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Categorically speaking, the H&C

FR Sep 24, 2006 11:44 AM

In the below thread about temp sexing, we again see science saying a defined statement. The person stated there is no possible way that this event can happen. Of course I have clearly ignored that.

You may wonder why.

With some things science is clearly amazing, except for defining planets. No really, its amazing. But at other times, its about whats happening here. Science confuses the horse and the cart(H&C) In many cases, science is telling an animal what it does by a single part. As in, this part is suppose to do this, So this animal has to do that. Its like a mechanic telling folks how a car will perform by looking at a single part. There is a possibility that its right, but its not likely. Consider, animals have far more parts and these parts are not exactly mechanically connected. In reality they are chemically connected, mechanically connected and the big one, behaviorally connected(and most likely more)

The reality is, science is suppose to explain why something happens, not predict what could happen. Particularly with subjects science knows so little about.

With reptiles, and snake are reptiles, science has not shown or expressed in any way, that it has any understanding how snakes work. Sure science can look at parts and classify what they think a snake is, but clearly thats not been very accurate as they keep changing that.(a good thing)(naming renaming) We the public, would like it far better if science simply admitted they do not know and are simply doing the best they can.(with this naming thing) That way we would not bother to think its right in the first place, and we would except the name changes as progress and not confusion.

So we understand science has a very difficult time simply naming or classifying reptiles, yet it thinks it can tell you what snakes do(how they function). Clearly science has never shown or expressed at any time an ability to do so.

The person below used the term, CATEGORICAL. Well to use it again, categorically, science has not shown any ability to understand how snakes function. Science has been categorically in error in most cases. It is weak in nearly all areas. Particularly in such areas of reproductive biology and behavior.

Or even base day to day behavior, as an example, we field guys know that reptiles often hang out in groups and in pairs, sometimes large groups. IT often appears these groups have a function, this occurs year a round. So as a novice, we call it social(to gather in groups for reasons of benefit) But science says snakes are NOT social. Why do they say that? OH i known, because the model they use for being social is based on buffalos(hoofed stock, african hoofed stock) or humans. Don't get me wrong, I clearly agree that snakes are not buffalos or any other hoofed stock. So there is no way on earth that a snake can be hoofed stock social. But wait, why do they gather? oh we all understand it takes two to tangle, and I am clearly not taking about that. Why do we find males together and females together and sexual pairs together at times other then breeding season? Is there some reason for this? of course there is, but WHAT? is there some benefit for this? there must be. But what? The are acting social. You know, reptile social, but science does not have any names for this. NONE. So they deny it happens. But it does happen.

If science does not even have the tools to tell you what this is called, then what gives you the idea that science knows all that much about the subject of reproductive biology? Science doesn't yet!

As you can see, the above is really a bunch of words to make you think about science(not me) and how much is really known. Not much.

As a person working on the fringes of science(behavior) over the last fifty years I have learned one thing and that is, science has not been all that accurate when it comes to reptiles. One think for sure, science has no handle on reproductive behavior or reproductive biology or any kind of behavior. Science has no successful history in this area. Yet this person says categorically what some are seeing is impossible. Ok, I am starting to laugh.

Simply put, it was non-biologist that figured out how to breed reptiles in captivity, it was non-biologist that have continued to lead in the areas of reproductive biology. I am not saying biologist are not smart, I am saying they must be prejudiced by an unstable base of knowledge. As they are wrong a lot.

But its really not about that, in this case, science is not suppose to tell you, what can or cannot happen. Science is suppose to explain WHAT DID HAPPEN. In this case of temp predicted sex, something is clearly going on, and the benefit of having scientists is, they are suppose to figure out what is happening, not tell us it cannot or did not happen. Particularly when something IS happening.

Now if that person would have said, There is no evidence of temp sexing with snakes, according to whats known NOW. I would have agreed, then I would have pointed out, that what is being discussed clearly shows something is going on that appears to be evidence. More clearly evidence to cause investigation.

