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I read numerous post about Big Mikes new boa, and all of the genetic theories that it could possibly be. My question though is, if sharp and boawomen equal paradigm, then maybe VPI carmels plus albino equal something also? We all know that the kahl and sharp bloodlines are incompatible, so maybe kahl plus vpi carmels will do something? If anyone has any insight please share!

Just me rambling.

Chris Nicholas

well the theory behind the sharp and boawoman (correct me if i'm wrong) is that they work on the same gene or they are somehow related. That's why when a sharp and boawoman were bred, they produced all paradigm.

no reason not to try kahl and t . if that doesn't work out then you can always try to make a homozygous kahl and homozygous t .

i think the greatest thing about the paradigm boa is that it stimulates the imagination of what else could be produced and it urges breeders to try new things and think outside of the "box"

At least on the part about folks trying things they would have never though to put together.. Who know what would happen with some of the traits that don't seem like they would blends so well.

Couple off of the top of my head.. motley arabesque (might have been tryed??) motley jaguar, that couldn't be bad looking..
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I remember something about Jeremy having a wierd litter with the VPI line, was the Motley het for Kahl? I remember he said something but never followed up...
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Now that you mentioned it, I remeber something odd, but no follow up. Maybe there is a relation between kahl and vpi.

Chris

something. But also, no follow up.

Weren't the two T-plus babies from the Motley X VPI T-plus female? If so I'd attribute it to Parthenogenisis. However at this point, I won't RULE OUT the possibilities.

Why would you attribute it to Parthenogenesis? Especially given the fact that there are plenty of babies clearly produced by the Motley Father. Parthenogenesis has been speculated upon many times in Boas but NEVER proven in any Boid.
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for Homozygous females from a Homozygous dam, where the father shows no reason of being a het.

If the Motley sire proves NOT to be het T-plus Albino, how else would you explain it?

to be partho whatever is because I am positive there were Motleys in that litter..if it were partho, there would not be Motleys.

Since the "impossible" was proven "possible" by Mikes Paradigms, then why can't there be a possibility that Jeremy's litter could have been produced from a similar compatibilty between the VPI T pos line and Kahl?
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but isn't each baby its own entity? Why can't one baby be born out of a litter of 1000, that was from parthenogenisis.

Impossible...Possible...Impossilbly Possibile...Possibly Impossible...Probably Impossible...Probably Possible...definately interesting!

It has been proven once in Burmese Pythons. Genetic testing was done on the embryos from this female and they were found to be genetically identical to the mom. Even given that I still don't think that was the case with Jeremys breeding. Sometimes weird things happen with no explaination. Vinnie

Meet The World's First Self Cloning Python
Reprinted from The Herptilian, the newsletter of the NorthWest Herptile Keepers Association, July 2003.
Originally from Popular Science, June 2003.
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A sleepy Burmese snake named Mary at the Artis Zoo in Amsterdam has become the first known python to clone itself. Reptile curator Eugene Bruins announced this spring that nearly 40 percent of Mary's unhatched eggs harbor tiny embryonic replicas. Several snake species are known to reproduce without sperm, a process known as parthenogenesis, though the phenomenon has never been documented in pythons. Stranger still, the embryos are all female, a first for parthenogenic snakes, whose chromosome setup typically produces males only. The Ar:tis Zoo plans to hatch the eggs to see if they inherited Mary's cloning powers. Meanwhile, Mary is being kept far from any male: A single conjugal visit and "the whole special thing would stop at once," Bruins warns. For more information contact Artis Biologist Eugene Bruins at bruins@artis.nl.

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Copyright © 1998 - 2006, Colorado Herpetological Society. All rights reserved.

