Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This first one is the same one I posted in the bairdi thread below.
What can I say? I like this picture...lol

it is possible a couple of these next few may be reruns also. If so, sorry.

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Man, all those are great, but that top photo...sweet!!

Thanks for sharing

Bill
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1.0.0 Rottie/Malamute/Sheppard "Bear"
0.1.0 Tabby "Cuddle Butt"
0.0.1 Brindled Rat Snake "Templeton"

Very nice emoryis there, Jimmy! Here are a couple pics of my favorite snake. She's a southwestern rat (meahllmorum) from Nueces County, TX. Meahllmorum are considered to be emoryi by some taxonomists. They are not typical of emoryi here in Nueces County (or counties south of here), however, as they can get very large. This female is a little over 4 1/2 ft long and weighs in at 860 grams. I also have a large male that is right at 5 ft and weighs over a kg. Photos are by Terry Cox.

-Toby

Toby

Sweet! Beautiful hazel eyes!

JPD
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat (WV Rescue) "Roberta"

Thanks, I like that eye shot too. My biggest male has orange eyes. I'll try to get a decent pic of him soon.

-Toby

You go with the meahlly's Toby! Here's one of mine, same county.
Todd Hughes

Hey Todd, that's a nice lookin' one, too. Looks pretty dark like my big female and big male, both from se side of Corpus. What part of Nueces did yours come from?

-Toby

West, from Saratoga and Greenwood area.
Todd Hughes

Thanks Todd, I know that's technically the west side, but I always think in terms of the county, and consider that to be e/se Nueces. My dark 1.1 came from a little south of where yours is from. I also have some much lighter meahllmorum from my neighborhood and west down 624 toward Jim Wells County. We seem to have a lot of very dark meahllmorum in s. Corpus.

-Toby

>>Thanks Todd, I know that's technically the west side, but I always think in terms of the county, and consider that to be e/se Nueces. My dark 1.1 came from a little south of where yours is from. I also have some much lighter meahllmorum from my neighborhood and west down 624 toward Jim Wells County. We seem to have a lot of very dark meahllmorum in s. Corpus.
>>
>>-Toby

Toby, that raises the question, "What is causing them to be darker?" That would usually be the environmental factor. What kind of habitat are they living in there? Is it very moist and/or dank (vegetation) in someway, etc? Just guessing, but feel there is something going on there. Thanks...

TC

Terry, There may be some difference, environmentally, between north and south C.C., but not really sure what it is. Maybe a slight difference in temps and humidity? Maybe vegetation, but most of C.C. is heavily developed and has been so for many years, and those areas which are not developed with businesses or residential neighborhoods are mostly crop-land. As you probably noticed when you were here, much of south Texas is plowed up crop-land, devoid of trees or other native vegetation. As you go south and east in C.C., you come to coastal plain with sand dunes and coastal grasses on Padre Island. Maybe much of C.C. was like this before it was developed. It doesn't seem like snakes in coastal areas would evolve to be darker, though. Actually seems like they would be lighter to match the sand and grasses. I can imagine these dark meahllmorum living in heavily wooded areas, like Texas rats, which is sort of what their colors make me think of. It is difficult to say what the area looked like before it was a city. There are lots of photos of C.C. in it's early days but I don't know of any photos, paintings or records of what it looked like before.

As Todd mentioned, these snakes are well adapted to life in the city, and can be found absolutely anywhere in C.C., including the busiest parts of town. The neighborhoods are generally pretty full of trees, many of them non-native, and there is lots of moisture from people watering their lawns. I have heard reports of people finding snakes in storm drains, and would not be surprised if meahllmorum used these quite a bit. There are also lots of ditches, parks and a few golf courses which make great habitats. The city landfill is reported to have good populations of a few different species, including meahllmorum.

-Toby

As you go south and east in C.C., you come to coastal plain with sand dunes and coastal grasses on Padre Island. Maybe much of C.C. was like this before it was developed. It doesn't seem like snakes in coastal areas would evolve to be darker, though. Actually seems like they would be lighter to match the sand and grasses.

I agree it makes sense they would evolve to match the sand and grasses which may be the case in those areas, but I doubt C.C. was like that before development. The snakes are telling us something else, I think.

I can imagine these dark meahllmorum living in heavily wooded areas, like Texas rats, which is sort of what their colors make me think of. It is difficult to say what the area looked like before it was a city. There are lots of photos of C.C. in it's early days but I don't know of any photos, paintings or records of what it looked like before.
>>

I imagine the dark meahllmorum being in wooded or heavily vegetated areas also, maybe with sources of water, even underground. I don't mean to get technical or anything, because I'm not there to look around. But I do have a couple photos from this summer that might help. I'll post them below.