After all, just a few short years ago, science said CATEGORICALLY no snakes are parthnogenetic. Yet now they are, my bet is, they were for a long period and that is not new. It was only new to science. I tried to publish that in 1976, but my peers said, it does not happen, but it does. They simply refused to look at the evidence.

With varanids, I can perdictably control sexes. But its after hatching. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm I have been perdictably doing so for over 15 years, I guess according to science I am just real lucky. I wish I could play the lottery with that type of luck. And in Zees case, hes just unlucky. hmmmmmmmm are you sure its luck? thats all I got to say.

Again, isn't it sciences task to define what luck is? Cheers, Rush lim(fr)

Replies (18)

BChambers Sep 24, 2006 01:56 PM

I'll agree with Frank and rephrase my statement: Categorically, there is no evidence thus far of TDSD in any snake, at least in the same way such is exhibited in other reptiles, such as chelonians, certain lizards, and crocodilians.

However, as I stated below, this in no way rules out other forms of environmental influences on sex ratio, from possible temperature effects on the relative proportion of male and female sperm, to more speculative effects of overall physical condition or even density-dependent factors. I'm the last one who would EVER claim that science as it stands now has all the answers, or even a single percent thereof! I just think that on the narrow question of standard TDSD, the book is pretty much closed on that. And if I read you right, you agree.

Frank, I KNEW you'd be annoyed at my post, but at least it had the effect of inspiring another of your trademark highly skeptical and interesting missives...

Take care...

Brad Chambers

FR Sep 24, 2006 04:48 PM

Thanks Brad. So what your really saying is, it doesn't happen in the way you think it happens in a few other reptiles. I say that, because very little is actually known about about that subject.

The reason I say that is, science is information. But for us, there is two basic types of information. One is applied, and the other of course is non-applied.

With these forums, most information is directly related to how its applied to our captive animals. In some cases, how it applies to wild animals then somehow back to captive animals.

I mention this because, TDSD reptiles have a common trait. As far as I know, they are all shallow or surface nesters. That means the eggs are exposed to a day/night temp regime. In captivity these reptiles express both sexes when incubated with a temperature range. They seem to only be sex baised when incubated at a constant temp. Which I believe they are not designed for. So how does the research relate to wild reptiles, not a captive condition? how/why is it actually of use.

Both snakes and varanids are deep nesters, which means their eggs are exposed to far less of a fluctuation. At least much slower. These two may be the odd ones out.

So to me, before I take the research on this subject to heart, I think more needs to be done. And far more in the area of the practical or applied.

For instance, at what point in the development of the eggs does temps have an effect on TDSD eggs. Then compare that to the exact same point in non-TDSD eggs. Not relate it to when the eggs are deposited, but to the actual egg development. We may find there is not such a great difference. Or maybe there is. Cheers

zach_whitman Sep 24, 2006 07:32 PM

Frank,

Sea turtles are deep nesters. AS deep as three feet. They are also totally temp dependent. When you insert a prove down into the nest to measure temps it stays almost perfectly constant despite surface temps ranging tremendously.

This is exhibited in the lab with constant temps and in the wild by recording ambient temps, nest temps, and surface temps, then collecting babies and looking at sex ratios. As a result on warmer years or cooler years, all of the millions of eggs over a huge range of coast some out very swayed towards one sex or the other.

There have been studys done with leopard geckos that show exactly when the temp dependent genes are turned on. I forget the results but it is known.

not that this has anything to do with kingsnake eggs persay, but i thought I'd throw it into the mix.

cheers

BChambers Sep 24, 2006 08:49 PM

Yes, the regimen in leopard geckos has been worked out in minute detail. In fact, incubation temps have a profound effect on a variety of physical parameters in the resulting hatchlings, not just sex. For example, low incubation temperatures produce females in this species, but high incubation temps produce much more colorful hatchlings. One can produce colorful females by taking advantage of the fact that sex is determined early in embryonic development. Eggs incubated at 60 degrees for 2 weeks, then at 90 degrees for the remainder of the incubation period, produce very colorful female hatchlings.

Brad Chambers

BChambers Sep 24, 2006 08:52 PM

I meant to write-eggs incubated at "80" degrees for 2 weeks, then 90 for the rest of the period......

