Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have never owned a snake (only turltes) and I see the racks advertised all the time, and breeders using them. They look like a very bleak home that the animal wouldn't really appreciate much? I must be missing something because they seem so popular. Do they even get any light inside of them?

I've had a pet store person tell me she'd never put a snake in a rack, that it was cruel and inhumane treatment.

I was there to pick up a BRB they bought from me that was not eating and was all dried out. Against my reccomendations, they had made a really nice 10 gallon viv with fake plants bark etc. with a SCREEN top and a heat lamp. They misted daily. (like rain in the desert, wet for a moment then quickly dried back up).

I took this "not doing so well" hatchling BRB (BTW, it was doing fine for me and never refused a meal before I sold it to them) and put it back into my cruel rack system. Took a few weeks to repair the damage and rehydrate the BRB but it THRIVED in my cruel rack system and was returned to the store with a strong scolding and I made sure they corrected their caging.

Bottom line, yes a rack does not have a lot of mental stimulus for a snake, IMO they don't need it anyways. It is much easier to control the environment they need to thrive. I check every drawer every day and clean as needed. I have not lost one single baby in my racks.

In the wild they'd bury themselves in the forrest litter and only come out to eat or bask in the sun.

>>I have never owned a snake (only turltes) and I see the racks advertised all the time, and breeders using them. They look like a very bleak home that the animal wouldn't really appreciate much? I must be missing something because they seem so popular. Do they even get any light inside of them?
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Snakes don't like to feel constantly exposed. In wide open tanks that are overly lit, snakes can become stressed due the constant feeling that they are going to get eaten. Racks provide a lot of security as well as other good features. Humidity is easy to maintain and control. Heating is efficent and safer than many other types such as exposed bulbs.

I would never keep a turtle in a rack. But for snakes and a few others like nocturnal geckos, they are a great choice. At one point I thought it looked kinda inhumane, But I was thinking about what I would like and not what would make the animal comfortable. I still like cages for larger animals.

My one time favorite was the aquarium, and I would say now that these are the worst possible place to keep a snake. They are nearly impossible to maintain humidity and ventilation in. And they are very hard to heat safely. My snakes shed, feed, and breed better since they have been put in racks.

The best part however is how easily they can be cleaned and disinfected. And that is the most import

I used to think like you. One thing we both agree on: snakes do like security, and racks provide that security.

But whether they breed "better" or not in racks is something that can be debated.

Snake breeders in Europe have had much more success reproducing the more delicate snakes than people in the US. They are likely 10 years ahead. The prevailing philosophy in Europe: keep snakes (namely breeding adults) in roomy cages with a wide temp gradient as opposed to racks, with the cage decor aimed at the specific species in question.

I have seen more natural behaviors in snakes when they were put in larger cages with substrate/hides specific to the species. You start to notice things that may give clues to what they do in the wild. Most racks don't provide that.

Kingsnakes and cornsnakes have many behaviors in common, but may go about some of them in different ways. In a rack, you submit them to one set of conditions. Maybe not cruel, but not the best you can do.

Now there are racks available that are more roomy. That is a start. But so many people in the US want dozens of snakes kept in the smallest possible space. People have adapted to racks because it makes peoples' lives easier. It wasn't done for the snakes.

Diseases are also harder to control in naturalistic vivaria. Mites and internal parasites that do not need an intermediate host would need to have there whole cage torn apart and everything disinfected or thrown away. Even with a quarantine period a healthy captive can get parasites from other sources such as their food source.

The plus side of natural vivaria is that there is little clean up due to the bioactive soil that will help to breakdown and reuse waste materials. Well, I doubt that will work with a Ball Python whose poo looks more like dog than snake. With smaller animals like dart frogs it will work, but not for all.

I will admit that racks did come about as a need for convenience. But would you not admit that a cage that is more convenient to clean completely is also one that is cleaned completely more often?

That said I have sterile racks and cages, as well as natural vivaria with false bottoms, bioactive soil, live plants, and drip walls. My animals are not kept in the smallest possible space, but I don't overdo it either. Many snakes have suddenly developed feeding problems when stuck into oversized caging. But like everything else there will always be those that push the line and use the good points as an excuse to keep a 7' ratsnake in a 22"x16" box.

