Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have long been of the opinion that this whole UV thing is a scam designed to sell us $90 dollar light bulbs.

My opinion is that heat is what is important and that very little UV actually penetrates the thick skin of a lizard.

I was discussing this at the Anaheim show with a guy who produces thousands of beardeds a year and he basically agreed with me but added this very important caveat.

He said that he thinks "brightness" combined with heat is what is important, NOT UV.

I thought that this was brilliant and wanted to get FR's and other's opinion.

Keep em HOT and feed em a LOT and maybe add a some bright lights and they get all they need.

And some other pictures to show that all I use are floodlights mounted low over basking spots.


This was taken with the room dark, and the basking lights on, note how dark the room and cage is for that matter. I have since moved the basking spot a long time ago and reduced the bulbs from 5 to 3 with 4 in the coldest part of winter.

By simply going outside the cage and turning the few 20 watt flourescent light outside the cage in the ceiling on, notice the light intensity difference.

I also produced alot of beardies and eggs although most in a years time before losing interest in continuing breeding them.
Same lights, no flourescents, no mercury vapor, etc Just standard household halogen 45 watt floodbulbs.

I guess I am going to have to get used to this. U know, agreeing with people. I could not have said it any better, then the bearded keeper.

Excess UV is to be avoided, as with humans. A range of heat(not any single temp) allows them to achieve lifes functions. Brightness is one method how they decide what areas have useable heat.

For instance, they are attracted to the brightest areas, then stay or move away as needed. Once they achieve the heat they need(whatever that may be) They then move to more shadowed areas. As in Off lite or dark. They then gauge their temps and decide to either stay active, go down or move back to lite. With some species such as beardeds, they do not avoid open areas. Varanids only use open areas as a last resort.(why academics cannot find them)( they somehow confuse varanids with agamids, iguanids, etc) Varanids behave more like snakes. Staying in the shadows whenever possible. If they do use open areas, its very close to secure shelter. Of course giant monitors have nothing to fear, so they are more on the bold side.

That is a small example of a reptiles life, to choose temps on a minute by minute basis. And brightness of lite is ONE of many tools they use.

They have many tools to protect them from the damaging UV rays, like the skin you mentioned, and the semi-translucent eyelids many species have. Have you ever noticed in pictures of wild monitors, like any of the gouldi group or perenties, etc, they sit in the sun with their eyes half or more closed. A close look and you will see, they can still see through their upper eyelid.

So in most cases, I agree, those high dollar UV bulbs are not needed, not in the least. But then so are many of the other commerical products on the market.

If you check with long time breeders, the most common commerical products of benefit are, crickets and other insects, mice and other rodents, and suppliments such as calicum and vitamins. And cages, for those with no tools or that type of ability. Cheers

Has anyone ever done any experiments with heat emmiters and high powered flashlights or similiar to reverse the brightness=heat link and see the effects?

>>I guess I am going to have to get used to this. U know, agreeing with people. I could not have said it any better, then the bearded keeper.
>>
>> Excess UV is to be avoided, as with humans. A range of heat(not any single temp) allows them to achieve lifes functions. Brightness is one method how they decide what areas have useable heat.
>>
>> For instance, they are attracted to the brightest areas, then stay or move away as needed. Once they achieve the heat they need(whatever that may be) They then move to more shadowed areas. As in Off lite or dark. They then gauge their temps and decide to either stay active, go down or move back to lite. With some species such as beardeds, they do not avoid open areas. Varanids only use open areas as a last resort.(why academics cannot find them)( they somehow confuse varanids with agamids, iguanids, etc) Varanids behave more like snakes. Staying in the shadows whenever possible. If they do use open areas, its very close to secure shelter. Of course giant monitors have nothing to fear, so they are more on the bold side.
>>
>> That is a small example of a reptiles life, to choose temps on a minute by minute basis. And brightness of lite is ONE of many tools they use.
>>
>> They have many tools to protect them from the damaging UV rays, like the skin you mentioned, and the semi-translucent eyelids many species have. Have you ever noticed in pictures of wild monitors, like any of the gouldi group or perenties, etc, they sit in the sun with their eyes half or more closed. A close look and you will see, they can still see through their upper eyelid.
>>
>> So in most cases, I agree, those high dollar UV bulbs are not needed, not in the least. But then so are many of the other commerical products on the market.
>>
>> If you check with long time breeders, the most common commerical products of benefit are, crickets and other insects, mice and other rodents, and suppliments such as calicum and vitamins. And cages, for those with no tools or that type of ability. Cheers
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Jim Kuroski

website

He said that he thinks "brightness" combined with heat is what is important, NOT UV.

Mark,

As you probably know, I have been pushing this concept for several years now, although not on this forum since I don't keep monitors. I have long felt that light intensity is a critical issue for lizards.

A couple of important points, however:

1) When most people thing of brightness they are thinking of visible light. As it applies to lizards, there are some spectra of UV light that are visible, although these are not the wavelengths "pushed" on us by reptile lighting manufacturers.