>>As Todd mentioned, these snakes are well adapted to life in the city, and can be found absolutely anywhere in C.C., including the busiest parts of town. The neighborhoods are generally pretty full of trees, many of them non-native, and there is lots of moisture from people watering their lawns. I have heard reports of people finding snakes in storm drains, and would not be surprised if meahllmorum used these quite a bit. There are also lots of ditches, parks and a few golf courses which make great habitats. The city landfill is reported to have good populations of a few different species, including meahllmorum.
>>
>>-Toby

Yes. These are some of the places I'm thinking of. They can't just live under houses. They have to have some habitat and food sources. Storm drains seem ideal for all their requirements: places to hide underground, water, food, etc. Remember that nice big wooded place you took me out to hunt, the Pollywog Pond? That had lots of the stuff meahllmorum would like and seemed ideal for many kinds of herps. Here's a shot of you walking the path....

Another good shot of the habitat there...

At the opposite extreme is the desert scrub habitat with very little water or protective cover that we went through in Duval Co, more inland from the coast, and west of C.C....

I think meahllmorum are still making a living there, but in a slightly different way. I do think the climate changes away from the coast somewhat, due to the moderating affects of the ocean. I think these snakes will be more lightly colored the more deserty the environment is.

Gotta run. Big day today. Thanks for all the extra info, Toby. Hope I'm not getting in too deep here, but it just reminds me of my situation in MI near the coast of the Great Lakes. Later...TC

There are definately meahllmorum at Pollywog Pond, Terry, as well as many other herp species. It is such a good habitat that they are very difficult to find there! haha! That area is very similar to Oso Creek and it's little tributaries on the south(southwest Corpus, technically, but eastern Nueces County) side of C.C. My dark, large meahllmorum pair came from developing areas pretty close to that area, and the female was captured in a large drainage ditch that actually does empty into Oso Creek.

-Toby

>>There are definately meahllmorum at Pollywog Pond, Terry, as well as many other herp species. It is such a good habitat that they are very difficult to find there! haha! That area is very similar to Oso Creek and it's little tributaries on the south(southwest Corpus, technically, but eastern Nueces County) side of C.C. My dark, large meahllmorum pair came from developing areas pretty close to that area, and the female was captured in a large drainage ditch that actually does empty into Oso Creek.
>>
>>-Toby

Thanks for the additional info, Toby. This is definitely going to be a fun problem to work on. Wish I lived closer so I could spend some time looking for various habitats. I really think that's the key and that you have a good variety of habitats in your area.

In my area I study the Eastern massasauga somewhat and the species has a huge range of ground color from deserty light to almost melanistic. I think it's because some of the babies utilize the thick, dark habitat, like cedar swamps, and others utlize the deserty, open habitat, like in the coastal areas of Lake Huron. ASAMOF, I think your massasaugas are the desert massasauga on the barrier islands, like Padre Island, and the Western massasauga more inland and around C.C. (according to Jim H.) That might indicate a big difference in habitat.

PS: My LaSalle Co. meahllmorum came in last night, and now I have three locales to compare (four with your Nueces). They are big babies and look like they will be growing fast. I'll try to get some pics soon.

Terry

That is interesting about the massasaugas, Terry. I have not seen any massasaugas here for years, and have probably only seen a few in my lifetime, so I really don't have any opinion on them. The old field guides say we have both deserts and westerns, but Dixon and Werler have the western restricted to mostly north Texas, and only show desert massasaugas here. We both know how wrong field guides can be, though...

Lookin' forward to those pics of your new LaSalle meahllmorum.

-Toby

Remember Toby that the Oso is brackish, I haven't ever found Pollywog pond but I assume it is also a little brackish being close to the mouth of the Nueces but not nearly as brackish as the Oso. Maybe the saline content could be a factor? That pond looks like the home of the ratsnake muncher, the Texas indigo! Ever see one down there Toby? Maybe that's why the meally's are so hard to find!!!
Todd Hughes

Todd,

Yes, there are indigos in the Pollywog Pond area, as well as other ophiophagous snakes; splendida, oaxaca, M.s.schotti, TX corals, and road runners, raccoons, skunks and feral cats. I still see plenty of meahllmorum on the roads around P.Pond, just very difficult to track down inside the woods and tall grass. There are also diamond-backed waters, blotched waters, atrox, checkered garters, gulf coast ribbons, virginia, rough greens, green anoles, ground skinks, lots of water fowl, etc., so the pressure is not all on meahllmorum to feed the snake eaters. I have found all of these animals in this area, but it is the thick, tall grass that makes it so difficult to find anything, imho. The d-back' waters are the easiest to find as they often lay right along the banks in very shallow water, and they get huge.