I agree that "naturalistic" caging would be hard to keep clean. I myself wouldn't attempt trying to reproduce nature in a cage - too much work and I would come up way short.

In a large cage - even a plastic cage with newspaper substrate - a person could provide a moist area (humidity chamber), a large nest area with a moisture gradient, and a true temperature gradient. A typical rack can't fit it all in one box usually. And if the species is a climber, a keeper can have some branches (even if it is 1x2s) and overhead heat if it applies. Point is, more choices, without too much inconvenience to the keeper.

I've done some experiments with Cal kings in the past. There is a marked difference when they are kept in large cages. They have more "spirit" if you will, sometimes more prone to strike at times. But they ate, they had fantastic tone and bred effortlessly.

I'm not anti-rack, especially for baby snakes, I just wish folks wouldn't cram adults into such tight places with no choices. The use of larger racks would be a big plus IMO but still do not provide the room to do it best (again IMO.) Some exceptions may be sandboas/rosies - they do very well in small cages it seems.

Good discussion.

This is indeed a good discussion, and frankly I agree with both of you.

Naturalistic looks are defenetly good, to a certain point. Like Mark said we can't reproduce nature but we can imitate it to a certain point.

Not only does the cage feel better to the inhabitant as far as comfort and space to move. It is more appealing to look at a beautiful display cage rather than a wall of sterile tubs.

However I totally agree that it is size specific, and like mark said baby's do better in racks.

I myself keep hatchlings and juvies in racks and my Adults, they get the larger more spacious cages.

So while it may be mean to keep the little ones in tubs, at least they have something to look forward to.

Oh and another thing Quarentine racks are a good tool because it allows the keeper to closly monitor temps and condiotons for those that may be ill. Just thought I would throw that out there.

Good things, good things.
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

This discussion is interesting, but Cal Kings? Granted, I've only bred about a dozen of the more common species, but I'd but the Cal King at the top of "EASY to BREED!". I think these things would breed in a paper sack. LOL!
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Kassandra Royer
Royer Reptiles

LOL. Very true, they do breed easily. I guess what I meant was that the females lay eggs and recover nicely, as opposed to being really skinny for awhile.

Only a person who knows very little about snakes would believe that it is cruel to keep them in racks. I have bred snakes for many years and have learned through experience that young baby snakes thrive best not only when they are kept in racks, but also when they are kept in the smallest boxes avaialable. Of course, I also continue to hear about how cruel it is to keep snakes in small enclosures, and once again, it is always from someone who knows very little about snakes...the armchair or internet experts if you will.
As for stimulus, I believe this is good for snakes and that it can also be provided in racks. Simply adding harmless objects into an enclosure will give a snake something to investigate. However, I find it cruel to do this stuff with unestablished baby snakes. With babies, feeding should come first. The focus should be on establishing consistent and successful feedings, and too much stimulus can detract from making this happen.
If someone wants to argue that nurturing snakes in a rack system is cruel, I would direct them to a rattlesnake roundup where wild snakes are mutilated, butchered, and abused for the entertainment of all. Providing care for snakes in cages is not cruel. Anyone who believes this should have a bullet...well nevermind. Will Bird

After reading you post I thought two things;

One I agree and have to problem keeping young snakes or even certain adults of a species in a rack.

My main thought was "hey if someone is having a problem keeping the snake in a rack, how hipocritical are they for keeping a snake in captivity period".

So long as your meeting the snakes needs if its in a rack or cage I think it makes no differance.

Well said.
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

"So long as your meeting the snakes needs if its in a rack or cage I think it makes no differance."

Exactly, that's the key statement right there. If you're meeting the needs. Many people stick snakes and other herps in the screened topped aquariums and then fill it with all sorts of junk that looks pretty and "looks" like nature but is of no use to the snake and wonder why it doesn't do well. A hatchling anything would do perfectly fine in a 20'x20' cage, if the needs are provided for. If there were hides (nice tight REAL hides), and places to thermoregulate while in hiding and regulating the humidty in hiding then they'd be fine. But then what's the point of a 20'x20' cage, when a rack will accomplish all that the 20'x20' will and be much easier to maintain.