2) Keepers cannot forget the importance of the inverse square law and the non-linear relationship between wattage and light intensity (and heat for that matter). In other words, a low wattage bulb likely provides A LOT more "brightness" to the lizard than a higher wattage bulb that has to be placed further away due to safety and/or heat concerns.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

With things like low wattage over high wattage. You know, european settlers made big fire sat far away, native americans, make little fire sit close, type of thing. There is far more.

To use all these complicated terms and such, is mostly not the best approach. What is a very good approach is results. This non-UV bulbs, approach is proven to work very well and in most cases far superior. As in, its not theory, its known and proven.

As In, I alone have raised many many types of reptiles, all without these fancy dancy UV bulbs, I have raised them strong, healthy, colorful, and they become parents to offspring of the same quality. I have done this thru generation after generation.

All that means is simple. You do not need UV bulbs as they are of no direct benefit. Oh except one. And that one is very important. Many newbies do not understand how to use any litebulb. So because a vendor told them to set up the cage with this and that litebulb, they do so. And surely its better then is they used no lite bulbs what so ever. So as a starter kit to understanding, its not all that bad, but not all that good either, its only a start.

As you learn, you learn to achieve success in captivity is not about one lite or one temps, or one hide(that hide thing makes me upchuck) You learn to offer a choice of the above, how they use those choices is how well they will progress.

In otherwords, a superior range of choices allows reptiles to achieve results close to the genetic potential. A poor rang will allow the opposite. IT will allow failure or minimum results.

All animals have a minimum and a maximum range of potential. To simply keep a reptile alive is very naive and very simple. Cheers

I surly agree that UV bulbs aren’t needed for reptiles, they are eye damaging for us and they are for them.
Furthermore high wattage are just as useless, Franks analogy on big fire small fire surly applies to captive reptiles, for any keeper learning to use energy the way it best serve your reptiles is far more important then any type of fancy bulbs.

Also let me correct you on this, feeding is about support, a steady supply of good foods is not the same as the all you can eat buffet.

Heat em and feed em! Really means to give them options of heat and a corresponding support. Heat em lot and feed em lot! Will most likely allow you to crash and burn your monitor.

I am working on putting together a rack for Beardeds.

I am thinking about heating the tubs from underneath and it sounds like I should put a flourescent directly above where the heat source is so that the lizards will be drawn there by the brightness and will then absorb the heat from the bottom up.

What do you guys think?

Beardies aren't really a reptile that's designed to absorb heat in the fashion.

I would have agreed with you if you were talking about monitors and a few other lizards. But for iguana, the UVB bulb is a must. There was a study done that suggest iguana cannot use the vitamin D3 through ingestion. They need it. Pluse iguana with metabolic bone disease showed signed of improvement with exposure to sunlight and UVB lighting. Kids with osteoperosis, when exposed to UVB light, showed a remarkable improvement in one study, only one of their arm was exposed to UVB light.

Iguanas are nightmares. Perhaps thats why most of us have monitors. Good ol miss Kaplan has taught you a lot.

This is a total shot in the dark, but maybe there is some relationship between iguanas eating veggies and needing uvb, where monitors may not need it because they are carnivorous?

I really do not want to offend you. Its just you make it so easy. And at the expense of the poor reptiles

Iggies are very similar to monitors, both use A LOT of heat, and other temps. When monitors are kept at the temps people vommonly keep iggies, they do fail and need all sorts of attention to make up for lack of proper choices. When people kept Savs in a narrow range of temps, like high temps in the 90's, people said, Savs cannot eat mice as the fur blocks them up and they die. They also said, rodents causes liver failure. etc etc etc etc etc etc.

The problem was not mice or consipation, it as lack of a proper temp range and high levels of dehydration. Consider, all captive reptiles, even mine, are always in some stage of dehydration, as we do not give them tools to stay hydrated.

I this manner Iggies are NOT different. I have observed(and caught/harassed) green and brown iggies from all over their range, from South America to the antillies, to mex. And they use heat, just like monitors. They also feed on birds and lizards, as well as plants, but in nature, they have to ability to attain the conditions to allow proper digestion and processing of this diet.

I have no doubt that if captive iggies had proper conditions(range of temps and humidity) they would not have the common problems they have now. I did keep iggies many years ago, and I did not have the understanding I have now, but even having a limited understanding of captive reptiles, my captives had no problem consumes birds and lizards(man did they love lizards) and did not need UV bulbs.

LIKE with varanids, healthy lizards lay eggs, that IS THEIR DESIGN, you have to shoot them to stop them. Yet the billions of iggies in captivitity rarely successfully reproduce. So your telling me, you iggie folks have conditions right?????????? Consider, laying eggs or to recruit, is done at the bare minimum of health, not at the extreme top end of health.

When you offer a healthy iggie a mouse or bird or lizard, it attacks and cosumes it with lust in its eyes. I have to wonder why? After all, I did not give any iggie, a, you should eat meat class, they known how to all on their own.

