

I have heard a little of the 3 allele types but honestly I do not understand how they work…I guess Paul will have to fill us in on this possibility.

I had thought for some time that I had just got lucky with the particular pairing that I had done….Hypo male to Normal female….

I have noticed the T positive looks in some of my animals…they are absolutely just normals until further breedings may prove different…..I say this for those of you who may just like flaming me….but I feel that it is this understanding that has helped me understand a little more of what is going on with these Paradigms.

In the litters I produced with this particular breeding……the Blacks in both the hypos and normals are mostly browns and purples…of course this could just be wishful thinking but I took notice of what I call visual het factors…and this is what I am trying to prove out someday…until then I have never stated any of my animals are this or that but only questioned these traits…

All that being said…what I see in the T positive breedings of T pos to T pos….is a boa that looks great but then starts browning out as they age…

The best T positive animals in my opinion are those like Mike’s from basically boas….his have retained the T pos look very well….and I believe it is the result of the Sharp strain albino gene allele that is causing this scenario….

My thinking on the 3 allele thoughts are not really understood to me…and I do not know if a 4 allele interacting combo is even a reality but it seems to me that this may be the only way I understand it so far….

If you breed sharp to sharp you get sharps…Some Sharps get that very high contrst look to them ….well what if the single allele of the T positive gene was at work in those very high contrast types? Most people are going to breed to other sharp hets and sharps….therefore most likely never even hitting the combo that could produce the Paradigms….

If it was a 2 x 2 type gene combo and one of the gene alleles are missing you would only have one visual right?

Ok …now my head hurts…so just let me know what you think…and…Paul if you are out there please give more understanding to other types of possibilities…Thanks Andy Federico

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Mike's T Positives are absolutely amazing and I also must admit that his adult is one of the best I've seen! Those Paradigm Boas are awesome! Are those another line of T Positives, like VPI's Caramel Albinos, but Mike's Paradigm Boas?

Since there is all this talk of T Positive and all you smart guys are on this thread. Is this what may have happened in my pairing where somehow two alleles combined to create this one possible T Positive Vs the possibility of the parents being Hets? Could this overlap I guess it would be called, somehow happen again?

and I think that either the parents were both unknown hets or you hit whatever odds there are to produce a RANDOM mutant t-positive. Usually only one allele mutates at random, so each of the parents were technically random mutants when bred together produced your gem.

Did you only get one? If so I would breed the parents again, if you get another (or more) then you could say your breeders are hets, but if you don't get more from them, then your baby beat the odds!

SPONTANEOUS MUTATION. I think this is what happened in your situation. We silly boa people understand basic genetics. We know that we "NEED" het. x het., albino x het., or albino x albino to make albinos. We like to believe that there are rules and that is the only way things can happen. We think we know all and everything can be explained. Therefore we think that somewhere out in the jungle two het. boas happened to find each other and produced the first albinos. This is not what happened. Somewhere in the wild two completely normal boas bred and produced an albino. The rest of the litter was not hets. and the parents were not hets. The first albino was SPONTANEOUS MUTATION. Now sunglows. Not spontaneous. We produced them in captivity. The first striped animal that was imported... SPONTANEOUS. Was the first motley imported? SPONTANEOUS. We know how motleys work. You need a motley to make motleys. You don't need hets. There were not two het. boas that created it. It was a spontaneous mutation. I think your animal will be genetic, but I don't think it will happen again from your breeders, and I don't think they are hets. I spoke to someone selling 66% T albino Argentines. He said they were possible hets. because the parents produced ONE T . The parents have had three good sized litters, and have produced 1 T . The parents are not hets. This was a spontaneous mutation as well. When you breed as many animals as we now produce, funny things happen. They happen in the wild as well, but noone is there to document it and those animals usually don't survive long enough to be discovered. My 3 cents.

Phil Goss

Usually random mutations occur in the heterozygous state, it is a lot less likely that both allele would mutate in the homozygous state.

The first "Kahl" Albino was part of a group, I think five. So in that case I think it is more likely that each of the parents had a random mutation on one allele, and they happened to breed together to produce the Albinos. In cases where only one of the mutation is born from wild type parents, I think that the mutation was entirely random.