Nate

I just wanted to add another small comment to everyone elses. I use cages and racks... I like both for different situations and animals, but not too much stimuli for the already mentioned reasons.
In addition to everyone elses positive remarks on racks, with exceptions for size or species... you must understand that an animal is used to certain surroundings. Hard to explain what I mean, but if a baby snake is born and cared for in a rack it is comfortable with this small and secure home as it is all it has ever known... HOWEVER, taking an animal from the wild may be a different story. As that animal, who may also like the small spaces and dark hides, is also used to roaming freely and has its whole life. It is of course a matter of opinion. They usually adapt and become comfortable, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
I think there is only a size issue when the snakes welfare is overlooked for owners comfort and not the snakes, and I have seen racks abused and snakes in tubs much smaller than I would ever consider. Those people make rack systems look bad.
There are many points to consider and in the end, it is the owner that must make the right choices for their snakes and be open minded about different options regarding cleanliness and comfort.
Stephanie S.

I just want to clarify that I was ASKING if it was cruel; not that I said it WAS cruel. There is a definite difference. I do not know anything about snakes that is why I asked instead of assumed.

Hello again,
Don't worry, I don't think anybody is attacking you... they are debating their differing opinions amongst themselves. Everyone has a point of view to express and some of us do get carried away when we don't agree with something.
It is pretty educational though, you are getting views from professionals, amateurs and hobbyists that will allow you to decide for yourself. I enjoy reading what they have to say!
Great question by the way!
Stephanie S.

I have custom racks for my turtles. I keep most in them, they are easy to heat, light, and clean. I have been using them for a few years and have had more reproduction & rearing luck with them than any other way of keeping turtles, 25 years of turtle keeping

Alright you have got to post a pic of that, I very much want to see pics of turtles in racks.

Thanks
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

I'd like to see a pic too. Is it a rack or more of a stack of enclosures. I am most interested in how you provide heat and light.

I used to keep turtles in a sliding rack. Took large concrete mixing tubs and built a regular rack for them. But unlike a snake rack with a 1/8" gap, I built them with like a 6" gap. On the underside of each shelf I attached lights. The 6" gap allowed them to fit in.

All but the top level was for terrestrial turtles. The top was for aquatics.

Now here's the ironic part -- I got the design from a European.

I have also built racks for chameleons, bearded dragons and arboreal geckos. For the latter example, picture a lidless rack built around large plastic garbage cans.

Racks are a great and be accomodated for many species, you just need a bit of vision.

But on the other hand, you'll never find me keeping a Cornsnake or an Everglades Ratsnake in one.

In those cases I feel a rack is not the choice for me, but I won't go far as to say it is cruel.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Aquatic turtles in racks? Are we talking hatchlings or adults? That would ahve to be a big rack for an adult.

Mostly adult box turtles, and the boxes were pretty big.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Sorry, the aquatic turtles were small sliders. No large adults.

I used the exact same tubs that many keepers use for these species. I just built a rack for them.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

I tried to post picture but cant get them in . I saw that some one else described them for me that is what they are like the light from the lower shelf heat the one above . I keep dwarf turtles in the racks. All my large turtles are hibernated although I do keep their young in racks for the first 2 years of their lives.

I SLEEP IN A DRAWER!! - Ralph Wiggum
No, racks are not harmful.
Snake order of importance:
Eat - 3
Reproduce - 3
Poop 3.3
Everyting Else - %0.7

Don't know why it didn't work but the #'s were supposed to be:
Eat: 33 Percent
Reproduce: 33 Percent
Poop: 33.3 Percent
Everything else:0.7 Percent

I was just going to keep my mouth shut until I read that last post. The entire question is stupid if you ask me. I think keeping anything wild confined in ANY sized cage is "cruel," (turtle, snake, rabbit, horse, bear, wolf, zebra, mosquito, mantis, etc) but life is what it is, and these things will continue to happen with or without me. Since I am and always will be a lover of all things green, I keep and try to keep happy my own charges. So here we are:

How can YOU possibly say what is important to a snake? Are YOU a snake? Have YOU ever BEEN a snake? Are you intending to BECOME a snake?

What? No?