But I do agree, if under improper conditions, they will fail, but then most iggies fail(to live or achieve life events) under the methods they are kept now. Just like most varanids kept under petshop conditions.

Sorry to be so blunt, but does the torture of animals deserve otherwise. And don't go yelling at me, about how rude I am, how about you folks taking responsibility and looking at the animals, then ask them. If they have problems, they are YElling at you, something is wrong.

Again, those stinking UV bulbs, do not do anything, compared to sun exposure, they are not even one raindrop in a heavy rainstorm. You folks are getting the wool pulled directly over your heads by the producers of UV bulbs.

A major point with reptiles is, THEY LIVE IN A WORLD THAT EXCEEDS THEIR NEEDS, not in a world of one optimum temp or condition. With montiors or iggies, you do not have the right temps, until the lizard in question decides its too hot or too cool. These lizards are designed to bask and quickly achieve needed heat, not sit in a basking area or the sun(in nature) all day. They need to achieve needed heat(and that varies with the intented task) then quickly move about their business, which in the case of iggies is, to hang out in a tree, with a bunch of other iggies, over a stream. Or sit in the shade feeding on grass and chasing grasshoppers.

And if you do not believe me, don't get mad at me, TRY IT and see. AND KEEP trying it, until your iggies live, grow, reproduce and keep living, on a regular basis, as they are intented to do. Cheers

Cages or those kept running loose in houses in our environment where they do terrible.
If iguana keepers put as much effort and money into their $1 lizards as other keepers did they would start seeing a huge difference.

Im not offended.
I think its great to know that uvb is not necessary!
So you think we are supposed to just raise all of the temperatures instead of using uvb to "make up" for the lack of heat?
Are you familiar with the care of chameleons and do you think the same falls true with them also?

Its about understanding reptiles, all reptiles USE a range of temps and humidities. They move back and forth in those ranges, as needed. This is the definition of being a reptile. Mammals have a very small range of temps(internally) Reptiles have a very large range and its obtained mostly from the enviornment. Mammals use metabolism to create and maintain their needed temps(some mammals use a wider range, such as hibernationing mammals)

What your task as a keeper is, to allow a range to fit the givin species and individual. The real point is, WHAT THE HECK IS THE RANGE. Funny thing is, You do not need to know. All you do is copy nature. NATURE always has temps above what they use, and below what they use. They the reptiles, are expert at picking what they need inbetween those ranges. Your job is to allow the experts(the animals) to be experts. Its not to TELL THEM WHAT THEY ARE. Or to tell them what temps they are suppose to use. Again, its your job to let them just be them. It really is that simple.

The huge problem with humans and americans are amoung the most human, is we think we have to tell reptiles what they are, and other people what they are. Kinda why the world hates us. Sorry for the politics.

My problem with(the) academics is this very same thing. They believe their words are the definition of what these animals are, yet show a complete lack of expertise when keeping them. You see, their beliefs do not add up to results. So whom knows what??????

Yet they tell me how wrong I am, but I am seriously successful compared to them.

There is reason for this. I simply allow the real experts to be experts, and that is the animals in question. Then I make observations, the truth is, I do not need to know anything, other then let the monitors do their own thing.

I do lots of field work with reptiles. In a nut shell, all they do is move from condition to condition as needed. Kinda like a rubics cube of conditions, and they move from square to square. Sir, that is their life.

In captivity, we have humans who tell the animals what to do, then when the animals fail, they blame the animal. The definition of narcisisum(sp) Hey.

So no, its not just more heat, its often very much the other way, They need heat and cool, they need to choose between them in ways they understand. Its simple. Cheers

Sorry bout that, I must have just browsed over your original post a little too quickly and missed the part about the temp range.

blunt and straitforeward. And for not buttering up and making it all nice.

But please use common sense. If the iggie people were so good at keeping iggies, Then why do they import so many?

Consider, If they import 100,000 per year, and by bet it that is a low number. But its only an example. If ten percent of those reached adulthood and produced 20 offspring per pair. They would produce the origianl amount of 100,000. Thats if only 10 percent produced. Remember Iggies have lots of eggs.

Now consider if only 5 percent bred, and produced the same, then it would take two years to equal the original amount. They can produce for 10 years. So each years imports should and could produce 500K to a million offspring in their normal breeding lifes. EACH YEARS.

Now consider, that 100000 imports per year, is a year after year thing.

Simple math tells you, that those methods to keep iggies, however good you think they are, SUCK. As in really suck. If they were any good, then without question, within a very few years, THERE WOULD BE NO NEED TO IMPORT IGGIES. The reality is, if only 2 or 3 percent reproduced normally, there would be no need to import them. So why are they still importing them.

Now that same thing goes for Savs, niles, waters, etc, etc, etc.

My math is very simple, hey I learned it in the OC. It clearly points out one thing, SOMEONE is pulling the wool over your eyes. And pulling it so well, its darn funny. I wonder who that would be?????

