Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am a first time breeder with a few snakes already as pets (corn snakes) I want to start breeding ball pythons and have been saving money for a good breeding pair or more.
I kinda feel dumb asking but how do you get bumblebees? I'd hate to buy a few snakes and end up just breeding normals...ANY advice would be great.
I'm also thinking of working with a breeding group of 14 snakes to work towards albinos and pieds, this however would be a big responsiblity for my first project and would be about 5 years before I started producing morphs...
Which project would be better?
Thanks in advance
Jessica

Bumblebees are the result of a Pastel x Spider breeding. Killer Bees are Bumble Bees bred back to a Pastel. If your new to breeding i wouldn't be focusing on Ablinos or any recessive traits for that matter, unless you can afford a female albino. Or a large female het albino that won't yield to many albinos anyways.

I'm not sure how experienced you are, but incase you didn't know Ball Pythons produce very small quantities of young. Thats why recessive traits are bad to start with. Ball pythons lay anywhere from 1 (minimum) to 16 (maximum/very rare) eggs per clucth. It is more common to have a 4-8 egg clutch and thats from a decent sized adult.

I would shoot for the Bumblebees, all the way. Buy a male spider (you might be able to get a 2006 ready by next season but a 2005 Spider would be much better) And get a female pastel thats at least 800 grams (or the biggest you can find-your going to need a female around 1200 grams/18 months of age minimum to produce). Also try and snatch up a few normal females of breeding size because the spider gene is Dominant, results of a Spider x Normal breeding are 100% spiders. And when you look for normal females buy them as big as possible, i mean huge because large quantitiy clutches of spiders are great to have around.

Then run that male spider through all your females, this is where age/size/and experience plays a part. A male ball python will disregard his good health for a good breed. So you have to chose when hes had too much, because breeding will take a tole on your animals. Of course put more emphasis on the spider x pastel breeding. But don't forget about making all those spiders with the Spider x Normal breeding, you produce enough of them and cut some price tags and you can buy your self all the bumblebees you want. Keep in mind that its easier said then done. Both the breeding/producing and selling of the animals.

Pastels(co-dom), Mojave(co-dom), and Spiders(dom) especially are all great investmant ball morphs, if you want to eventually be able to breed albinos then work with those three morphs and youll have snakes to trade/sell towards albinos later on.
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2.2.1 Bearded Dragons
1.0.0 Lemon Pastel Ball Pythons (NERD Line)
0.0.1 Water Monitors
1.1.0 Pastel Red Tailed boa Het. for Albino
1.2.0 Yellow Ackie Monitors
And Counting...

thanks so much for the reply that helped alot I didnt realize the spider morph was a dominant gene. I did have one more question about the bumblebees.

Say I do get my pair Spider X Pastel its not an absolute that I will get bumblebees right? I could get spiders or pastels but not always bumblebees?

Anyway thanks again I start my genetics class next quarter until then I'm doing this all on research and from other peoples experiences.

Jessica

a Spider x Pastel breeding would yield 50% spider and 50% Bumblebees(both spider and pastel genes). I'm going to try to explain why... If you breed a Spider to a Normal then the offspring will be 100% Spiders. The Spider gene is completely dominant so any offspring from a Spider will always in one way or another be a Spider.

If you breed a Pastel to a Normal then the offspring will be 50% Pastel and 50% normal. The reason being is that a Pastel is co-dominant. Or another way of looking at it is that Pastels are a visual het for Super Pastels. They are not the complete form, but can physically express their heterozygous form unlike recessive traits(because their co-dom)

So we know that a Spider will always produce 100% Spiders so thats already taken care of. And we know that Pastels will produce 50% pastels and 50% normals because they are hets for supers(unless bred to another pastel-that would be het to het breeding). Now when a Pastel is bred to a Spider the 50% that would be completely normal in a Pastel x Normal breeding will inherit the spider gene. The normal gene combined with the Spider gene poduces Spiders because of the Spider's dominance. But the other 50% that would be pastel in a Pastel x Normal breeding will also inherit the Spider gene... and thats what we call a Bumblebee. So the clutch will consist of 50% Spiders and 50% Pastel-Spiders (Bumblbee).