Well, then I hardly think that your objective opinion on what a snake values is important, especially since that is really what matters to YOU snake-wise. I've NEVER heard of an animal being happier in tiny plastic cases. Oh, but they need security!! Well...I tend to disagree with that because they're in danger constantly while in the wild, and I can almost promise you they prefer it there to our glass and plastic homes.
Everybody is CONSTANTLY saying how hard it is to keep snakes in their tanks. Snakes = Houdini and whatnot. Do you think that's because they LIKE it there? And OK...everything confined will try to escape. The grass is greener, etc. But if they actually PREFER those things...why don't they ever come back?
If the snake only cares about food, pooping, and reproducing...then why doesn't it just sit still all the time if it knows you're going to feed it? Hello? Are you REALLY so dumb to believe that a snake's wants and needs are dependent on how you want to keep it?
I don't disagree with racks, but I disagree with keepers who are dumb enough to think that snakes only care about three simple things. I try my utmost to care for my animals (at present a ball python and a leopard gecko), and not just their basic needs. I TRY as HARD as I can to keep them happy. And they seem to be (though my leopard gecko is still a mystery to me).

For the same reasons you believe he can't possible know what his snake wants and or desires, how do you know what makes yours happy.

And while I don't disagree with you because it is impossible to know what precentage of anything the animal cares or needs. If there was such a precentage I believe IMHO that to reproduce would take up about 50% of the animals life. Eating would be of course a close second and since defication is part of the eating cycle I don't think it deserves its own precentage at all

I think this thread is another controversial morale delema and will never be solved.

For some though its is fun to argue.

Cheers!
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

Don't forget about security. I would say that security would make up 75% or more then reproduction, thermoregulation, and feeding.

This is the most anthropomorphized thread yet!!

Security is NOT what makes a snake happy. Snakes reproduce in the wild moreso than in captivity, and I think that can be agreed upon by everybody. And since a lot of times they're "secure" within these man-made environs, it is ridiculous to argue that a snake needs to feel secure above their other needs, or to even put security on level ground with their other needs.
And I never once said that I KNOW what makes a snake happy. I just do whatever the snake seems to want. I did say that I TRY to make them happy. For instance: when he's cruisin' the cage, I pop the top and let him crawl around outside a bit. Sometimes, he crawls all over me. Others, he doesn't seem to care about me at all. He's ALWAYS under tight supervision, so I can't always let him loose when he wants to be, but he seems to enjoy the fact that if I want his attention I knock on the top of his tank (he ALWAYS sticks his head out to see what's up), instead of shifting his scenery around. He seems to enjoy lots of things to climb over. So I give him that. Since I've started trying to care for more than the "Basic" needs of James (the name of the Ball Python in my care), I've noticed that he's been a lot more active, a lot more cooperative (especially when putting him back in the aquarium), and a lot less shy around me (not that balls are shy OR uncooperative, but this one is even less so). Its a lot more like a pet relationship than a "hey I'm a snake in an aquarium and you own me" relationship. I can't say for certain, of course, because I'm not James and James can't talk; but it sure seems to me to be that way.

If you think that security is not important. I'll put a ball python in an aquarium with no hiding areas, but plenty of branches. Then I'll put one in a rack with a nice tight hide. Which do you think will do better?? The MOST important thing for ANY snake is having the ability to "hide" and feel secure, safe from predation. I put hide in quotes because some arboreal snakes feel well hidden in plain sight.

Second, you said nobody would argue that snakes breed more in the wild than in captivity. That is completely false. Snakes in captivity have better access to food and recover from breeding faster and more completely than those in the wild. In captivity many species will double clutch, often times for years in a row. In the wild these same species of snakes will take years off between breeding. Copperheads are known to take up to 5 years off between breedings. You don't have to believe me, go to your nearest college library and pick up some journal articles sometime.