What kills me is, you folks think or at least act like your smart, but yet, if you were, you would have no problem understanding that the pet industry, does not want you to successfully keep these animals. If you did, you would not need imports, you would not need most of the products out there. Understand this and understand this well, there is no better customer then one thats desperate. When your "pets" are sick and dying, most will purchase all sorts of product in an effort to save it.

Lets look at one, anyone of those Reptile type mags. They will have an articule of some reptile or another. You folks read it and it becomes gospel. The funny part is this. This only post articules that sell product. This goes in two ways, one, the articule sells mags. And two, the articule sells or supports add space.

To clarify that, they have to have the author use and support a varity of products. They arrange those adds around the articule in question. This supports the mag. Of course there is a wide range of this practiced, from blatant to passive.

The point is, iggies with or without UV bulbs are not successfully kept, Yes, husbandry has progressed to a point that a much smaller percentage do not die in the first month.

The reality is, all the products that are suppose to help your iggie live a normal life have done what???????? Remember, you can substitute Sav or nile, or indo monitor for the iggie.

So lets go back to me. I have no problem allowing 98% of females I raise to reproduce. I do not hibernate, I do not photoperiod or raincycle(which means I do not tell them to reproduce) I do not use UV bulbs or 90% of the commerical products out there. I simply allow the monitors/iggies/torts/snakes/turtles, etc, choices they know how to make.

I wonder how many iggies there would be out there if only 50% grew up and produced????? I would think on a normal grading system, under 50% is failing, 50 to 65% is passing, 65 to 80% is getting a B, and above 80% is getting an A.

Looks like very few are achieving a passing grade with captive husbandry. At least not with iggies and not with monitors. Cheers, remember, this is only food for thought. You know what thought is??? its the pastense of thinking.

How very true, been posting about this elsewhere but peoples just don’t want to see this, it seems they are programmed to consume the UV bulbs and other useless gimmicks.

The pet trade is a sick puppy, even my best friend a 30 year of hole seller once looked at me and said ( I don’t care if the lizard dies, I will sell an other and accessories too)

Importation use to be a gamble thing, sometime you lose a shipment other times you get a good one, of course we the consumers have always paid for the dead animals one way or an other. However sins the arrival of the products industries, importers are thriving, they are not interested in obtaining your CBB anymore, why would they?

Doing so will make them lose profit and affect there import relation, its much more interesting for them to make large orders, this allows to save money and gives them buying power.

How silly is it? well try to supply a hole seller and see for yourself, a handful of any type of reptiles will bring you less then what they pay for imports of the same specie.

Publishers and reptile mag’s will not publish you if you don’t sell products, to say UV’s are not needed or this product is useless is a one way ticket to oblivion, forget about being published not in North America or Europe. They say this industries is flourishing because of the products, maybe! But the animals are still dieing in numbers.

In fact it seems like we have made no progress whatsoever when it comes to import quotas, this can only mean we are killing as much today as we did decades ago, this regardless of the millions$ invested in veterinarians and specialty products.

Wow this sure takes away my pride of working with animals.

rgds
just needed to vent

That sure is a cute handfull of lizards you got there!

Iguana is not the animals you would want to have so many because they do need rediculous large warm enclosure and are consider to be very difficult to keep properly than most reptiles, and by breeding them what are they going to do with the offsprings if they can't sell them. These guys need a room size enclosure or a least a cage that is 6 feet tall, 9 feet long, and 3 feet deep (remember these are giant aboreal lizard so vertical hieght is important) and bigger ground space for ground dewelling iguanas like the cycluras (actually the latter is bred in captivity because no wild population is allowed to be imported into the country). That is why many people opt not to breed iguanas, although it isn't that difficult. Green Iguana are produced by the millions in Central and South American countries and for cheaper price than green iguanas bred in the US. And not only that males iguanas are not recommended to be kept together because serious fight will break out and one of the iguana may end up dead as a result. So what do you do if you breed them and have so many male offsprings and you can't sell them? The can't live together! It's not recommended to have more than one male together. So you see iguana are notoriously difficult reptile to keep. And they do need the UVB light. Iguana cannot make use of vitamin D3 they ingest. It's been tried before by many of the early iguana keepers, but the problem of MBD keep occuring...until the invention of UVB light bulb and the understanding of sunlight plays in the production of vitamin D3.

Paradon

No offence but you are propagating false of misunderstood information’s.

Of course that last time I betted on this forum I lost my shorts, but nevertheless I am willing to bet (just kidding) but seriously, let me check in my left pocket for change maybe I have enough to buy me a group of babies iguanas, then raise them up with regular low wattage incandesant bulbs just to show UV’s are not needed, don’t wary about them adults we love chicken at home.

rgds

Well, I can tell you now...your iguana will fail to thrive without the UVB light. I would love to make an experiment you, but for the animals wellbeing, please don't do it. There are a lot of excellent literature about why iguana cannot thrive in captivity without UVB light. You can check out this link! There a lot of infor about iguana with years of experience and result backing up the claim.
http://www.anapsid.org

Pleas I do understand what you are saying, but do not waste your time.
I flat don’t believe in the virtues of UV’s, not because I am stubborn or ignorant but because I have kept and bred many species without UV’s for decades.