The water in the little stream/creek that runs through P.Pond is slightly brackish, but I am not sure about the ponds themselves. They are very close to the Nueces R., so, I suspect they are probably brackish also. Interesting observation, there, on the brackish water...

-Toby

Agreed Terry, the storm drains are good for brumation and lots of rats and water. Also I believe rodent burrows and old abandoned ranch buildings supply the need for habitat, food source and a way to cut dehydration. I look to the stock tanks and drainage ditches as well as semi permanent (man made) water sources and creeks the further north and west I go. I especially like railroad tracks for the buildup of boulders and semi permanent water, most have year round water at bridges.
Todd Hughes

I found the first of my "career" on Mustang Island last month, an adult male dor that either was transplanted in plants or swam some very wide channels. I have never seen any on the islands but know they can swim, and Mustang Island is sparsly populated. I don't know about the light snakes around the sand, as the desert kings from the island are darker with much less patterning there. But the furter west or north you go you start to encounter massive mesquite prairies that turn into oak motts around North Aransas/south Refugio counties to the north and tons of mesquite with very little mixed oaks to the west, so vegetation could be a factor as well as moisture. (my bet) They are by far the most encountered snake besides western ribbons for me, and the neonates probably make good meals for all the uglies down here, Masticophis, Micrurus, and L.t.triangulum. Hardiest of all the rats I have ever owned, but about 1/2 of the adult w.c.'s can have some serious attitudes!
Todd Hughes

Very interesting find in that one on Mustang Island, Todd. I think that would be a good area for some serious meahllmorum hunting. Could be an accidental transplant, as you say (I have witnessed one crawl out of a car's undercarriage in Kingsville, and who knows how long it had been there). Or - maybe there is a (sparse) population of meahllmorum on Mustang Island..? The habitat there is very similar to that found on Brazos Island down by Brownsville, where meahllmorum are known to live. I have never had much luck herping the beaches, but I have not gone at the right times, either, I am sure.

-Toby

Nice looking Emory's, Jimmy, and nice meahllmorum too, Toby and Todd. Here's a male meahlly from Brazos Island....

And another male from B. I....

And a young female from Duval County...

A silver emory female, P. g. intermontana...

Another silver emory, male....

I probably have shown all those pics before. I need to update my photos.

TC

>>And a young female from Duval County...

Wow! She's real stripe-y!

Sweet Meahiiys.

What do you think I would get if I mated one to a Creamsicle?
I've got a big old gal who's a-pinein' for a may-un.

John D

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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat (WV Rescue) "Roberta"

Man, those silver (intermontana) emoryi are nice, Terry! Always like seeing the reverse stripe and other meahllmorum, too.

-Toby

That last girl is FAR OUT!
Todd Hughes

Jimmy, I love that first picture. A great head shot plus lots of other interesting things about the snake.

I think this strand raises a good question, or several..."What do we consider an Emory's rat?" Also, "Who is working with Emory's rats at this time, and which ones?"

In the old days we used to consider anything not a corn snake to be an Emory's rat, or Great Plains ratsnake. Today we have the northern plains ratsnakes, emoryi, the southern plains ratsnakes, or thornscrub rats as I like to call them, meahllmorum, Slowinski's corn, slowinskii, and the western plains ratsnakes, intermontana. There's also all kinds of local variations and intergrades.

Recently I have heard of several people finding Slowinski's corns in se. Oklahoma. We used to call anything west of the Mississippi a GPR. This snake is closer to a corn snake than a GPR, but I'm sure some of our so-called hybrids are from crosses with this stock. The Texas corn, slowinskii, was also considered to be an Emory for a long time. Venturing further south, we have the meahllmorum, which we're finding to be quite variable and different from Emory, which have also been considered to be Emory's rats in the past. Then there's the intermontana, and so on.

Now I'm thinking of all those creamsicles and cinnamons out there in the hobby and wondering what kind of genes do they really have? Obviously they're not pure corns, but how many are also not even Emory's rats? I think we're going to see some folks specializing in "western corns", that is GPR's, plus intermontanas, meahllmorums, etc, in the future, and crossing with corns to make special crosses, or locality crosses, etc. In other words, your creamsicle might be very different from my creamsicle. We might even come up with some forms that we can change the name on because they are so different from normal creams, etc.

Just some wanderings and thoughts on Emory's rats. My apologies to the corn snake folks, who consider it to be a stand alone species, whereas I see them as mearly a subspecies in the corn snake group.