Parthenogenesis produces only males? I did not know that. How does that help the species procreate then? It seems to me that, and I am no expert, there is at least one species of lizard that is exclusively Parthenogenic or am I just ignorant of the facts? It wouldn't be the first time or the last.
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Yea I think that part of the article is wrong. I think it was supposed to say females??? I did a little more research though and actually found the research paper that discussed the genetic testing and what exactly was done and it was found that this female did produce by Parthenogenesis. I am not sure myself but I think you are correct about the lizard species but can not be of more help on that issue at least not now since I'm at work lol. Vinnnie

She REALLY wanted a man and couldn't find one, so she made her own. LOL I could not resist.

I think it is a typo.

Kathy

found this.... thought the part about gynogenesis interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis

If parthenogenesis has been proven in pythons... then this could be possible as well.

Kathy

colubrids (kings, garters and perhaps other types), rattlesnakes, pythons. Under the right conditions, it may happen more than we think. Just because we do not see it much in captivity (or do we?) doesn't mean too much as far as describing what happens in the wild.

In captivity it is likely an uncommon event. I mean, we keep snakes in a very small range of variable conditions.

that produces through parthenogenesis only as well.

>>Parthenogenesis produces only males? I did not know that. How does that help the species procreate then? It seems to me that, and I am no expert, there is at least one species of lizard that is exclusively Parthenogenic or am I just ignorant of the facts? It wouldn't be the first time or the last.
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There are two types of parthenogensis.. the type everyone tends to be familiar with that produces all females and the other (automictic parthenogenesis) which produces all males. Here is a good article: http://home.pcisys.net/~dlblanc/articles/Parthenogenesis.php

I have an abberant patterned eastern kingsnake that hatched this summer that is likely the product of parthenogensis. The mother hadn't been with a male for 7 years (possibly longer), but laid a viable clutch this year. 10 eggs were laid, 6 were good, but ultimately only 1 made it to hatching (female).

.

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PHWyvern

First off, I do not want to debate this, nor do I want to get pulled in to a lengthly forum discussion, but ...

I am not convinced that the Kahl and Sharp strains are incompatible. My only basis for making this statement is that I am aware of only 1 isolated breeding (I believe a Het to an Albino; I forget which strain was which). I talked briefly with Brian Sharp at one of the past expos, and he was not aware of other "test breedings" at that time. ONE single "test breeding" is hardly sufficient to prove what has been accepted as common knowledge.

Just my opinion and position until someone can conclusively provide other examples.

I really think a SECOND "test breeding" of an Albino x Albino that produces a litter of all Normal-appearing (DHs?) might enable me to put this to rest in my own mind.

I have not talked specifically with Pete on the subject, so he may have additional info to share. I will be meeting with him at Tinley Park (Chicago), so I will try to learn more from him at this time.

I certainly hope that this does not start anything other than further validation of the incompatibility between the 2 strains.

Now I have gone from speaking "very softly" to publicly displaying my curiosity to the boa world.

Be Gentle ... Bill

I agree with what Bill wrote. I don't think that I ever heard how many babies were in the albino x het albino litter, and that always worried me a bit. Without the number of babies, nobody can figure the odds of getting all normal babies from such a cross. All normal babies from a Kahl albino x Sharp albino mating would end all doubts.

Paul Hollander

I had this very discussion with one of my buddies at work. I had the same stance as Bill. I had thought that only 1 breeding was done and i have not heard of any other. I would love to see a sharp bred toa kahl to verify this for certain.

I dont understand why no one has done this if it truly has not been done before.

Worst case is that you get a litter full of 100% double het for both strains. I would think you would have a pretty easy time getting rid of the litter especially since they would all be 1005 hets. Lastly if you did end up with a litter of double hets ... wouldnt it be just as interesting to see a sharp/kahl albino?

I would be glad to do the breeding if someone is willing do donate a kahl and sharp ... Ill wait.
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- Jason F.

Thanks, guys ... this has bugged me for years, and I have been reluctant to voice this on an open forum.