You can only imagine all the controversy I got from a plethora of keepers, in fact seems like every time I started working with a new specie (uromastyx) the uromastyx breeders would say, well they need UV’s or they will fail. Or when I tried a new turtle, the turtle guys would say they need UV’s or they will fail. I herd this for all these species dracaena gyanensis, amevia amevia, stare torts, spyder torts, sulcatas, pardalis, spotted turtles, bug turtles, wood turtles, baja blue rock lizards, rhino iguanas, all monitors, all agamas, all tree dragons, sailfines dragons, crocodiliens and many I am forgetting, yet all did excellent and produced strong fertile eggs.

Last year I was banned (kicked out) a turtle club, because I disagreed with the big chief, this guy has been breeding these turtles (photo) for many years, yet his turtles nested once a year sometimes every tow years. I simply said that my females of the same specie nested 3 to 5 times each in a year time. Of course this was utter nonsense to him, but when I said that I used no UV’s whatsoever and kept them inside year round, he and fellow friends showed me the door.

The funny part was all the sick turtles in bins on the floor with all kinds of medications (tetra-cycling) but no heat possibilities.
I am sorry but my herp career is jam packed with such stories, what can I say, should I stop doing what works for me just to fit the mould?
No way, I work with animals not with keepers, if they want to turn in circles and fail over and over, to bad. I do not have this problem, I don’t care for what literature or miss Kaplan says about anything if it doesn’t concern me in anyway, and believe me it doesn’t.
rgds

Believe me...I'm not here to pull your strings. I know at least some turtles can get vitamin D3 from the food they eat and supplement, but believe me when I tell you that iguanas are different. If you take the time to read through Miss Kaplan's website, which is full of helpful info, you will know why iguana is generally kept with UVB lighting. And believe me...I know all about heating with iguanas. If they don't get warm enough their gut microbes that break down the plant they eat will cease to function and as a result, they won't be able to digest their food. I believe everyone that kept reptiles are familiar with the important of heat since they are dependant upon the surrounding temperature to function properly.

I don't disagree with your comment about heat and digestion. But the problem is, iggie folks for the most part, do not understand what heat is. You somehow think air temps and reptiles are important, So you offer air temps.

While air temps and mass temps have a relationship, Its in fact a very loose relationship.

Yesterday and Today I am at a local reptile show. So I get to talk to thousands of people. People from around here where its hot. If you ask them what the surface temps of the ground are comparable to air temps, most are totally lost, and that includes many academics, biologists, and game and fish folks.

Say, the air temp is 100F what is the corresponding surface temps and mass temps? Most add a few degrees, in fact here the surface temps range in the sun range from, 110F to over 150F. Now compare that too say an air temp of 40F, what would the corresponding surface temps be? Of course you would guess, something like 65F or a little more. The reality is, and sir, its a reality, as I get to check these very very often. The surface temps range for the 40's F to 144F. Yes, even with a sixty degree difference in air temps.

Whats important about this is, REPTILES DO NOT UNDERSTAND AIR TEMPS, they understand surface temps, mass temps and their relationship to bright lite.

Don't be fooled, the bright lite is only important in allowing the reptiles to find surface and mass heat. If the temps in bright lite are not suitable, they look elsewhere.

How it effects you iggie folks and your misguided MK, reptiles seek temps far above their actual needs, They try to bask as short a time as possible(inherent dangers of being in the open) They then perfer to maintain their body temps under cover of hard and soft materials, I.E. shade, bark, rock, earth, etc.

That you seem to think lizards are suppose to bask their entire active period, is a gross misunderstanding of reptile behavior and function.

The problem is so very easy to solve, all you have to understand is, reptiles do not carry around any sort of thermostat, they do carry around needs that "have" to be fullfilled. All you have to do is, offer high or low for that matter, until they do not use them at ALL, not rarely, as some needs are more rare then others. The reality is, ITS SO DARN EASY TO DO.
Your UV bulb approach is what I call a bandaid approach. You only fixing problems, without fixing the cause. IF you allow them to attain the heat they need, in THE MANNER THEY UNDERSTAND, you would have no need for UV bulbs.

BUT most humans, would rather do something complicated and dangerous to the animal, and has shown no long term success. Instead of actually understanding the animals you say you love. MAN I would hate to be loved by you folks.

SIR, its not something to brag about to keep a reptile alive in captivity, WE as humans should have no problem with that, we can put a man on the moon, or a hanger in south texas, but cannot keep simple reptiles alive. Wow, how sad is that.

I would think you folks would advance a little past stopping them from dying and on to, allowing normal life functions, Cheers

Green iguana don't make use of heated rock or heated thing since they are aboreal lizard, which prefer to spend the majority of their time high up in the forest canopy. Keeping the enclosure warm and humid is important since they are tropical animals.