Cheers...TC
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Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

>>Jimmy, I love that first picture. A great head shot plus lots of other interesting things about the snake.
>>
>>I think this strand raises a good question, or several..."What do we consider an Emory's rat?" Also, "Who is working with Emory's rats at this time, and which ones?"
>>
>>In the old days we used to consider anything not a corn snake to be an Emory's rat, or Great Plains ratsnake. Today we have the northern plains ratsnakes, emoryi, the southern plains ratsnakes, or thornscrub rats as I like to call them, meahllmorum, Slowinski's corn, slowinskii, and the western plains ratsnakes, intermontana. There's also all kinds of local variations and intergrades.
>>
>>Recently I have heard of several people finding Slowinski's corns in se. Oklahoma. We used to call anything west of the Mississippi a GPR. This snake is closer to a corn snake than a GPR, but I'm sure some of our so-called hybrids are from crosses with this stock. The Texas corn, slowinskii, was also considered to be an Emory for a long time. Venturing further south, we have the meahllmorum, which we're finding to be quite variable and different from Emory, which have also been considered to be Emory's rats in the past. Then there's the intermontana, and so on.
>>
>>Now I'm thinking of all those creamsicles and cinnamons out there in the hobby and wondering what kind of genes do they really have? Obviously they're not pure corns, but how many are also not even Emory's rats? I think we're going to see some folks specializing in "western corns", that is GPR's, plus intermontanas, meahllmorums, etc, in the future, and crossing with corns to make special crosses, or locality crosses, etc. In other words, your creamsicle might be very different from my creamsicle. We might even come up with some forms that we can change the name on because they are so different from normal creams, etc.
>>
>>Just some wanderings and thoughts on Emory's rats. My apologies to the corn snake folks, who consider it to be a stand alone species, whereas I see them as mearly a subspecies in the corn snake group.
>>

I'm a corn snake "folk" lol and I still believe emoryi to be a sub species of corn.
But, the killer part is, we will never know how many of our creams, rootbeers, cinnamons and whatever came from emoryi, intermontana or meahllmorum.
A lot of people, especially corn people like me, didn't realize there were the separations.
Unfortunately they were all emoryis or simply great plains rat snakes to us.
It is also unfortunate that I don't have any more information concerning mine other then the simple fact they were sold to me as emoryis.
Of course with all the changes in taxonomy going on you never know what the hell you have any longer.
look at the obsoletas. Now there is what? Eastern, Midland and Western or something like that? and I don't even know if they are still obsoleta.
and then of course we still have all the pantherophis stuff going on.
So how do we actually differentiate bewteen emoryi, intermontana and meahllmorum?
You seem to have examples of each, is there any way you could post comparison pics?
Like a shot with all three together and a little bit of explination as to the differences?
I know that is a big request but you seem to be the person most
capable of explaining those differences.
by the way..still got that big male meahllmorum?
And a follow up to that question...If I were to breed it to a cinnamon would I still call the hypo hatchlings cinnamons or be more specific and list them as hypo/emoryi/meahllmorum
(cinnamon toast maybe...lol)

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

>>I'm a corn snake "folk" lol and I still believe emoryi to be a sub species of corn.
>>But, the killer part is, we will never know how many of our creams, rootbeers, cinnamons and whatever came from emoryi, intermontana or meahllmorum.
>>A lot of people, especially corn people like me, didn't realize there were the separations.
>>Unfortunately they were all emoryis or simply great plains rat snakes to us.
>>It is also unfortunate that I don't have any more information concerning mine other then the simple fact they were sold to me as emoryis.
>>Of course with all the changes in taxonomy going on you never know what the hell you have any longer.
>>look at the obsoletas. Now there is what? Eastern, Midland and Western or something like that? and I don't even know if they are still obsoleta.
>>and then of course we still have all the pantherophis stuff going on.
>>So how do we actually differentiate bewteen emoryi, intermontana and meahllmorum?
>>You seem to have examples of each, is there any way you could post comparison pics?
>>Like a shot with all three together and a little bit of explination as to the differences?
>>I know that is a big request but you seem to be the person most
>>capable of explaining those differences.
>>by the way..still got that big male meahllmorum?
>>And a follow up to that question...If I were to breed it to a cinnamon would I still call the hypo hatchlings cinnamons or be more specific and list them as hypo/emoryi/meahllmorum
>>(cinnamon toast maybe...lol)
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
>>"Resistance is futile"
>>Jimmy Johnson
>>(Draybar)
>> Draybars Snakes
>>
>>_____

Let's see if I can follow all that.

Jimmy, Emory's have always been Great Plains rats to me too, up until a few years ago. Now with the Pantherophis classification, and also the choice of guttatus or emoryi or slowinskii as the species, we have lots of confusion with the scientific names and taxonomy. However, the snake is what it is, and all these GPR's are different according to their localities and habitats. There's a lot more variability than what I have at this time, but I'll try to show some with a little explanation. Sorry I can't put them all in one photo.