And i haven't mentioned this yet but all these predictions can be calaculated in punnette squares. But again these are predictions. You could end up with all Spiders, you could end up with all Bumbless, its all a matter of chance but for the most part the percentages will be somewhat correct. Heres a great link for predicting offspring that i found in my favorites list...

http://www.geneticswizard.com/f_start_genetics_wizard.asp

You should go to nerd reptiles website and study some of the genetic articles there, look around just try to get a grip on recessive, co-doms, and dominant traits and how they work if you dont already know... then use the link above to start filling in the blanks with the knowledge you have of each trait. It can get really complicated at times. Besdt of luck, and when your genetics course is over be sure to leave a post for me to ask you a bunch a questions. Later
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2.2.1 Bearded Dragons
1.0.0 Lemon Pastel Ball Pythons (NERD Line)
0.0.1 Water Monitors
1.1.0 Pastel Red Tailed boa Het. for Albino
1.2.0 Yellow Ackie Monitors
And Counting...

um it is horrible how some one can give wrong info

spider are co dom just like pastels
and spiders dont have a super that is dominant, as for pastels they have a super.and when you breed a super pastel with a normal youget all pastels, but when you breed a spider with a normal you get 50% spiders.

as for bumble bee odds with a spider and pastel breeding are as followed

Spider X Pastel = 25% bumble bee 25% spider 25% pastel 25% normals

dont beleive me go to NERD's site and go to their genetics 101 page it explains it better then i do

hope that helped
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Joe

1.0 pastel
1.0 orange ghost
1.0 spider
0.1 pastel het ghost
0.7 normals, some not some normal

Your right im wrong about the potential offspring. I was under the impression that dominant form was its own super form. But, in the form i was thinking (that spiders are supers) the calculations were correct no? But your wrong about spiders their not co-dom. Because they dont have a super form, is exactly why there not. Their dominant, just like the wild type. You breed a wild type to a spider and you get 50% of each. Because both wild type and spiders are dominant. Don't believe me look in NERD's website in the photo gallery under "Spider."
They explain it better then do.
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2.3 Bearded Dragons
1.0 Spider Ball Pythons
1.0 Lemon Pastel Ball Pythons (NERD Line)
0.0.1 Water Monitors
1.1 Pastel Red Tailed boa Het. for Albino
1.1 Yellow Ackie Monitors
And Counting...

OK so I know we're in the middle of a whos right whos wrong thing...

I looked it up too and it says that the spider gene is dominant.
I'd still like to know who was right about the possiblities of bumblebees with spider x pastel.

And on another subject because of the information you guys provided I am really interested in starting my own projects but I'm trying to do it on a budget. So I have some questions any help would be good.

I would like to start with a spider male, a pastel female, and 2 or 3 normal females like you originally suggested.

Would getting a normal male to breed with any female morphs be benificial as well?

Could offspring from spider x normals be bred back to my pastel female?

Basically I want to be able to breed spider x pastel to get bumblebees. and have a few normals to make possible morphs to breed back to each other. I'm soo behind on all this and the research I'm doing is just not getting me the answers I need.

plain and simple a dominant morph will give you all visual offspring

when you breed a super pastel to a normal you get all pastels

but

when you breed a spider to a normal you get 50% spider 50% normal

you can believe who ever you want

i myself am breeding for bees to and getting a normal male would be pointless get a male pastel instead

as for me my plan is the breed my spider to a fem. pastel and like 2 or 3 normals and then i will keep all the female spiders and breed them to my male pastel and my orange ghost

and then you can also breed your male pastel to normals keeo the female pastels and breed then to either the male pastel to make super or male spider to make bees

its all strategy, well those are my breeding plans

hope that helped
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Joe

1.2 pastel (one female is het ghost)
1.0 orange ghost
1.0 spider
0.7 normals, some not some normal

It did help thanks so definitely no normal males...

I'm just a little confused on who can be bred back to who...daughters can go back to fathers, but sons cant go to mothers?
And what about if my spider breeds with a pastel and a normal can the offspring from those 2 litters be bred together? Why or why not? I think thats my biggest question because I only want to buy what I have to and if the offspring can be bred to each other say a spider from the spider x normal to a pastel from the spider x pastel ..well you can probably see how that would be helpful.

You guys are awesome
Jessica

First off let me say lovepig was right about the potential (bumblbee)offspring.

Breeding a female to father is okay. Breeding a male to mother is ok. Breeding siblings is ok but really not recommended. The reason why is because siblings have very similiar genetic codes to eachother. When bred together they have a higher chance of inheriting bad genes. Think of an unrelated breeding. both the mother and father are not related and have very different traits, and when bred togther some of these traits will collide. Some of these traits may be good, some might be bad.