Wow....just...wow.

Is it that hard to grasp the simplest concepts like a basking spot?

Oh, please! I know what a basking spot is...I just don't heat up the whole basking spot to 130 degree or 140 degree. Is it so hard to grasp the concept of hyperthermia?!?! Don't give that crap...monitor people aren't the only ones with brain!

No, you really don't get it.

These are surface temperatures....SURFACE TEMPERATURES! That means when you aim a basking lamp over a surface...the temperature of the surface is going to heat up. Go outside on a warm day with a temp gun and start checking the temperatures of everything that's exposed to sunlight. You'll be suprised.

I'm not a monitor person (never owned a monitor) I actually keep a variety of reptiles, and the reason I come here is because the methods they use DO WORK ON OTHER SPECIES. Hell, I've got a trio of russian tortoises that I'm keeping in setups extremely similar to what most people here keep monitors in (less arboreal, however). they have access to various basking spots, one of which reaches a surface temperature of up to 170...and that's the one they use most often. That's the one they bury their eggs under. The ambient air temperature in the enclosure goes from 60-65 degrees in the coldest spot to maybe 80 in the warmest, non-basking spot. Obviously they aren't going to overheat.

But listen, this isn't anything personal. I don't know who you are and you don't know who I am, so we should stop the bickering. The only reason everyone here is tossing all this good information at you is because you have to experiment with husbandry or else it will never progress.

Well, I am tired of fighting. I'm call it on this post. While I may not agree with what everything FR and yu said, I'm not going to argue with you. You are entile to your own opinion.

You have in your mind(and nowhere else) this picture of what an iggie is. This picture of yours is very odd because its only in your mind. You then make all sorts of rules about this and that, based on this picture of yours(and only yours)

I ask, have you ever seen wild iggies? how many? what sizes? You see the reason I ask is, I have seen thousands of all sizes, I have seen them over much of their range, from the antillies, to north central mexico, thru Costa Rica, Guatamala, Belize, Panama, Tabago, cancun, yucatan pen. etc etc. And my picture of them surely does not fit yours.

For instance, without question, the babies and youngsters hang out on the ground, low foliage, shrubs, vines etc. Generally near water or watered areas. They love lawns, kinda reptilian lawn mowers. In general, adults like the ground and low trees over water. The large males can be seen at times way way up in trees surveying their domain. I have also commonly seen large adult males basking on logs on the ground and on the ground it self.

On various islands, they are very common on the dry sides of the islands where there is no foliage over 15 to 20 feet. Here they use the ocean as an escape, and swim much like a marine iggie.

So while you have some made up image of what iggies are, I am afraid you not going to pull the wool over my eyes. As I do not give a hoot about what people are telling other people, when neither has any idea of what they are taking about. My suggestion is, get off your rear end and go have a look, the world is a wonderous place and contains many great things.

Sir these things I am bringing to your attention are not some interpitation of a book or articule, its not about who can create a better understanding through reading. Its not even about an understanding thru keeping. Its from ACTUAL OBSERVATIONS of real animals in real life. Cheers

everything you have just pointed out has already been answered. All the problems you came up with for why not to breed iguanas are problems that affect breeding most species of reptiles. They just really aren't that big of an issue. There are many more problems that arise by supporting the wild-caught iggy trade, and even the people that breed them in their native lands. Breeding isn't done because people don't understand how to do it. All this has already been pointed out.

Also, you mentioned that early (EARLY) iggy keepers had iguanas fail to live before the invention or the 'uvb bulb'. Did they bother to try anything else? There are so many other aspects of husbandry that are still missing to this day. This is for most reptiles (if not all) in general.

If you want to look at tests, there's plenty of tests on UV bulbs. The ones I look at you would never find on a manufacturers website though. The ones that indicate how low the amount of UV flourescent tubes produce is (low enough that you might as well use a regular flourescent), and the literature that suggests that mercury vapor bulbs can be harmful.

I don't think UV bulbs are necessarily a bad idea, just poorly executed and not necessary.

Well, since iguana are mass produced, like puppy mill, in Central and South America, there just isn't a fesible market for a captive bred iguanas in the US. You can buy those for a really cheap price from wholesalers that import IG into the country. Pluse they are noctoriously difficult animals to keep without a suitable climate like in their native range.

Miss Kaplan had try adding calcium and vitamin D3 into the food and feeding it more dog food, and the problem with metabolic bone disease was a common reoccurance...that until the invention of UVB bulb. And even feeding IG animals protein is very wrong. We have seen a lot of IG died in their 5 or 6 year of life due to kidney failure. When IG owners start feeding them only plant diets, we see a lot of IG that lived to 15 or more. I know of one particular green iguana of the guy who wrote "Ultimate Iguana Owner's Manual", I believe his name is James Hatfield, that was 30 years old when it died, and it was fed exclusively on plant. NO Iguana that are fed animal protein lived past their tenth year. And you can quote me on that! I'm not here to pull your strings...i'm just telling you the correct info. Head down to this site and it'll tell you everything you need to know about green iguana. Note, some species of iguana, like the Cyclura do eat animal proteing, but not the green iguana.
http://www.anapsid.org

Not to be rude or anything but, have you ever watched a wild iguana or studied some green iguanas in the wild before? Or are you just restating something you have read? If you havent seen any wild populations, then how do you know that they dont eat any animals or insects?