This is a neonate Great Plains ratsnake, Pantherophis guttatus emoryi, from Kansas stock, that I almost bought last year...

This is what I'd call an Emory's rat now. They occupy the Great Plains down to northern Texas, then intergrade with meahllmorum in central and western Texas. Emory's rats seem to give way to Slowinski's corns in s.e. Oklahoma and the corns in Arkansas may also be slowinskii. More needs to be done on those. The corns in MO and IL need more work too, imo.

Next pic is my male Brazos Island ratsnake, when very young. Brazos Island is on the coast of Texas very near the Rio Grande and Mexico. This form is classed as P. g. meahllmorum, but a lot is going on with the coastal forms and genes from slowinskii could be filtering down into them...

Toby's huge males from Nueces Co. are from a little further north than my B. I. rats, but are still meahllmorum. They could have some influence from slowinskii, however. These rats get to a huge size, as Toby pointed out, easily topping 1,000 grams.

The next pic is also a meahllmorum, a very young female from Duval Co, TX. You can see she is much lighter in color and has a somewhat aberrant pattern...

The meahllmorum from west of the coast live in desert scrub habitat. I call them thornscrub rats. My guess is that's the reason for the differences from the coastal meahllmorum.

Another view of a B. I. ratsnake, showing venter which tends to have much less spotting than emoryi, but can have lots of spotting too...

The main differences bt emoryi and meahllmorum and slowinskii, etc, are usually given in ventral scale counts, number of blotches, and other things you can count or look at, but I think you should look at overall size and color/pattern to help with i.d.

An intermontana, P. g. intermontana, if you recognize this subspecies, is usually easily distinguished from normal emoryi by it's small size (up to 36 inches), it's large number of narrow blotches, and sometimes it's color/pattern. Here's another pic of one of mine...

There are also other western plains ratsnakes that are not from the isolated range of intermontana which are also different from emoryi.

I don't happen to have any Slowinski's corns on the web at this time, so can't show those, but I will say they resemble corns much more than emoryi, in spite of having coloration similar to emoryi. There's a lot of variation in Slowinski's corns too, as the habitat changes from OK to TX to LA, etc. Some of the examples of corns from coastal TX could be intergrades bt. Slowinski's corns and thornscrub rats. Here's a DOR meahllmorum from Refugio Co, TX, that looks like an intergrade bt meahllmorum and slowinskii...

This is a look at the venter of the same snake...

Notice the increase in number of spots or blotches on the venter. It was a gravid female too. Wish I could have found her alive.

I stopped at Toby Brock's in June and took a few pics of his collection. Here's his big female from Nueces Co, TX...

You can see she has an intermediate number of ventral spots. These meahllmorum are awesome ratsnakes, especially if you like large corns.

Here's another pic of my rootbeer corn, Jimmy. He's a cross bt a generic hypo corn and a Brazos Island rat...

I call him a thornscrub/corn cross (hypo het). Cinnamons from him I would just call cinnamons, if he was bred to a cinnamon of unknown locality.

I do plan on sending the above snake to you, Jimmy, pretty soon. I wish I had a female to breed him to. I hope he makes some nice babies.

Terry
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Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

in temperments between the different emories? And if so, would you notice a difference in temperments between any creamsicles that were made from cornsnake X slowinski, or cornsnake X meal......(can't spell that one).
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

>>in temperments between the different emories? And if so, would you notice a difference in temperments between any creamsicles that were made from cornsnake X slowinski, or cornsnake X meal......(can't spell that one).
>>-----
>>phflame
>>kingsnake.com host

Yes, I think there is a difference in temperments, depending on individual specimans, which subspecies, w/c or cb, etc. If you compared an intermontana to a meahllmorum you should see some behavior differences, not just because meahllmorum is fiestier, but also because meahllmorum is more secretive, has a longer active cycle, is more nocturnal, etc. I haven't kept slowinskii, but I would imagine there are some slight differences. These are considered a different species by many (see Dixon and Werler). I think they are quite close to meahllmorum, however. The Emory's rat would be comparable to the intermontana, depending on where they came from, how far north.

As far as recognizing which subspecies is in your creamsicle or cinnamon by the way they act, I think this would be a hard task. I haven't kept that many creamsicles or cinnamons and the ones I've had were quite awhile back. I do think you can gestalt the snake, however, look at everything at once. When you look at size, color/pattern, scalation, behavior, body and head shape, etc, along with temperment, you might have some idea. Most creamsicles are more corn than Emory, so it depends also on the mix.

