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My 2nd clutch of lavenders hatched out i have 5 snows in the clutch...

why a surprise...

i know the male is het BHB anery and recently found out he's poss. het lemke axanthic didn't know the female was het axanthic... out of 9 eggs in the 1st clutch i got ALL lavenders, the 1st snake to emerge from this clutch was a SNOW!

NOW... the part that sucks... out of 8 eggs i got 7.1... for this clutch, unlike before i kept snakes at 75 degree temps. prior i used my "incubator" (heated wooden enclosure) with temps btwn 80-89 degrees and got PERFECT ratios or sometimes extra females... i think low temps = high male... i could be wrong but either way i'll be sticking to the method that has yielded the best results for me...

~ZF
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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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Z~
Couple questions.

Who did the BHB anery male come from and who bred the Lemake ax into it?

What is the backround on the female you used? Who did you her from?

Rainer the male i used came from you (Sulphur male to BHB Anery)

The female i got from Tom Agosta ,

now when you bred sulphur x bhb you got lavenders, ANERYS, and snows...

so i think your adult male is 2x het for Axanthic and anery and the gene was passed on in my male

i have 3 females from this pairing... a normal 2x het (poss. 3x het), a lavender, and an Anery... when they are all ready i think i'll see 2 axanthic/anery strains in at least one of these clutches as well as 2 diff snows and 2x homoZ axanthic/anery.

~Z
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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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Okay your right. I thought the BHB was used in the Tim Ricks strain as well as the Lemke. Now I am confused. We know the BHB and Lemke is not allelic. I wonder if BHB has two anerys(?). Because I recently heard from a third party that Brian Barzyk said the BHB anery is also a codom. I have to call him on this to confirm. I am just taking one persons word who advertised his female BHB as codom. I would rather hear from the horses mouth before anything else is said.

**i think low temps = high male...**

Not gonna happen. It's not an opinion. IF snakes were TSD (temperature-dependent sex determination) which they are not, then ALL of your clutches that hatched at ie. low temps, would produce all males, which yours did not. If it were true, then ALL of your clutches would hatch out ALL males ALL of the time, EVERY year, which they do not.

I've had clutches that were either male heavy or female heavy, but in the long run they will equal out.

My brother's children were all girls, all my children were all boys.................... LOL

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Not gonna happen. It's not an opinion. IF snakes were TSD (temperature-dependent sex determination) which they are not, then ALL of your clutches that hatched at ie. low temps, would produce all males, which yours did not. If it were true, then ALL of your clutches would hatch out ALL males ALL of the time, EVERY year, which they do not.

Kerby,

I am always high male. Most of the time I am either ALL males or 1 to 3 females and 5-9 males. EVERYTIME. THis has been going on for years. A clucth like Zennys and I would be happy to have two females...thats the norm for me anyway.

This year was the first time I had almost even clutches on two clucthes of eggs. Thats rare for me. I always have an abundance of males. Keep in mind this is out of thousands of eggs.

Now I am not saying that the eggs are temp related in any way but you mentioned that doing things the same everytime. Makes me think and wish.

Is it the temp of the snakes that you are referring to?

IE are you noting that keeping the male warmer/cooler affects ratio of sperm?
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

We are referring to the incubation temps of the eggs. In some species of snakes, as in humans, heat can kill sperm prior to breeding.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

If sex was temperature dependent (which has been proven that it hasn't) then you would be getting all males or all females. When I was breeding leo geckos (which are temperature dependent), if I incubated at 88 degrees, I got 100% males-all the time; not 9 out of ten. If I incubated them at 82 degrees, I got 100% females; not 9 out of ten. Inbetween 82 and 88 degrees I got a mixture.

I know that it is also possible that if you breed the same pair together that they could produce either male heavy or female heavy EVERY TIME YOU BRRED them.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

you prob. misunderstood me...

when i incubate at 80 temperatures i get perfect ratios or Hi-female... this is the only time i tried something new and didn't use an incubator temps were (in the low to mid 70's) and i got one female... not doubting you but if i changed one variable and i'm not satisfied with the results i'll just return to the methods i used prior where results were satisfactory... could it be all superstition, luck, speculation, assumption... YES... but to satisfy my thinking i'll continue doing what i have been doing... if i yield the same results with my current, suitable method i'll be convinced that it's there is no way to influence sex with temperature

i do realize that snake don't fall into the same categories as lets say turles, lizards, alligators/crocs... but they all share a common ancestor, in my mind if other reptiles are TSD... why aren't snakes in some way shape or form?