Brad Chambers

FunkyRes Sep 24, 2006 09:52 PM

> Sea turtles are deep nesters. AS deep as three feet.

I don't remember what species, but I remember the pennsylvania equivalent of fish and game had a notice up about snake eggs often layed in leaf matter near the sides of homes. It was telling people not to destroy them because they are non venemous rodent eaters. I don't think those would be considered deep nesting.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

FR Sep 25, 2006 08:21 AM

Are they really deep nesters, I have never seen or heard of a sea turtle digging and going many times its length down a burrow. But I guess its more about scale(get it, scale, reptiles, hahahahahahahahaha)

I do wonder, what exceptions have to do with things. As everytime a point is being discussed, people HAVE to find a exception. Or a precieved exception. I guess that is great, considering it will be of no help in understanding the problem.

This brings up a tiny thought, Most of you judge data/information as right or wrong. I get the feeling its more important to judge it as helpful or non helpful. After all, when dealing with something you do not understand, how the heck do you know what right or wrong is?????

As that leads directly to the "Categorically" statement. When science(usually a naive biologist) does that, and it does that ALL THE TIME(they believe their own poop) All it does is box them into a corner they cannot get out of. As in, it seems to be a personal problem for many biologists.

The problem with that is, wait, I go in the field all the time with biologists, nice people i tell ya. But they have a strange habit, they tend to dismiss most all they see. They only record what fits their problem/question. I ask them, but what about that, and they simply say, what. These dimissed observations do not even enter their brain. Just one more reason I do not take their stuff seriously.

In fact, they cannot understand the difference between biology and ethology(dang sp)(the science of behavior, if you will) They do not understand that everything and I mean everything they see is BEHAVIOR. There are no exceptions to this.

How this effects you, once the heart starts to beat and the little snake pips the egg or membrane, its all about behavior, The biology(parts, only support the snakes behaivor) The problem is, most can open a book and read about parts(parts list) but do not have the foggist idea about behavior.

The reason I seperate behavior out of science is because, science did it. They do not publish behavior in science journals because it does not fit their definitions of science. But I get confused because behavior is a science. hmmmmmmmmmmm no wonder they have a problem.

How this relates to this subject, in nature, these reptiles whose eggs can be temp sexed in captivity, do not seem to have a problem with finding mates. that is, there still go on mating and laying eggs. They do not behavior or function any differently then other non-temp sexed reptiles. So it really becomes a discussion about parts. Yet the car runs the same. So, how important is that.

I guess if your hatching all one sex in captivity, that could be a problem. But we already know if you vary the temps you will hatch both sexes, hmmmmmmmmmmm problem solved. Move on to the next problem. Cheers

zach_whitman Sep 25, 2006 09:45 AM

Exceptions have a lot to do with things.

In fact exceptions sometimes teach us more then the normal occurance. You say that all temp dependent species are shallow nesters whose eggs experiance a range of temps, and that keeping them at one temp is unnatural. While this may be true for some species it is absolutely not true for others. Now maybe there is something totally different going on with all of them and you are wrong, the variable temp has nothing to any of this. Or maybe you are exactly right and variable temp has everything to do with this, but sea turtles have an entirely different method of sex detrmination than say geckos. I don't know, but the fact that the dicotomy exists is what allows us to question the proccess at all.

cheers

FR Sep 25, 2006 12:25 PM

I hope that works out for you. Seriously its fine. The point with much of our information is as I also mentioned before, is it appliable or not. Are you taking information for the sake of knowing something or for the sake of doing something.

Information for the sake of dicussion is tested thru discussion(what people expect here)

Information thats to be applied is tested thru the actual useage.

I take my information from the doing, to be actually used. Not to know and compare(discuss) to what others know, or think they know.

Information to be applied is sadly different from information for purposes of debate.

Sadly, field work and such as very little actual application at this time. Is not put to use or actually field tested. It tested by how it fits the current parameters of accepted writing. In otherwords, are the tee's crossed and the I's dotted. Thats why there is so much disaggreement between the folks actually working with reptiles and those studying reptiles.