Also, you might want to consider clutch size, something we haven't mentioned, yet. I think it's interesting that creamsicles have smaller clutches than guttatus, emoryi have smaller clutches, in general, than creamsicles. Meahllmorum, on the other hand, have medium sized clutches, usually around 10-12 from what I've heard. Emoryi have around 6-7 as pretty normal clutches. Egg size too is a difference. I think this is an area that hasn't been studied much. For all the arguing bt the various taxonomists and hobbyists, very few have kept and experimented with specimens from areas where intergradation should be taking place.

Excellent question which should raise more questions and spur some folks into activity who are very interested in these snakes. Thanks...TC

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Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

Terry,

Fascinating stuff. I am particularly intrigued by the clutch-size question. I wish I had kept better records. My recollection is that my female's first clutch was 7 large eggs. while her last was 22 eggs, also large. In addition, all of the resulting hatchlings were large and robust compared to neonate corns. Overall, about 70% hatched successfully. That rate would have been better if I had been a better keeper.

Thanks Again!

John D.
-----
I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat (WV Rescue) "Roberta"

>>Terry,
>>
>>Fascinating stuff. I am particularly intrigued by the clutch-size question. I wish I had kept better records. My recollection is that my female's first clutch was 7 large eggs. while her last was 22 eggs, also large. In addition, all of the resulting hatchlings were large and robust compared to neonate corns. Overall, about 70% hatched successfully. That rate would have been better if I had been a better keeper.
>>
>>Thanks Again!
>>
>>John D.

John, the second piece of info is the most important. Twenty-two is a large number of eggs, and indicative of a corn snake, not a GPR. However, the largeness of the eggs is likely due to the emoryi influence in your creamsicle line. I'm not sure how big the eggs were, but you said bigger than a normal corn's. Just to let you know how big an Emory's eggs can be, the eggs in my Emory's clutch this summer measured 2" X 1" for the most part. They were huge. There were only 7 in the clutch. The babies hatched Aug 6th and are eating two pinks at a time already.

TC

>>John, the second piece of info is the most important. Twenty-two is a large number of eggs, and indicative of a corn snake, not a GPR. However, the largeness of the eggs is likely due to the emoryi influence in your creamsicle line. I'm not sure how big the eggs were, but you said bigger than a normal corn's. Just to let you know how big an Emory's eggs can be, the eggs in my Emory's clutch this summer measured 2" X 1" for the most part. They were huge. There were only 7 in the clutch. The babies hatched Aug 6th and are eating two pinks at a time already.
>>
>>TC
>>

Wow - those are BIG eggs! My gal's wern't quite that big and there was some variation, but they were fiarly large. Also, the 22 egg clutch was produced when she was 4 ft long. One reason I liked working with the Creams was just that - the robust neonates. Most of them started right in on pinks and were up to 2 at a time w/in a couple months.

Wish I'd held back a few. Ce la vie.

John D
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat (WV Rescue) "Roberta"

I am seeing a more Texas rat shaped head on some of these guys down my way and the more promenant eye bulge the further south you go with these guys. Not freakishly so but they do have a more bulging eye thing going on and a longer, more slender snout than, say the G.P.R.'s from midwest Texas. Darker in color, the midwest and upper Texas samples seem to have a prairie rattler type patterning and an almost greenish tint in them. Or do I just need stronger glasses?! LOL! All in all I think they go lighter to darker the further south you go and I have seen a couple of partial stripers in others w.c. collections from down my ways as well.
Todd Hughes

>>I am seeing a more Texas rat shaped head on some of these guys down my way and the more promenant eye bulge the further south you go with these guys. Not freakishly so but they do have a more bulging eye thing going on and a longer, more slender snout than, say the G.P.R.'s from midwest Texas. Darker in color, the midwest and upper Texas samples seem to have a prairie rattler type patterning and an almost greenish tint in them. Or do I just need stronger glasses?! LOL! All in all I think they go lighter to darker the further south you go and I have seen a couple of partial stripers in others w.c. collections from down my ways as well.
>> Todd Hughes

Todd, I agree. That's one of the things that has attracted me to the South Texas meahllmorum. They do have a different shaped head, more triangular, more elongated, imo. They also have a different body size and shape, and color/pattern. Toby and I both have three yr old females bt 400 and 500 grams. They are still growing at a fast rate, are extremely strong, and shaped more like a ratsnake than emoryi or guttatus, imo. I agree about the eyes too. The coloring is variable, depending on conditions, I think. My Brazos Island male was very light to start and is now darkening some. The female was very dark and is now lightening some. But they are not greenish, like the emoryi. They seem to be more brown/grey. Meahllmorum has blotches that tend towards splitting and in the more westerly pops this is often seen as partial striping from what I've seen. The reverse-striped morph has been offered as a mutation at one time, but I believe it's quite variable and not a true mutation, but we'll see in the future.