I think he meant that they are more willing to breed in the wild. And I agree that with nothing in an aquarium a ball python would be insecure but he said a large aquarium with a hide, climbing stuff etc. Put a snake in a rack system with no hide you'll get the same effect as an aquarium with no hide. I agree with racks for hatchlings and stuff this is when security and food are top to them, even in the wild. But as it gets older and more confident it would probably want free reign of you house if it could. But for his safety we keep him in a little box. I believe that an aquarium or (large rack equivilant) with stimuli (a climbing branch or two) a hide a substrate and a water dish is fine. But as always remember to take all of your snakes out (or lizards or turtles etc) for some exercise and to stretch. I mean we would all want an enclosure that a snake can fully stretch out in. But buying a 72 inch long aquarium is out of reach for most of us.

Heres the pro's and cons of most aquariums/racks for snakes/lizards etc.

Size: aquariums are often taller and longer than rack cages. But the racks are also wider and with most species height is not a factor, so depending on your animal racks or aquariums are better.

Light: I believe that all reptiles benifit from some sort of light. Preferably full-spectrum. In aquariums this is easy but in racks this is not so do-able. Also a 12/12 cycle is good too.

Heat: In aquariums this is harder as heat escapes more easily. But in racks this is trapped.

Space: Racks take up little space as aquariums take up alot of space.

Ease: cleaning in a rack system is a breeze while an aquarium it is very difficult.

Looks: Even someone who does'nt think rack systems are cruel should at least admit for people that are seeing them for the first time. They do "look cruel" An aquarium is much more main-stream and accepted as uncruel.

Security: a Hide box is alls a normal snake needs for security. Also with a black backround taped around 3 sides of the aquarium the same effect is reached as far as security.

All in all an naturalistic aquarium is better for displaying your prize breeders than a rack system. Although for all your prized hatchlings are best kept in a rack room.

Did you really just spend 2000 dollars on that new python morph to keep it in a little plastic box were no one can see it???

Aquariums for the living room, racks for the hatchlings and growing animals.

Sry for the long post.

But that's not what s/he said. I was simply adding security to the list of things that seem important to a snake. S/he jumped on other people for attempting to list things that a snake enjoys. Meanwhile s/he has clearly done the same thing on previous posts. S/he has said in previous posts that their Ball Python "likes" to be held, and that when they "knock" on the cage their BP comes out to see what's happening.

No snake likes to be held, they only tolerate it. And you should never knock on the cage of any reptile, especially snakes. I learned that when I was 5. I knocked on a cage, then my mom knocked on my head and asked me how I liked it.

I think that it's a little odd that for someone who so strongly thinks that snake hate being confined that all living things should be free and do much better in the wild actually keeps some as pets.

That's all I'm saying.

I'm simply commenting on the entire question of racks being "cruel." In the same respect that racks are cruel, so are aquariums, is the meaning that I intended.

As for tapping on the glass...of course I don't do that! I said his log. And lightly; and most times I don't even need to do that, because he hears me when I open the lid. And as for whether or not he likes to be held, I also said that I don't REALLY know, but he sure does spend a lot of time crawling all over me when I'm NOT trying to hold him.

Well this is the deal all types of captivity can be considered cruel. I mean my cat wants to run outside I don't let him, is that cruel? I mean if you are providing for your animal it is healthy by the standards of that particular animal then the animal can be considered: "happy"

It may not be "love" but snakes do recognize the hand that feeds them and are grateful in their own way: (IE breeding, eating, looking amazing)

Thats that really.

He likes to watch the Simpsons and on Sundays he makes me take him to church. And I'm jewish!
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1.0 Spotted Python
1.0 IJ Carpet Python
0.1.1 Ball Pythons
0.1 Macklot's Python
1.0 Variable Kingsnake

Yes possibly your snake does like being held. See my other post on social structure in rattlesnakes. I have observed many times snakes of all ages basking next to and touching each other when they clearly don't need to be. Why would they do this? Security, dominance display, mate claiming, mate protecting, teaching young, protecting young? They definitly do it but why I don't know.
Actually I do not think I have ever seen babies with other babies unless there was an adult also in the vicinity but I have seen all other combos of ages together.