(In my humble opinion,)based on the facts...spontaneous mutation does occur however,and is usually a much more plausible consideration when it involves a single individual.nothing possible should be ruled out until all avenues are explored.
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

my Purple Patternless post above.

You will probably follow what I am saying, but I think it needs work to clearify, so feel free to re-word it too.

I love these threads!

trying to get another possible explanation out there. There were multiple albinos imported originally. Did both the Kahl and Sharp strain originate from the same group? If so, why are they not compatible? If not, then how was the Sharp strain born? And which is more unlikely... One random mutant albino born, or two mutant allele holding boas finding each other to produce albino babies? I'm not sure.

Phil Goss

but Something happened!

There were I think 5 Kahls. Pete used to have this info on his website, I'm not sure if it is on his new one. But they had been sold a number of times and hadn't bred, Pete picked up two males I believe.

There was 1 Sharp. The Sharp was a female and the only one from wherever her origin was.

the "original 2004 paradigm" boa looks than the 2006 paradigm on www.paradigmboa.com. It is cleaner and the colors are noticeably different. The same applies to the paradigm in the middle of the litter pic Mike posted. That one paradigm is lighter than all the others (and the paradigm next to it appears to have normal eyes). Maybe this is similar to having standout albinos in a litter of albinos, or maybe there is something "extra" with the lightest paradigms. Maybe since these are forms of albinos, it is more difficult do identify the extra ingredient. Similar to the confusion that was seen when separating amazing albinos from sunglows. All I know is this... It is great to see so much action here on the forum!

Phil Goss

but those are interesting observations.

I'd like to see if the variety is present in the F1 Paradigms from Caramel X Sharp.

It may be that taking the F1 Paradigm X Sharp (or Caramel) would produce Paradigms with varied phenotypes, like degrees of Paradigmness.

I'll use this example. Borneo Bateaters (Retic X Burm hybrid) when bred back to either a Retic or a Burm produces same offsping that look very much like Bateaters, but have more of a mix because of the unequal balance of Retic and Burm genes. Okay, after I typed that it really isn't a great example, and the way that works doesn't fit this case because we are working with mutations. But it may help to illustrate results.

In comparing the 2004 baby, and the 2006 baby Paradigms on the website. You can indeed see differences.

The 2004 one seems to have a higher reduction in melanin, looking at the rings around the tail blotches between the two shows the best example of the differences.
I think this is just a natural varience, like in Hypos (our classic, traditional, dominant hypo, lol), some have more reduction than others in the same areas.

Is in the works right now. Linda H and I have been working on this for a while and believe her female is haveing her POS right now. (knock on wood)

I believe the same thing, or somthing similar will happen with this pairing if it pans out to a litter.

Linda's Pic, her t positive and my male het sharp

I had thought it was possible for the 2 triats to work together like how there are many color phases of albino retics.. Purple, lavendar, and white all can be produced in the same clutch. Thats just speculation, but you never know untill you try..

I believe Moores Carmels are a type of T positive, and similar to how a VPI line T positive colombian gains pigment with age the M- carmels do too just to a greater extent. Look at both types as babies it seems plain to see.. But hey you never know what could happen, it could be a different enzyme that makes each type of T positive look the way it does, and become a visual t postive geneticly. The paradigm boas allels compliment each other making a visual "DH" no telling what other traits could do this.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

if you DO NOT get something similar to Paradigms in the F1 offspring (because you have a het Sharp it should work in half the babies) I think that will support something along the lines of my theory.

If you DO get Paradigms we have even more work ahead of us, like VPI T-plus X Caramel.

If you DON'T get Paradigms in the F1, I think that the double homozygous will look a lot like the Paradigms. Maybe more extreme since the VPI T-plus has less melanin than the Caramel.

My thought on it now is since he is a het and she is homozygous then half of the babies would be paradigm or similar. Reasoning behind this is the paradigim boas with what you'd normaly think would happen should be a normal apearing double het, but seems to have a visual double het apearance. So if you bred a het to a homozygous you should get half double hets, and half hets for just T positive.

Thats just if the 2 allels work the same as they did in the paradigm example.

Honestly it is a bit confusing on a saturday morning...LOL... but thats what makes it interesting..
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

I think a Monday discussion would have clearer thoughts, lol.

Anyway, yes if the two do work as the Sharp and Caramel worked then you would get the results you metioned.