With siblings the gene pool is very narrow, because the have close to the same genetic code. So you have a high possibilty of the sibling's offspring inheriting bad genes and deformaties. Well, not a high possibility, but HIGHER. In the case of two animals with the same father but different unrelated mothers, the line will be stronger due to each of the mothers adding its own unique genetic diversity. Thats really the goal, genetic diversity. i have heard not to breed spiders to spiders because they are already very inbred, but thats just what i heard. You can breed any parent to offspring, and you might get away with a sibling breeding for 2 seasons. It boils down to this, Line breed what you have to in order to proudce desired traits, and then outbreed to strengthen the lines with the desired traits. a couple seasons of doing what you have to do to get those bumblebees or super pastels or whatever it is you heading towards wont hurt. Just dont do it for two long, thats why more common pets like dogs cats can not be inbred, we destoryed their genetic diversities a long time ago. Reptiles, and snakes more then most still have large diversity in their genes, which gives us a little room to experiment. As far as morphs you can breed any kind you want together. Just avoid the sibling breeding, and if your breeding parent to offspring, be prepared to outbreed later on in your career.
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2.3 Bearded Dragons
1.0 Pastel Ball Pythons (NERD Line)
0.0.1 Water Monitors
1.1 Pastel Red Tailed boa Het. for Albino
1.1 Yellow Ackie Monitors
And Counting...

Alright you guys have helped soo much. I just sent a check today for a male pastel and 2 normal females at a steal for 300 !!!

When I get the money I'm gonna spring for a male spider and possibly some more norm females...but thats looking at 1000 everywhere.

I think I understand everything about line breeding and just wanted to confirm something because I think I have a pretty good plan.

Eventually when I get the male spider I'll breed it to the normals as well as breed my male pastel to the normals...which makes more spiders and pastels, that I can breed back to the opposite father or separate mothers. I really think I have a good understanding because of you two!!!!

With all your help I think I've upped my chances for lots of potential bumblebees if not lots of animals to breed. You guys have been AWESOME!!! I'll send pics when I get them..
Jessica

I would look around alot for normal females don't rush into them. Inside the breeders circle female balls of adult size can go for $200 and up. But if you see if you just stop in to pet shops every now and again you might find one for cheap, because not many local petshops are in the breeding buisness. Local reptile shows are a good place to find them too. And keep in mind that it takes about 2 to 3 years for a baby female to reach breeeding size.
Good luck
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2.3 Bearded Dragons
1.0 Pastel Ball Pythons (NERD Line)
0.0.1 Water Monitors
1.1 Pastel Red Tailed boa Het. for Albino
1.1 Yellow Ackie Monitors
And Counting...

Well I think I got as good of a deal as I could have hoped for on my budget...I got 2 females that are 300g each for $25 together. So at least I didnt sink a lot of money....thanks for the info

Thats a really good deal whod you purchase from?
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2.3 Bearded Dragons
1.0 Pastel Ball Pythons (NERD Line)
0.0.1 Water Monitors
1.1 Pastel Red Tailed boa Het. for Albino
1.1 Yellow Ackie Monitors
And Counting...

Here on kingsnake. I was looking for a pastel male as everyone had advised and I found him for 275 really high yellow color and a nice pattern plus the add said he'd throw in some normal females for 30 each and all the others pastel males I'd seen were like 400 so I told him I was interested and how much it would be for a package of the pastel and 2 normals and he told me 300 so basically I paid 25 more for 2 more snakes...I think I really lucked out. (even if they are young)

>plain and simple a dominant morph will give you all visual offspring

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depends on whether the spider in a spider x normal mating is homozygous spider (then, yes) or heterozygous spider (then, no). Consult the link for the results of various spider and pastel matings.

Many herpers do not use "dominant" as it is used in standard genetics.

Paul Hollander

Markus Jayne's ball python site

Since you have the Pastel male, all you need is a Spider female which if you call around could be purchased for around $800.00. Sure it will take about 2 years to get her up to a proper and healthy breeding size (depending on how well the snake eats and the overall health), but that will be your quickest way. The thing is though, you may get a Bee in the first clutch, OR it may take another breeding to get the Bee. There is NO guarantee that you will produce a Bee in the first clutch. I have seen big clutches of Spider X Pastel and no Bees, I have also seen 1 egg clutches that produced a bee. Anyway you look at it, it is an awesome project, good luck!
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In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
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