I used to believe that a snake liking to be held, recognizing it's keeper, etc. was impossible. Now I'm not so sure. Dogs, cats, horses, etc. all are trainable because they learn to recognize you as the leader of their, pack, pride herd, etc. They all have different levels off this for example dogs are more social than cats and have different levels of perception, need, trainablity, etc. For a long time snakes were thought of a non-social. Many non-professional and professional scientists now believe that many snakes do abide by a social structure. Rattlesnakes for instance have a den structure. I have personally observed what is apparently rattlesnakes basking in pairs, pair with babies, and gaurding behavior of parents toward babies and individuals apparently consistently choosing to associate with certain other individuals and not with others. Others with more experience have told me that mother rattlesnakes will actually herd babies back to dens, show them safe basking areas and that babies will follow and imitate adult hunting behavior.
If somedody tells me their snake recognizes them and likes to be held I am much more inclined to believe them nowdays because I think this could be nothing more than imprinting their keeper as the dominant individual of their colony and den.

Some folks take an anthropomorphic view to such instances. They claim those who maintain wildlife do not know what their charges actually want, but in their responses, often come across as they do.
Squid made a point of mentioning equines. Well, I have been an academic herpetologist for over to 20 years now and my wife has been working with Andalusians for about the same amount of time. With the exception of a few, most snakes prefer to spend the majority of their time in confined, dark and secure spaces. This explains why it is imperative for those using large enclosures, self included, to also use hide boxes.
As for horses, I believe you would be surprised at just how attached such become to their stalls. Why even WC mustangs, adopted from BLM roundups, soon prefer their stall to open pasture much of the time.
In short, no, racks are not cruel unless you are housing large specimens in inappropriate sized tubs, neglecting to maintain such and/or the specimens within or exposing your charges to inappropriate environmental conditions.

Best regards,

Jeff
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Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.603.1947

How could any sane person take that as anything but a joke? Wow.

laff

anyone who has owned snakes commonly kept in racks (ball pythons for one) knows that the damn things stay coiled up in the smallest tightes spot they can find. They most often, in fact, fair much better in smaller enclosures.

people have been raising perfectly healthy animals for generations in racks...nuff said

this thread is amusing

You mention ball pythons. Their body shape suggests a snake that is not real active. They live in tight burrows at forest edges and farmland in Africa. Their nature is what it is: not a real active snake compared to other species.

Now look at a cornsnake. Built to climb and very agile. Yes they hide in tight spaces too. But they also climb.

Keeping them in identical conditions does not maximize the potential of both. Maybe one (ball python) but not necessarily both.

Not cruel because the basic needs are met. Just not maximizing what the snakes can do or would do. Racks are limiting to certain species. Not cruel at all, but limiting.

Keep a Cal king at 90 deg in a rack and see what happens. Then put the same snake in a 10'x10' room at 90 deg and see. World of difference in stress level to the snake.

I know you wouldn't do that to rack snakes, but the point is that volume matters in environmentally stressful conditions, so racks should be safeguarded against overtemp conditions.

OK now I really need to get a life.

Not all racks need to be terrestrial oriented. What is the difference between a 16x22x12 sterilite and a custom cage the same size? Both can have climbing areas, hides, and whatever else. The only difference is one slides closed like a drawer. Racks are only limited by the imagination of the user. Some people have even come up with ways to light racks, etc...

But the original question is if it is cruel to use racks. To that I would have to say... not if thet are used responsibly. I would say it is way more cruel to keep a cornsnake in an improperly heated 4x2 cage with a dirty substrate and no hide than in a clean rack with proper heat and hides.

Like I said I use almost all manners of caging depending on what I am housing and why. Some animals are display, some are breeders, some are terrestrial, some are aquatic. It is most important to keep them housed in an enclosure that keeps them clean and healthy. And since sterilite racks are easy to keep clean and heated, I have no problem using them.

>>Not all racks need to be terrestrial oriented. What is the difference between a 16x22x12 sterilite and a custom cage the same size?
>>

Well, nothing, except racks are largely built around available storage boxes - boxes which are not sized or intended for snakes by the manufacturer.

When I make or buy a cage, it is sized for the snake, not to a storage container.

Now when I see racks with larger boxes, like those made around the CB-70 box, I think that is better for many adult kings and corns than 28 qt or 32 qt boxes.

I guess my beef is not with the idea of the rack - racks are a great idea - but with the execution of the idea. Most racks are sized for boxes, not the snakes going in. For baby or small snakes that works out fine, but not always for adult snakes.