If they don't work the same way, possibly because of how the Caramel and Sharp are related (if they are related), I think that the end result Double Homozygous will look like Paradigms.

On all counts the genetics and the saturday morning...LOL...
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

n/p

First of all, all I know about paradigm boas comes from www.paradigmboa.com. We all stand or fall by its accuracy. And second, eventually the boas will tell us what gives through breeding results. Right now we are just brainstorming.

The first thing that caught my eye was that Sharp albino mated to caramel (aka boawoman hypo) produced a whole litter of paradigms and no normals. Unfortunately the number of babies was not included. However, if there were 10 or more babies, I'd expect some normals if this is not a case of multiple alleles.

>I believe that the Caramel Hypo gene and the Sharp gene are completely separate genes and not the same gene at all. The notion that a Tyrosinase positive and a Tyrosinase negative gene could be the exact same gene seems like a pipe dream to me.

I agree with this. I do not think the caramel (boawoman hypo) and the Sharp albino genes are the same gene, too.

What I do think is that Sharp albino and caramel are different genes that had the same ancestor gene. In other words, a normal gene in one snake contained a mistake when it was reproduced. This gene came down to us as the Sharp albino gene. And the same normal gene in another snake had a different mistake, which came down to us as the caramel mutant gene. Think of the original normal gene as a long word, like Eisenhower. In one location there was a change in one letter, say the h becomes a b and the spelling is now Eisenbower. In a different location there is a different misspelling, say the s becomes a g and the spelling becomes Eigenhower. "Eisenhower" is analogous to the normal gene, "Eisenbower" is analagous to the caramel gene, and "Eigenhower" is analogous to the Sharp albino.

Here's how a case of multiple alleles works. Genes come in pairs in individual creatures. But in this case, there are three genes that might be plugged into two slots. They do not all fit. If I have two wall electrical plugs, and two lamps, two toasters, and two TVs, only two of these six appliances can be run at the same time, but they could be any combination of two.

Take a piece of paper and tear it into six pieces. Write normal on two pieces, Sharp albino on two pieces, and caramel on two pieces. Divide the pieces into two piles, left and right, so that each pile contains one normal, one caramel, and one Sharp albino. Now pull one slip from each pile. These two slips are a pair of genes. There are six different combinations of one slip from each pile:
1. normal and normal
2. normal and caramel
3. normal and Sharp albino
4. caramel and caramel
5. Sharp albino and Sharp albino
6. caramel and Sharp albino
By the way, pile source does not matter as long as one piece of paper comes from the left pile and the other from the right pile. A pair made of a caramel from the left pile and a Sharp albino from the right pile is the same as a pair made of a caramel from the right pile and a Sharp albino from the left pile.

Now let's put the names of the appearances to these combinations:
1. normal and normal = normal
2. normal and caramel = normal (het caramel)
3. normal and Sharp albino = normal (het Sharp albino)
4. caramel and caramel = caramel
5. Sharp albino and Sharp albino = Sharp albino
6. caramel and Sharp albino = paradigm boa

For what it's worth, there are cases of multiple alleles with more than eight rather than just three. One case of multiple alleles is in the mouse. The tyrosinase negative albino mutant has several mutant alleles that can make melanin. These other mutant alleles make different amounts of melanin, but in all cases they make less than the normal allele makes.

Hope this helps.

Paul Hollander

(help) Thanks for taking the time here,I always enjoy reading your posts,and I was looking forward to hearing(reading) your take on this.(now I have to clean up this pile of paper squares. )
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HarlequinBoa.com Captive born excellence through applied genetic theory...and,astute observations based on a keen sense of the sometimes painfully obvious

for explaining that. So a little modification to my theory.

I'm so glad that everyone has contributed to this discussion.

n/p

t-pos sharp, or sharp t-pos and used some creativity in providing a differant name.
I mean how hard is salmon jungle, stripe albino, hypo motley etc etc.
I think some boa folks could take a lesson from the cornsnake folk on creativity as far as names go.
The genetic thing will come to light soon enough.
Breed this paradigm to a normal for starters. The paradigm to paradigm should be interesting as well.
I think it is totally cool how this has happened and that they kept it somewhat a secret for 2 years, is impressive.
Ball pythons dont have nothing on these boas!!

Mike