You see, I do both and now everybody hates me, hahahahahahahahahaha Cheers

snakesunlimited1 Sep 25, 2006 12:22 PM

You mean a 18 inch female king laying eggs...

You can't complain about exceptions when others bring them up and then use them as a basis for your ideas. Just a little reality check for you FR. LOL I am enjoying what little I have time to read.

Later Jason

BChambers Sep 25, 2006 04:06 PM

I am in substantial agreement with you here-in fact you've put your finger on the main reason I didn't stay in the academic field lol....It was boring me to tears! Nobody seemed to care about the creatures themselves and how they function in interaction with their environment. I think the reason is that, once you broaden the investigation enough to become meaningful, the problem of how to go about studying it becomes so huge and complex as to be intractable! It does help preserve the mystery of nature.

Brad Chambers

FR Sep 25, 2006 09:50 PM

On the head,

Method of study is key. I think its very possible and easy, but then I was taught in the field.

The problem is, the methods need a major renovation and then the data will not relate to past data. Which as you know is the biggist problem.

Please discuss this subject more. As an outsider, I see the problems, but I am bound by them. Cheers

FR Sep 25, 2006 09:51 PM

?

zach_whitman Sep 25, 2006 02:07 AM

I'm a little rusty so someone correct me if I am wrong about any of this...Kerby what is that course teaching you, help me out.

Snakes have distinguishable sex chromosomes. I believe it is reversed from mammals in that the females are the heterogametic (XY)sex and the males have 2 of the same sex chromosome (XX) kinda like birds. So depending on which chromosome ended up in the FEMALES egg after meiosis that will determine the sex of the offspring.

In animals that are temp determined sex during incubation all animals have the same genome. IE all animals have the genes to be a male or a female it is just a matter of which is expressed. This is determined by the specific nature of specific protiens at certain points during developement of the egg. I don't remember if both sexes are heterogametic or homogametic.

So I think that its pretty clear that AFTER fertilization, temps have no effect on snake sex determination. However, FR is right in that there could be many other factors that detwermine what type of gamete the female is providing before that point.

This is completely unsubstantiated but this is what I'm thinking... Proteins have very specific denaturing points that occur within a very narrow temperature range. If a female is kept in either too low or to warm conditions the proteins ascociated with organizing chromosome division at meiosis could be favoring one chromosome over the other.

I am curious, for the people who have very obvious unequal sex ratios... what are your temps like during the winter and spring time?

buddygrout Sep 24, 2006 05:16 PM

wow you make some very good points. You must be a writer/ scientist?

FunkyRes Sep 24, 2006 05:37 PM

> So as a novice, we call it social(to gather in groups for reasons
> of benefit) But science says snakes are NOT social.

I agree with you - if science says snakes are not social, that is too broad of a statement for them to make, and is a statement they (at least IMHO) can not back up with the scientific method.

Scientists use to say once upon the time that humans from Africa had a less developed brain, another statement that they made that clearly was wrong and the conclusion was made from bias, not proper scientific methodology.

In these cases though, I think it is better to look at the "research" and point out that it is not scientific. Scientists may be saying it, but it is not scientific. Just like when scientists said american bison and domestic cattle could not produce a fertile bull hybrid, and then a rancher in Montana did just that.

My personal non scientific opinion is that king snakes either are social, or can be social. My two little boy kingsnakes that live together seem to be, they not only thermoregulate together (they are always together) but they shed at the same time too (maybe that's just because they have identical conditions?)

-=-
Here's something of interest to me - I gave most of my baby alligator lizards to my little brother down in the Bay Area and kept 3. I added a fourth WC hatchlings to my 3. So I've got 4 now. They are in the same terrerium. They stick together in pairs. Two of them are always together, and the other two are always together. They have enough faint banding now that I can tell them apart. Occasionally all four are together, but usually when they are out and not hiding, two are on the stick basking and two are down over the small UTH.

I have no idea why they have paired off like this. But it is interesting.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

ZFelicien Sep 24, 2006 10:36 PM

~ZF
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