With the exception of commercial cages, nothing is manufactured with the specific intent of being used to house reptiles. Since the dawn of herpetoculture we have tried many different things, some good, some are bad and burn down houses. But to say that they are bad because they were designed for non reptile uses, well that makes me think you work for exo-terra.

I do agree that they can be misused, but then again so can anything else.

i keep my snakes in a rack and they are fine. as long as their needs are met they dont really care about anythingh else.
i keep my snakes on newspaper with cereal boxes as hides and stainles steel water bowls, as for lighting its not that important, im using clear tubs, so its really not even dark in them at all
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jake

my addiction:
0.2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
0.1 amelenistic corn snake (maizy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)
1.0 albino call king (zuess)
0.0.1 wc garter (zim)
hybrid breeders association
hybrid haven

No they are not cruel per-say but like it was said before: look at the europe they are 10 years ahead of us. I think its just important to find that in-between section between european terraria design and united states terraria design. I am actually going to start up a "natural terraria" for a snake and see if it acts any different than the ones I have owned.

PS: baby snakes don't care, if they could eat sleep drink and get heat all in one hiding spot they would never leave till they got too big for the hole. But I think some of the bigger snakes that are full grown need some sort of stimuli, be it semi- frequent handlings or a huge set-up.

Name 3 species of snake, availiable to the U.S., that have been readily breed in Europe but not the U.S.

If they are so ahead then it would be easy.

I can give you five genera off the top of my head. Each of these general has multiple species. With some time I could make this list much, much larger.

Gonyosoma

Chrysopelea

Philodryas

Pseustes

Drymobius

And when it comes to small lizards and amphibians, that is where they are really ahead of us.

Note that some of these difference between US and European breeders may be due to interest. We all know what market appeal can do to the popularity of a species. For whatever reason these more difficult to keep species may appeal to them more than they do to us.

In fact there are some species of snake that exist in the US only because Europeans bred them and exported them to the US.

I also understand that at European shows you can often find captive bred specimens of US native species that are rare in the hobby. Things like Coachwhips, Shovel and Patch Nosed snakes.
Again, this may only be due to variation in interest, but I doubt it.

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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

To be completely fair, I have no idea as to just how "readily" available these species are over there. I do know that they turn up at shows, however, and my friends seem to suggest that if you want them you can find them.

And I need to add Boiga to that list. A lot of CB Boiga spp. in Europe.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Sorry, I'm pretty sure Drymobius is monotypic. The rest of the general listed, included Boiga, have more than one species.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

I didn't think anyone would be able to...

Anyway, are you sure about Gonyosoma? I really thought they have been breed in the US. Also, Chrysopelea and Philodryas are rear fanged I believe, that could keep some at bay due to local restrictions. Other than that I do belive you are right, none of the others have. But you did bring up an important point, that is the differences in what we find interesting.

We love our morphs here don't we? U.S. buyers have little to no interest in eurasian or neotropical colubrids. Even our native colubrids are thrown to the side in favor of the big bad boids.

But honestly, if a species sells well, but doesn't breed in a rack, U.S. breeders have no problem doing what is needed. Arboreal species like green tree pythons and emerald tree boas are readily breed in the U.S., and other arboreal colubrids would be if there was a market interest.

In your original post you said species
"that have been readily breed (bred?) in Europe but not the U.S."

I took that to mean species that are bred on a regular basis in Europe but not on a regular basis in the US. Did you mean like never in the US? If so, that's hardly a fair comparison.

Sure, some Gonyosoma have been produced in the US but hardly any. I have corresponded with many of the breeders who have accomplished it and most were only able to do it a few times.

I don't know anyone in the US who would suggest they breed readily. Well I know of one zoo, but ironically they kept them in huge walk in cages that were heavily planted and had rain systems that went off several times a day. Not mist systems, but simulated rainfall. That's more of a European approach. And they are bred in Europe and evidently can be found with not a whole lot of trouble.

Did you know that in Germany something like a Yellow Ratsnake is required by humanitarian laws to be kept in a cage that is 5'x5'x5'? If a pair is kept (or Gonyosoma) in the cage the cage should be increased in size by 10%.