Terry

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Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

Jimmy if you do, I will hafta call mine Cinnamon toast crunch! (thornscrub under foot) LOL!
Todd Hughes

Holy Crap!

T.C., you raise some interesting and exciting possibilities!

The whole concept of Creamsicle being guttata_x_emoryi is called into question!

If so, then what have I got? (Besides one fat-ass Creamsicle!)

Also, the pics posted show many individuals with tendencies towards stripes and zigzag, something I noticed in a fair proportion of my hatchlings over the years. Could these be different mutations than the ones already existing in guttata?

This is so cool!

John D

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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat (WV Rescue) "Roberta"

>>Holy Crap!
>>
>>T.C., you raise some interesting and exciting possibilities!
>>
>>The whole concept of Creamsicle being guttata_x_emoryi is called into question!
>>
>>If so, then what have I got? (Besides one fat-ass Creamsicle!)
>>
>>Also, the pics posted show many individuals with tendencies towards stripes and zigzag, something I noticed in a fair proportion of my hatchlings over the years. Could these be different mutations than the ones already existing in guttata?
>>
>>This is so cool!
>>
>>John D

John, the reverse-striped female meahllmorum I posted is just an aberrant pattern. I don't believe it's a mutation. It's likely the pattern variations you're seeing from your creamsicle are from the corn. Your cream looks like it's mostly corn. When outcrossed, creams are usually bred with corns, and eventually you get a new cream that's more corn than Emory. I'm afraid you'll never know what's in your creamsicle. But you could get a western corn and outcross your cream, getting a new cream eventually that would have something in it you know for sure.

Terry
-----
Ratsnake Haven...researching ratsnakes since 1988

Ratsnake Haven Group...an information providing list site.

Thanks Terry!

An excellent explanation.

Make s me consider getting a male emoryi...

Regards,

John D
-----
I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat (WV Rescue) "Roberta"

Here are my two big Nueces County meahllmorum males. First one is at 5 ft and over 1 kg. Second one is at 58 inches and over 950 grams.

-Toby Brock

What I like best in those and all of them from our area is the wide variation in the same county! Toby lives in the north of Corpus by the mouth of the Nueces river. I live in the mid east of the city by the bay but closer to the west side of town. We can find them in the city at all locations and they are one of the most common snakes seen by me every year. They brumate under the foundations of homes and are seen quite frequently as dor's in the city limits. But you get these light colored animals with nicely spaced round blotches and the beautiful dark animals with saddles. No doubt, Texas corn but they really have a wide variety oflocality patterns. Superb mousers and bird whackers, and some can even eat cotton rats! The kings of the southern corns for sure! I think there are a few 6 footers out there somewhere!
Todd Hughes

>>What I like best in those and all of them from our area is the wide variation in the same county! Toby lives in the north of Corpus by the mouth of the Nueces river. I live in the mid east of the city by the bay but closer to the west side of town. We can find them in the city at all locations and they are one of the most common snakes seen by me every year. They brumate under the foundations of homes and are seen quite frequently as dor's in the city limits. But you get these light colored animals with nicely spaced round blotches and the beautiful dark animals with saddles. No doubt, Texas corn but they really have a wide variety oflocality patterns. Superb mousers and bird whackers, and some can even eat cotton rats! The kings of the southern corns for sure! I think there are a few 6 footers out there somewhere!
>> Todd Hughes

Todd, as you know, there's a lot of variety in habitats around Corpus Christi and Nueces Co. I've talked to Toby at length about this. The desert scrub meets the humid coast with it's river mouths and the north meets south in the area just north of C.C. I think the amount of accessible water could play a large role in their lives. Also remember, people are watering their lawns and providing other conditions the snakes like, such as gardens and trees, etc. I can see why the snakes like it there. Toby and I even did road cruising in a northern suburb, haha! I would like to get some examples from counties ne. of C.C. in hopes of getting intergrades with slowinskii. Luck with those.

Terry

Terry, I'm with you on that one. Love to get a pair from Refugio or even a little more ne toward Port Lavaca. That DOR gravid female we found in Refugio would have been great if we had gotten her alive.

-Toby

>>Terry, I'm with you on that one. Love to get a pair from Refugio or even a little more ne toward Port Lavaca. That DOR gravid female we found in Refugio would have been great if we had gotten her alive.
>>
>>-Toby

I'm with ya on that one, Toby. You guys have Nueces covered pretty well. I'd like to find out if slowinskii is having some influence on the meahllmorum up towards Port Lavaca, so anything between there and Nueces would be interesting. I believe a slowinskii has been reported from P.L. already from someone. Please keep me posted on any finds in that area. Thanks...

