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the caramel boa strain bred by Mike had been bred to Kahl strain.
Someone told me that yes in fact this has been done and resulted in NORMAL babies (het for both I assume). If anyone has more details hopefully he/she will add them here. So that really MAY say something re the difference of Kahl and Sharp.

My feeling several years ago re Sharp being some "t positive connected snake," was based soley on my work with BLOOD PYTHONS. In blood pythons some of the red is melanin based, and when you remove some black as seen in the caramel or t- albinos, the red is also changed from a deep maroon red to a brighter red, orange, or almost yellow. That made me think that even though the Sharp looks so close to the Kahl t- albino there MIGHT still be some not visually obvious melanin related pigments which accounted for the deeper red colors.

Linda and Ed's litter will be a great addition to the information pool, and will be eagerly awaited--will these animals look, normal, the same, or different?!!

Paradigm or Caramel from that cross to VPI caramel! If that does something I would greatly expand my view of like animals and include various caramel look alikes into the mix!!

What that means is we have a huge new pool of animals to mix and match to create shades of boas ranging from the most minimal looking caramel boa all the way up to the sharp albino!
Add these to Motleys, Jungles, Arabesques, Stripes, and their supers and we will have an amazing group of animals!!

Congrats to Mike for his efforts and bringing this to the table and good luck to all!!

I think it is great for all to stick their necks out a little and try and predict--that's where the fun is--no guts no glory!

And remember, in reality we know absolutely nothing about what we are talking about biochemically with any of these things--isn't there someone out there who wants to get a Master's degree!!

Tracy

work on Rat snake albinos in the test that determined one T-positive and the other T-negative when they had the same or very close phenotypes like the Kahl and Sharp.
I remember reading about the testing, and I think it was on your website. I was talking with another breeder this past year about doing similar tests in the Albino boas, an the breeder told me that they thought Dave had been one of the people involved in the Rat Snake tests.

There has to be some definate reason that Kahl and Sharp are different, asside from just not being compatible. Whatever causes Amelanism in the two mutations is likely different in each case.

I personally don't think that VPI X Sharp will yield Paradigms in the F1, I do think that the F2 Double Homozygous have a good chance of carrying a similar phenotype. Likewise, if there are DH Caramel Kahls, I think the end result double homozygous will share characteristics with the Paradigms.

"I personally don't think that VPI X Sharp will yield Paradigms in the F1, I do think that the F2 Double Homozygous have a good chance of carrying a similar phenotype. Likewise, if there are DH Caramel Kahls, I think the end result double homozygous will share characteristics with the Paradigms."

Not being argumentative just curious why you don't think they will?

I am starting to think all the T positive lines may prove to be different mutations of the same gene pair as well as the sharp albinos and they may all make some form of Paradigms some more extreme than others. I think the sharp line will clean up any T positive line. It just seems to make sense to me. Good conversation. Vinnie

Not sure why, but I have a feeling that it won't work in the F1, if it does I know what my Sharp girl will be bred by in the future!

The only reason the Linda/Ed pairing won't produce paradigm is if the trait is double recesive. Why make this hard?
I think they will get normals, hets and T (paradigms) with a varity of shades...Kinda like we see with albino retics....
The statics should be the same as breeding a het X homo.
My 2 cents...Time will tell. Someone keep these posts and say I told u so....na,na,na
Great dicussion everyone!

No Dave had nothing to do with that it was Dr. Bern Bechtal who wrote the book called "Color Variants."

yeah I wasn't sure, and I never got around to asking.

that Mike has not bred outside of the Sharp Strain at this point. I am sure as soon as he gets in from the Anahiem show, he'll be all over this so that everyone is clear as to what may or may not be going on.

Chris
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Chris & Alliey
www.bloodyleopard.com
E-mail Us

Chris, I was told someone other than Mike bred the Caramel type he has to a Kahl albino-not Mike--sorry didn't mean to say that Mike was the one who bred them.

the Caramel isn't common. If you talk to Sharon Moore she may know all the breeders working with them so you could track down the project if it did occur.

I think these just might work, Linda's female has had her shed yesterday..

I think one of the real things that will be a super bonus to this whole project is being able to create t positive albio type morphs with truly totaly unrelated parents. Think of the strength of these newly made blood lines that will be made. You can breed for "purdy" and strenght all at the same time...LOL...

Look at how many diffent morph types you can mix and match together and produce a leucistic ball with. We may all be lucky if we get to do the same with the t positive trait.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

Very exciting stuff going on in the Boa world!
Good Luck to all of you with these wonderful projects!

Tracy, you wrote:

>...even though the Sharp looks so close to the Kahl t- albino ...

>And remember, in reality we know absolutely nothing about what we are talking about biochemically with any of these things-- ...

This seems like a contradiction. A few years ago, I asked Dave if any albino boas had been tested for tyrosinase activity, and he said no. Has there been a test done on Kahl albinos so that we know for a fact that it is T-negative? I'd be delighted if that was true. Or is it true that we don't know anything about the tyrosinase activity in both Kahl and Sharp albinos? I'm out in the boonies so most of what I know about boa mutants comes from these discussions on kingsnake.com. Thanks in advance.

Paul Hollander

that the Kahl animal is a "t-"--we don't really know anything!!
I think that was just the default assumption when the first Kahl animals were found-four babies from Colombia I believe--they just seemed to be what was accepted as a "red-eyed albino"--remember back then we had no idea about any caramel looking snake or variation from the "classic" albino "look." It has stuck ever since, but no test has ever been done on them.

In the 2004/2005 season I bred my Caramel/Boawomen hypo Female. She was bred by both a normal very clean male and a 100% Het for Kahl Albino male. While breeding, I witnessed very little activity from the normal male. I did witness copulation from the Het Albino male a couple of times and he was already a proven breeder. The litter that I produced had many common features of babies from previous litters from the het male. i.e. Stripe tails and a reddish color pattern. All the babies were normals. I feel pretty confident that my het male did the job on my female Caramel, but of course I don't know for sure. I will have to do some breeding trails to find out.
I do not think anyone else has breed a Kahl albino into the Caramel line.
I hope this helps,
Steve

glad you shared that info! Were you able to keep some of the babies? Of course that would take a bit of breeding to figure that all out, but maybe a female or two could be bred by a Kahl male just to check if you come up with some albinos--I love doing these boas but it entails quite a bit of patience!
Tracy