Reptile & Amphibian Forums

how is it that all of us are able to buy and sell hatchlings that are essentially illegal to possess?

I was just wondering. People are always getting in trouble for selling aquatic turtles that are under 4", but not tortoises. I've read the law and it specifies that by turtle it also includes tortoises.

I think it's probably one of the dumbest and most outdated laws regarding herps. We need to be able to buy and sell animals that are under 4" in length. Otherwise, we'd mostly be buying wild caught reptiles, and that's bad for the environment.

Well, tech. it only says selling under 4 inches, which means totally legal to buy them. Also , loop hole is scientific reasons. And last the law is old, it was made back in the 70s when they did not know much about samanola, and all that. Its kinda inforced, but more aimed towared petshops china town, ect... to many people do it to bust a single person out.

It is not illegal to buy or possess a turtle or tortoise under 4 inches. It is illegal to sell them unless it is for scientific or educational reasons. It is not enforced really except for in pet stores. I heard some people were trying to get it changed. It would be wonderful it it was changed, it would be a big step towards the selling of captive bred rather than wild caught animals. Especially in pet stores.

I personally *agree* with the law so to speak, if they were to remove it and someone bought a 1 1/2 inch hatchling and that persons child put the animal in it's mouth much like what was happening in the 60's/70's I fear what new law would be developed to keep such things from happening again.
as much of a constraint it is on the hobbyists(including me) I'd rather have it there than have people attacking us and making it even harder to keep chelonians.

there are ways of getting around it.. like not selling, of course you would not make any money off the animals but you would help get more captive bred animals out to the public if that were your reason for breeding then you would acclompish your goal, but that is only one of a few ways to get around it.

What kind of stupid, horrible parent would allow their child to put a tiny turtle or tortoise in their mouth? That falls under the category of bad parenting, and I think that in this day and age we should see it and judge it as such. There are people out there that would love to say it's the fault of the person who sold the reptile because it is so tiny, but people have to start taking responsibility for their dumb acts.

If the kid's dog were to crap in their backyard and the child put the dog crap in his mouth, would the dog be persecuted for pooping small enough for a child to fit it in his/her mouth?

The law just doesn't make sense, and I would never support it except as a means of weeding out the horrible petshops and of course, the carnivals, china town, etc.

There are some local shops here that do in fact sell tortoises as hatchlings and have been visited by the DEC (or whatever branch is responsible for that). They were actually getting in trouble for some hatchling red-eared sliders that weren't even for sale (their adult sliders apparently had babies, so they have them in a beautiful display). The DEC couldn't have cared less that they were selling land tortoises at 1.5-2"

I think that the law should be taken away. I think that if there is evidence that animals aren't being treated well (or children for that matter) they should deal with that problem instead of instituting laws to tip-toe around the real problem.

The all Ohio reptile show was raided a while back and locked down, they went around and busted everyone with hatchling turtles. Then someone asked why the people with baby tortoises weren't being busted and they said "Tortoises aren't part of the 4" law" Just goes to show you how much these guys know, they don't even know there laws! And they must have nothing better to do if there going around to raid local reptile shows where its all hobbyist anyways. Ohio is horrible for other laws as well, as PIT tagging and all that mess. I use to love to keep n.a. woods, but i gave them up because i wasn't about to PIT tag them and have them sniffing around 3 times a year checking everything out! I mean the law is stiff in ohio and i wouldn't dare keep anything native but its just crazy when they have to go around and raid local reptile shows and not even know the laws!

Andy

RedoFootMan@yahoo.com

the parent would take some blame but the animal and the person who sold the animal would likely take most of it, sort of like with dog bites, child gets bitten, the parent wasn't supervising the child, but it was the dogs fault.. any thing that can be blamed on the herpetological community will be.

That's sick. I'm not too worried about it though. I still plan to breed my tortoises on a regular basis. I think it's important to do something good for the environment, and the captive propogation of russian tortoises is good for the environment. If we can't stop them from being imported in such high quantities, there won't be any left in the wild.

I think it's also a big more enjoyable from the human perspective to be able to watch your pets grow up. However, if it ever really came down to it, I suppose I'd be willing to raise hatchlings to 4" just to make sure I can continue breeding them.

the Salmonella factor im sure has decreased dramatically among Aquatic turtles that are now feed chow instead of chicken slauter house remains etc.
and(little) children shouldnt be handling baby turtles,ask the turtle,lol,housing turtles in child proof aq. etc.
and tell them not to lick the turtles til they are 4" its the LAW

I found some info on the web indicating that though the 4" law can be applied very loosely to cover everyone distributing turtles and tortoises, it is usually only used when connected to some sort of business (or when the animals are being openly advertised to the public, such as in markets).

They don't seem to care much about private sales between hobbyists.