Just like desert iguanas. I have seen desert iguanas eat flies in the wild when they come too close. Others will say that never happens.

There were groups of researchers who disected the green iguanas young and old in the wild...and they found no animals inside there stomach, only leaves that they eat. If you go to that site, www.anapsid.org, and read everything, you will know. And it's been proven so many time that iguanas fed on a diet of only leafy greens and vegetables will live a long happy life. Iguanas that are fed animal protein will die of kidney failaure in only about 5 or 6 years. Iguana can live to be 15 or more if fed and taken care of properly.

OK believe what you want. I guess there is no sure way of proving it both ways. You could be safe and not sorry. Or try to test it and maybe fail. Or you could pass with flying colors. Either way you could fail just because of poor husbandry. If only the lizards could talk. hahahaha. That would save alot of time, words, and lives. hopefully.

cheers Paradon

You are like a machine just regurgitating something you have read, saying "we've seen" this and that. You must know that not everything you read on the internet or in a book is true. Anybody can post or write anything they want. Especially on a topic such little information is known. It is our job to weed through all of the bull and keep the bits of information that make sense. You need to decide what makes sense and what doesn't.

People are offering you advice and opinions from many many years of hands on experience and you disregard it with the blink of an eye, just because you have read otherwise. Some of us would consider that foolish. Why don't you get a couple of iguanas and do some experimentation and tell us what happens. Ms Kaplan is not Jesus.

Melissa Kaplan has done relatively little for the reptile industry besides concluding that horrible husbandry techniques are horrible. She has never given out info for great husbandry techniques.

If everyone just did things 'by the book' the reptile industry would never have any forward progression. People need to experiment and open their eyes to knew things. Books are good for somethings. They have interesting pictures Seriously though, if you have no information from which to start, a book or website can help, but that should only be a base to start with, not gospel. You should always experiment with offering different temperature options, different humdity options, etc. Sure, it can be a risk, but it can mean the difference between your reptiles just barely living from day to day, and thriving.

I wonder if anybody offering advice here ever kept iguana, or has kept it for 15 years or more. I sure am a proud owner of an iguana, and for your info iguana need a very large enclosure also, maybe even larger than monitor lizards. That's why I brought up the point. Miss Kaplan has kept many, many iguanas in her life time. At one time she had 22 of them. So I can't just dismiss her info...not because she said so, but many iguana keepers has had the same type of experience she has had, also...that iguana seem to need UVB and can't make use of vitamin D3 added to their food. They need either sunglight or UVB to produce their own vitamin D3. This has been the experience of many iguana keepers. So you want me to believe someone who has hardly ever kept more than one iguana? I don't think so. I know what you saying about weeding through info, but I blieve Ms. Kaplan because I think she's a smart woman and has many years of experience working with iguanas to back up her claim.

If its not a problem for you to get those uv bulbs, by all means use them.

All I am saying is that they are not needed, and yes iv kept iguanas, in fact we get them all the time from neglectful keepers that brings them in terrible conditions. Those with sever spinal damages are euthanized and use as food for crocs or monitors and pythons.

So called experts will attribute MBD to the lack of UV’s however I know its all about heat and hydration, then its about food and yes they need protein a lot of it.

So when I hear such nonsense about them being exclusive vegetarians and needing the UV’s I really think it’s a step back for herpetoculture, these peoples simple don’t progress. You’d be amazed on how ignorant some of the top herper’s are!

But feel free to gobble anything you want, its your animal and your money.

If you go to that site, www.anapsid.org, and read everything, you will know

Sorry, but if you want to know, do like jobi said... Buy a bunch and do test. After that, you can tell you know.
Justin

Wow! Sorry but i don't know where you take your informations. You seem to talk about something you don't know anything about.
First, iguana can live and grow (don't know about reproduction so i don't want to talk about something i don't know)without any scrap UV bulbs or neon. Second... in nature, iguana travel maby 100 meter in a day(if the jungle is on fire Hahahahaa!) but what about monitor? So in my opinion, iguana can live really well in a small closet but monitor do need and deserve a big cage.