BTW... any updated pix of those Hypo X Ghost hatchlings??

~ZF
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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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**you prob. misunderstood me...**

Probably....

**when i incubate at 80 temperatures i get perfect ratios or Hi-female... **

I used to use a commercial incubator in the 1990's and it was set at 82 degrees and never flucuated and my sex ratio was still 1.1 in the LONG RUN. The only difference between the incubator and my now flucuating temps in my snake room is that it now takes longer for my eggs to hatch. When I was using the incubator they pipped at 60 days almost every time. Now they can take up to 70 easily. But the sex determination was not affected.

**not doubting you but if i changed one variable and i'm not satisfied with the results i'll just return to the methods i used prior where results were satisfactory...**

I would say do it a couple thousand times and then give the results, BUT even that statistic is just a bump on a nat's butt.

**but to satisfy my thinking i'll continue doing what i have been doing... if i yield the same results with my current, suitable method i'll be convinced that it's there is no way to influence sex with temperature**

I'm saying that don't be too quick to jump to conclusions on EXTREMELY SMALL AMOUNT of data.

**i do realize that snake don't fall into the same categories as lets say turles, lizards, alligators/crocs... but they all share a common ancestor,**

That is not correct in the least.

**in my mind if other reptiles are TSD... why aren't snakes in some way shape or form?**

Good question...

Why do some snakes give live birth (viviparous) and others lay eggs (ovaparous)?

Why do some lizards give live birth (viviparous) and others lay eggs (ovaparous)?

Why are some snakes and lizards asexual (parthenogenesis)?

Why do some reptiles have parental care?

Kerby...

BTW... any updated pix of those Hypo X Ghost hatchlings??
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

**BTW... any updated pix of those Hypo X Ghost hatchlings??**

And those are coming.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Also other environmental factors/ conditions may be at work, an associated of mine (lives minutes away) produced 1.7 hondurans this season with 80 temps maybe the weather and environmental conditions per state contributes ... again all speculation but WHAT IF

i was discussing with 2 people on two different occasions that it seems if one breeder has a bad year lots of breeders share the same results and vice-versa ... coincidence or environment...?

just things i think about i have no proof i'm not saying it is accurate but i just don't think everything is a simple as people try to make it...

~ZF
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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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Many, many species of snakes have been investigated to determine the mode of sex determination. Without exception, across all taxa studied in all snake families, it has been determined that snake sex is chromosomally determined. No environmental parameter has ever been shown to make the slightest difference.....Your results are from random chance, unfortunately.....

Brad Chambers

can u refer me to the research

i'd appreciate it

~ZF
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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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those studies are of little help. There is without question a genetic different between males and females. AFTER THEY HATCH.

The problem is, what happens before they hatch.

All in all, even after science has its say, reptiles seem to have a way of faking humans out. As in totally faking them out.

My old field advisor just wrote that desert torts can hold sperm for over twenty years, hahahahahahahahaha, yup the sun has finally got to him. He also wrote they walk from one mountain range to another. My guess is, only because some freek is following them and glued a box on their back.

Its simply sad, that all this crap has to be one way or another, and not tons of betweens. The reality is, most of this is are betweens. Cheers

Specific papers? I'd love to, but my own interest in this issue both waxed and waned over 20 years ago, when I was still in college. I was breeding geckos at the time, and questioned my major advisor on the subject. He seemed mildly amused that I would even ask lol....Even back then chromosomal sex determination in snakes was so well-documented that the textbooks treated it as a given. One close friend of mine did an analysis on the sex chromosomes of the massassauga rattlesnake as part of a broader field study, but that's the only specific research I have any DIRECT knowledge of. For specific studies, I'd query one of the profesional herp boards...

Given the above-I do admit it is possible that temperature or other environmental factors might have an effect on the proportions of male or female sperm produced. After several decades of breeding I've had my share of peculiarly skewed sex ratios in clutches!

Brad Chambers

I'm curious as to what studies (if any) have been done on how the environmental conditions of the father affect the ratio of his sperm.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

**Also other environmental factors/ conditions may be at work,....**

I think there may be factors there.
* Altitude
* El Nino
* Dry winters/wet winters

**i was discussing with 2 people on two different occasions that it seems if one breeder has a bad year lots of breeders share the same results and vice-versa ... coincidence or environment...?**

I had a really bad year once in the late 1990's (El Nino) and a couple of years later found out that a lot of other people had the bad results that very same year.........