I think this is a great project for someone; I don't have the animals. Not only could one prove or disprove the compatibilitiy of the 2 strains, but if the entire litter comes out to be Normal-appearing, they could go on to determine if these are actually Double Hets for the 2 genes.

Thanks again ... Bill

If this proves to be true, that in fact they are compatible, does that help the Kahl Albino project and hurt the Sharp project? I think it would clearly hurt the Sharp bloodline but would it help the Kahl Albinos? Just thinking out loud here...
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I can see what you mean about hurting one and helping another.

The larger benifit would be the great increase into the gene pool which would help avoid many of the problems that tend to occour in the kahl bloodlines. I am sure just as with all other areas you will still have those who will breed only known sharp or kahl originating strains just to tap into that market of sale.
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- Jason F.

Why would it hurt either?

Russ Lockenwitx
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Russ Lockenwitz
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Since we know that Caramel X Sharp yields 100% Paradigm in the F1, breed Kahl X Caramel. If you get 100% Paradigm in the F1, it is probably compatible if you get normal DH then it is not.

If you get Paradigm from Kahl X Caramel, then you would breed Kahl X Sharp to prove it or not.

I think this is a much better action plan than directly Sharp X Kahl.

Because if Kahl X Sharp are not compatible, you really couldn't sell the offspring. They would end up getting crossed into Kahl and Sharp lines, producing possible hets that would really mess with projects. Someone down the road would buy an albino they thought was one strain to breed it and not get albinos. I think this is why Sharp X Kahl hasn't been done. No one wants to spend the time to have to destroy a litter.

Speaking of which, what happened to the offspring from the Sharp X het Kahl? A bunch of Het Sharps 50% het Kahl could really have messed with things.

Since there are only a handful of Caramels in the world, nobody is going to waste a breeding of one to a Kahl Albino to prove IF it makes Paradigms or not knowing that breeding it to a Sharp does.
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who asked why I'd want to pair a Caramel het with a Sharp? Just jokeing with you Jeff, lol.

Not yet, but someone will. Once there are more Caramels out there I could see someone trying a male to a Kahl female after they had used their male for the breeding they really wanted.
I think it is more likely than seeing Kahl X Sharp, just because of the possible outcome and wasted breeding (then what to do with the offspring).

Kahl and boawomen caramel have been crossed I believe and yielded 100% wild type offspring 100% het for both. If that were to be true I really would doubt that kahl and boawomen caramel would be compatible. I do however feel that other "lines" may be compatible, but once again thats just my opinion.

Since you have most of the information about all of the lines, predict what offspring would occur when you cross a duck with a cow? How would the melanin be affected if the duck were a mallard but the cow was calico?

Chris Nicholas
formerly known as Chris Nicholas

just having fun here.

Tracy did ask about the Caramel X Kahl breeding. One person said they bred a Caramel female to both a normal and a het Kahl male, and think the het was the sire. However no one came forward about the Kahl X Caramel. I never heard of it before Tracy brought it up.

Something else may be compatible, there are a lot of mutations out there. What is your opinion though?
If the Kahl X Caramel yielded DH, then would you say Kahl and Sharp are not compatible. I would think that if they were the results would have matched the Sharp X Caramel.

I just bought 2.17 paradigms from Big Mike and I am going to be King of the world, and I am sure once my litters are born, Chris Gilbert will post all of the information, before I do!

By the way how many litters did I have, how did I get my animals, where do I live

Stayed tuned the answers shortly!

Chris Nicholas
I mean Chris Gilbert,
no I am Chris Nicholas, no
Chris Gilbert

I'm just having fun with this. I like genetics, and this stuff has my interest. I'm not out there against anyone.

Congrats on the Paradigms!

relax kid, no harm done just make sure when you start rambling you think before you speak, I really think your passion for the animals is great, but NO ONE has every single answer out there, and remeber every breeder may not want every single piece of info flashed all over the net!

Keep up the good work!