But to the rear-fang issue, keep in mind that US breeders produce huge amounts of very dangerous cobras, rattlesnakes, etc. They are easy to keep and breed, which I can say from experience. So if it were a restriction issue certainly it would also appear in the more dangerous species, right? But I can buy a CB cobra for $45.

I also think there are examples among the venomous snakes that would reject the interest point I made earlier. There are many species of venomous that are very popular in the US but not bred very often. Yet many of these are supposedly bred in Europe.

But I won't say that for sure since I no longer correspond with European venomous keepers. At least not those who keep the real dangerous stuff.

Sorry, but I do firmly believe that European breeders are ahead of the US in breeding harder to keep species. How much of that is due to naturalistic vivaria is hard to say but I do suspect it plays a role.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

I guess the question was poorly phrased, but I didn't think anyone would be able to answer it...guess I was wrong.

I will admit you have me on this one. I could have asked who has had more intitial breeding success with more species. This would be Europe also, but they cheated, they have more countries!!...LOL

With the freedom with which breeding protocols are traded among keepers it is nearly imposible to say that one is readily bred one place, but never in the other.

Ok so Europe rules, was it not enough to have the Fiji Island Iguana?

I think if you knew the true scope of difficult species bred in Europe you'd be amazed.

BTW, I'm fairly certain Figi Island Iguanas are in the private sector. But in that case it's not an issue of advanced keeping, it's an issue of who can get their hands on them, legally or illegally.

There are a lot of things in the private sector that would surprise you.

One other point. The number of countries in Europe actually makes obtaining and breeding reptiles more difficult in many cases. It is typically harder to transport animals from country to country than from state to state.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

I was a tank addict myself. I kept all kinds of snakes in tanks.
Then I got into ball pythons...and ended up with 5...
That was too many tanks, so I built a rack...
and I noticed a HUGE difference in my snakes.
They ate every week...
they started shedding in ONE piece...
and they were just all around calmer.

Are racks cruel?
I think not.

Most of the people who think racks are cruel don't know much about snakes. They don't realize that yes...snakes have MILES of territory in the wild...but 90% of their time is spent in a hole or wedged in a log.
They compare snakes to dogs and cats who need room to roam...
but they're not dogs or cats...they're snakes.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

I don't think that they're cruel, because, as has been pointed out, snakes like to be in small dark places. My Ball Python lives in a 48"*24"*18" tank made of wood (painted green with marine grade paint or something like that. this baby could be a fishtank) except for a glass front. The lid is soild wood except for a hole cut for a heating lamp and another (that can be closed) cut to exactly fit a wet towel, used for keeping the humidty up. So she has all this room to slither around in and explore, so she spends all day in one of her hides. but at night, when 'm trying to sleep, she likes to roam around in there and climb on top of her hides and on her hunk of wood, and jump off the top of them to wake me up. Granted, I'm not a breeder, so I only have one snake to worry about, not 30, but I don't think my snake would be as happy in a rack system.

Yeah know i am in the same debate myself. I always said to myself i will never use racks because of the lack of enviroment the snakes have and the lack of exercise. So i have about 50 snakes in my aptmt and man racks are looking to be great space savers. But in good racks i was looking at they do get light and ventilation, but i don't think you should put large snakes in racks, they need the all the room they can use. As for the smaller breeds i would put them in decent sized racks with maybe things to climb on or in..etc.. That is my opinion.

That makes me feel much better about their living/breeding conditions.

-One more question. If you own a snake and want to be able to view it or display it as a show piece what is the best type of cage? Or is this just in contradiction to an ideal situation?

This was such an inocent question. I truely was just looking for a quick yes this is why or no this is why. Didn't realize this was so contraversial.

Thanks for all of the very passionate responses; sane or insane.

For snakes I really dont think that they are cruel. I dont use them, I prefer to keep reptiles in more naturalistic cages. I enjoy them more that way. Racks are ugly and you cant view your animals. If youre breeding snakes I can totally understand the use of racks.

I keep and breed sand boas who really do best in these types of enclosures. They spend nearly 100% of their time below their substrate and actually like the low ceilinged racks as they make them feel more secure. Since they really only like to burrow a box of stuff to burrow in works great.