Look at all the mbd case you see. Everytime you see mbd there is poor husbandry. If you like you want to focus on UV, it's your choice but please don't say iguana NEED it cause they don't.
Have a good day
Justin

I had an iguana, impulse buy, stupid mistake. anyway. I bought her from a petstore when she was about a foot long. first few months of her life were in an aquarium(stupid yes i know). I finally moved her into a larger cage never even heard of uv bulbs till i read an iguana book. I bought them, they burnt out in 6 months and i never replaced them. I had her from 1994-2002, and had to get rid of her because of space issues. She was completely healthy, ate like a champ. She actually would come out for a while and guess where she went for first. straight for MEAT. catfood. not saying CATFOOD is good for anything besides cats, but thats the first place she went when she got out. righ tto the cat food dish. and then would make rounds to eat dry dog food in the dogs dish. She never had any problems, never went to the vet once in my care. She grew to be about 4 feet long. she had her staple diet of veggies but always had to have catfood, and had to crap in the bathroom on the cool tile floor next to the toilet. prime example of a iguana almost never having those crazy overpriced bulbs. and as of i know right now, she is still alive, with her new owners so that would make her 12 years old. So with my experience with one iguana, she has lived a full compelete life without uv bulbs.

People think they need UV bulbs and a completely vegetarian diet because they don't understand their animals.

Has anyone keeping an iguana ever stopped to think that maybe the reason why they aren't able to use d3 given to them in their food is because they are in otherwise very poor condition? With the temperatures they are commonly kept at, I'm suprised they can even digest vegetation. They are also almost always dehydrated to the point of having severe kidney disease.

The point is, if you keep an iguana in a dry, poorly heated enclosure, and feed them a diet that is usually severly lacking (especially of variety and protein), you're going to run into major problems. It's not the lighting.

Here's my main problem with the fancy UV bulbs on the market. I don't care if someone's going to use them, but here's something I see all of the time. People get so sucked into the lighting craze and every other stupid craze that comes out, that they let the basics go right down the crapper. The basics meaning CHOICES. Reptiles need choices of temperatures (and that doesn't mean a narrow choice of warm to slightly warmer....this means room temperature to very hot). People seem to take it as a sign of a healthy reptile if they are out basking all day, but that's not true. A healthy reptile will hide most of the day (except for certain species).

Seen prove that wrong, why is it the healthiest and most colorful, largest iguanas never see sunlight or UV bulbs? I guess I should specify those that are kept by people who know what they are doing with reptiles.
Iguanas need UV bulbs in captivity as much as any other reptile, in fact I remember a study done with chuckwallas, they used groups with sunlight, without sunlight and with UV bulbs, without sunlight or any light, all had the same temperatures except those that had sunlight were exposed to more natural temps (sometimes cooler) as this is a byproduct of a screen top cage, all fed the same amounts, some given extra supplementation, some not.
Throughout this study, blood tests were taken over a few years time every month. The lowest calcium D3 levels were in those exposed to sunlight during cooler days when their metabolism was effected. There was no difference from UV exposure at all. Heat and food was what mattered to them, not UV.

Very interesting to know!
So selling people UVB bulbs is like selling bottled water.

Water is a necessity though, bottled or not.

I'd say it's much more like selling bottled urine.

I knew someone would take that the wrong way. I was saying that water is necessary(as is a source of light-in this case a bulb), people just found a way to bottle it and charge a ridiculous amount to people for something they already get basically free.
As with the lightbulbs, marketers have found a way to get someone to buy a 60 dollar lightbulb as opposed to one they could get for 1 dollar, by "adding a benefit" to make it special when its totally unnecessary(like bottled water).

I get what you're saying now. Makes sense to me.

the water comparison is good, but not great. All lite bulbs produce UVA and UVB, UV bulbs, merely do nothing but use a different label or use a material that reflects the same UVA and B produced by non UV bulbs, down, with bell shaped bulbs. All bulbs us coatings to modify the visual aspect of lite. You may not buy them if they make things look funny. So they try to keep them in a normal acceptable range. Of course, some yellowish, somebluish, some reddish, etc.

So like water, You pay for water service at home, you then are told it sucks and tastes bad(in many areas it does) You then have the option of buying one of a zillion types of filters, or you can buy bottled water that costs more the gasoline.

With litebulbs, you can buy a normal lite bulb, that does indeed produce the UV mentioned, Or you can pay more to have a label put on it. Or you can go outside, which has a zillion times more, and its free.

I guess the big difference is, we have to drink the water(taste) we do not need the lite from the bulbs, it should be about the monitors, or other reptiles. Its not, its all about you.

The question of UV is not really about if its needed at all, or not, as most want to make it. But much more accurately, how much if at all is needed, and how much causes harm.

I have tested keeping monitors with no lites what so ever in the cage, and they can LIVE(as in exsist) fine. But they surely don't appear to thrive or like it.

With normal bulbs of many types, we have monitors, thrive to a superior degree. I hope I can say that. And that is compared to any lite bulb and apparently the sun. As they say monitors are not suppose to grow so fast, lay so many eggs, and continue to grow while doing so, and lastly live as long or longer then others kept in any kind of conditions. And this has occurred here without the use of any sort of UV bulb.

So to clarify, I do not care if it(uva uvb) is needed or not, under normal conditions of a cage a litebulb of any old brand and type(and I have used many) and normal other captive conditions(ranges of temps and such) Monitors commonly prosper. Cheers