I'm not claiming answers, just putting out ideas! Thanks though

I hope to make it, and would like to meet you, and your Motleys! Just need to figure out a few transportation details.

everything:

DROP BACK 10 YARDS AND PUNT!

What else you possibly do with a dialogue like this one?

Bill

n/p
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...for my good buddy Chris Nicholas. He has been under a ton of stress lately as he has been practicing for his upcoming annual Hoola Hoop competition, funny to some, but very serious to Mr Nicholas!

As far as the Kahl X 'Moore' Caramel breedings.
Steve did say he ran a Het Kahl Strain male and a normal male through, but was very confident that the Het Kahl did the job as there was not much if any action from the normal male. I know Steve and do not think he would mislead us on that.
I also was told that Sharon bred her Kahl Albino to her Caramel that yielded her 1 still born normal and a group of sluggs. She could better elaborate on that.

Good luck Chris...shake those hips!
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Hoola Hoop, sounds fun, I personally go for the Limbo!

one person here, that can breed two normal boas together and get a T positive Jungle that is het for Luecistic....now that takes skill, or something...lol

;O)
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...black eyed or blue eyed Leucistic???

Hhhmmmm??
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eyes, mom did not either, but it's probably parthenogis....
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glad no one takes things to seriously. Need to lighten the mood at times.

PS: Does the Leucistic glow in the dark?

n/p

The difference between Hoola Hoop and this rat race for genetics is what ?

:rolleyes:

I'll bring my Pogo Stick and Chris and I can get down!

Big Mike ... you can bring your Stretch Armstrong and relieve the stress for Chris and I.

I dont see how the 'bad' outcome of 100% het sharp and 100% het kahl is all that bad.

Working with albinos you are bound to have to get rid of hets at one point or another. I could only assume it is easier to get rid of 100% hets as opposed to possible hets. Having animals that are both 100% het kahl and 100% het sharp should in theory double your chances of making the sale to someone in the market for a het. You not only have the people looking for sharp hets, but also kahl hets.
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- Jason F.

Someone breeds their Sharp to a DH Kahl Sharp.

They have Albinos, the Albino offspring are Sharp 50% het Kahl.

I buy one, say to breed to my Leopard, and the Albino ends up being het Kahl. I produce DH Albino Leopards, that I think are Sharp strain.

However some are het Kahl. Now I breed those babies together, and one pair is actually TH Sharp Leopard Kahl. I get an Albino Leopard that I think it Sharp, and sell it as such. I have no way to tell if it is Sharp or Kahl.

The buyer breeds that Albino Leopard to a Sharp Sunglow. He should have a litter of Sharp Albinos and Sharp Sunglows het Leopard, but instead he ends up with Hypos and Normals, because the Albino Leopard was NOT Sharp, but was Kahl.

So now he comes back to me, and ruins my reputation, all because someone bred Sharp to a DH Sharp Kahl.

This is also why I do not like the sale of Het Kahls as normals, which is done by some just to sell the babies faster.

I understand your wearyness about it all (I am a big advocate of providing all known information when selling animals in this market.)
but ....

In your story, if the Leopard was bred to the Sharp albino 50% het Kahl, then the offspring would be 100% Sharp no matter what. You wouldnt have the issue of getting no Sharp genes and mistakenly getting a Kahl gene because if they are not compatable (which would be why we would be dealing with double het albinos in the first place) they would pass on just as any other non compatable trait such as anery and leopard.

The problem arrises when you breed the offspring together. In my eyes at this point you have done all the breeding yourself (you didnt acquire the animals after the leopard gene was introduced) and you should be aware of the genetics and know what you have the possiblity of producing and there for should acquire a new partner (double het albino/sharp).

I dont have either mutation to look at either, but I can usually tell which strain it is when looking at pictures.

Now I am not refuting your argument that it would not be the best of situations as you have proven that it wouldnt be. I was just making the point that it wouldnt be the worst outcome in the world.
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- Jason F.