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

I am referring to clutch success on this responce, not sex determination.

Kerby...
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Lonesome Valley Reptiles
www.lonesomevalleyreptiles.com
Specializing In California Kingsnakes

Once again, i have to agree with Kirby-among my herp-breeding aquaintances, when one of us has a particularly bad, or good, year-we usally all do!

Brad Chambers

First let me say, I have no idea if kingsnakes can be temp sexed. In all the bizillions of clutches I have had, my results are exactly like Kerbys.

BUT, I believe we discussed this a few years ago here on KS. Let me sum it up.

Kingsnakes may not be Temp sexed after the eggs are deposited. There is a possibility you can sway the sex ratio while the eggs are in the female.

You see, at the time kingsnakes deposit the eggs, there is already a fairly developed embryo.

What may be happening is, some(you) do not offer the female, a range of temps, so you are causing your offspring to be male high. I have always allowed lots of temp variation and I have never seen any indication of one sex over the other.

The problem here is, your playing with fire. To warm, and you have dead eggs, too low and whats the benefit, all males, hahahahahahahaha. One more reason to allow temp choices. Cheers

I think it's just coincidence. I incubated at lower than normal temps this year and produced more females than usual. I incubated my ball pythons at the same temps and produced more females than last year. Maybe it something to do with the atmosphere? Who knows? Some years you win and some you lose. BTW, nice looking lavs!

Brandon Osborne

hey Brandon ,i had similar results w/corns but kings were 180 out(opposite)im in a new house and closet temps were aver.77*F (74-80*)daytime,give or take and incubation averaged 72-75 or longer days ,well i have a load of male kings and lotsa fem corns,and my cals seem to be 50/50 Dunno!!!!!!!!!!!...Chris any how good surprize for you

A good surprise it was. My temps fluctuate between 76-82 and most eggs went 10-14 days longer than in previous seasons. I still have honduran eggs incubating that were laid on 7-12. Snakes will be snakes and nature has it's surprises.

Brandon Osborne

my last batch of eggs is a clutch of hondurans laid 7/12 also and still not piped LOL

The snakes in the pictures all seem to have small amounts of orange on them which would mean they are lavenders. Unless I misunderstood the post. Are the ones in the pictures suppose to be snows?

Jeff

Jeff,
you didn't misunderstand, the snake in the individual pic is one of the snows and you are correct you DO see orange.

now do i think they aren't snow cuz of the orange at the sides not at all, i think the "Sulphur" Phenotype is the culprit ... when i looked at the 1st one i said it looks diff but is it a snow or a light lavender, then more and more came out and none from the 1st clutch looked like they do... but then i looked and i had 3 that look identical in color to the ones in the 1st clutch so i thought ok these are the lavenders and the 5 with the pink markings on their heads and very faint orange are the snows...

why am i so sure... not SO sure but rainer's "sulphur snows" showed color and i really think it's because of the sulphur in them.

same snow (left head) and an obvious lavender (right head)

do you see what i see or do you think i just have 2 different looking lavenders, you have more experience with these than i do so you may be right...

i'll post more pix after they shed

lastly any pix of that hybino and that weird axanthic you produced

Thanx

~Z
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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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The snow Rainer produced was with the black and white axanthics, and it was white as a hatchling. It became more yellow with age. Very cool looking snow! If these are snows, it would have to be with the blue axanthics. You should be able to tell by looking at the eyes. Thats cool if they are snows! That would mean we could breed the sulf. into the axanthics and get axanthics with a little color??? Take a picture of there heads so We can get a close up shot of there eyes.
thanks
Jeff LeCompte

Jeff i think you're right in that they are all lavenders i looked at them in some better lighting and i'm seeing WAY toooo much color for them to be snows, what i don't understand is why they have PINK markings on their heads like snows? not sure if you've ever examined all your lavender clutches closely but have you seen lavenders with pink markings on their heads?

do u think i'm seeing something that isn't there?

1st clutch... all solid color heads

2nd clutch from same pairing... 5 pink heads 3 solid color... could it be just another variation or is something different going on?

thanx

~Z
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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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The heads do look very snow like. Lets see some more pics after they shed.
Jeff