Terry

>>I'm with ya on that one, Toby. You guys have Nueces covered pretty well. I'd like to find out if slowinskii is having some influence on the meahllmorum up towards Port Lavaca, so anything between there and Nueces would be interesting. I believe a slowinskii has been reported from P.L. already from someone. Please keep me posted on any finds in that area. Thanks...
>>
>>Terry
>>
>>

I am also interested in possible intergradation between meahllmorum and slowinskii. I plan on making a trip northeast up the coast pretty soon, and doing some intense cruising. I also may try to get out northwest to the other extreme of meahllmorum country (according to Dixon and Werler, anyway), because I am also interested in intergrades with emoryi and meahllmorum. I will keep you informed on anything I find.

-Toby

>>>>I'm with ya on that one, Toby. You guys have Nueces covered pretty well. I'd like to find out if slowinskii is having some influence on the meahllmorum up towards Port Lavaca, so anything between there and Nueces would be interesting. I believe a slowinskii has been reported from P.L. already from someone. Please keep me posted on any finds in that area. Thanks...
>>>>
>>>>Terry
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>I am also interested in possible intergradation between meahllmorum and slowinskii. I plan on making a trip northeast up the coast pretty soon, and doing some intense cruising. I also may try to get out northwest to the other extreme of meahllmorum country (according to Dixon and Werler, anyway), because I am also interested in intergrades with emoryi and meahllmorum. I will keep you informed on anything I find.
>>
>>-Toby

Toby, gotta run, so I'll talk to ya more about this later, but the closer to Port Lavaca, the better, I think, 'cus we need to prove the intergradation going on, and near P.L. we have a chance for meahllmorum, slowinskii, and intergrades. Have a good 'un.

TC

Toby, I will keep my eyes peeled for a Refugio pair for you. Right outside of Ref. I have seen many, many, just never collected any.
Todd Hughes

Hey Todd, I am interested in any you see or catch between Refugio and Port Lavaca... I am planning on doing some cruising in that area next weekend or during that week (hopefully my vacation comes through). Let me know if you want to go. I like October/November for rat snakes in s.TX, and have seen many out in the daylight, mainly late afternoon.

-Toby

>>Hey Todd, I am interested in any you see or catch between Refugio and Port Lavaca... I am planning on doing some cruising in that area next weekend or during that week (hopefully my vacation comes through). Let me know if you want to go. I like October/November for rat snakes in s.TX, and have seen many out in the daylight, mainly late afternoon.
>>
>>-Toby

Toby, remember, meahllmorum can be active in winter too. Gus Renfro, from Brownsville, found meahllmorum in several counties surrounding the R. G. Valley in January. I think they can be found under a/c, even when they are dormant. Good luck....

Terry

Hey Terry, Yep, I have caught them in the winter months here also. under cover and out and about when the weather is warm. I have a juvenile (yearling +) that I caught last December 26th, on the road near my house. Here she is again...

-Toby

>>Hey Terry, Yep, I have caught them in the winter months here also. under cover and out and about when the weather is warm. I have a juvenile (yearling ) that I caught last December 26th, on the road near my house. Here she is again...
>>
>>-Toby
>>

She's lookin' good, Toby. She'll likely be a big bruiser along with others you have someday. I'm thinking a size record for Great Plains rats will come from your area, if it hasn't already. I think the record is around 180 cm (talk about a monster).

Good luck this winter. You might want to sneak a few pieces of a/c into the Pollywog Pond area for winter herping.

Terry

Terry, do you want Aransas, Refugio, san Patricio, Goliad, Calhoun,Victoria, and/or Jackson county individuals? That is about my range for work, although I may happen further north next spring. Is your new acquisition from La Salle county or La Salle the city about 30 miles east of Victoria? Pull out the ol map or google earth and let me know!
Todd Hughes

>>Terry, do you want Aransas, Refugio, san Patricio, Goliad, Calhoun,Victoria, and/or Jackson county individuals? That is about my range for work, although I may happen further north next spring. Is your new acquisition from La Salle county or La Salle the city about 30 miles east of Victoria? Pull out the ol map or google earth and let me know!
>> Todd Hughes

Todd, the area around Port Lavaca would be best, Calhoun, Victoria, or Jackson Counties. Matagorda would be good too, if you get up that far. Let me know if you find any.

My new acquisitions came from La Salle County, desert scrub country. Nice big babies and pretty light colored. They fit with my Duval Co. female.

Thanks...Terry

Todd, Yeah, these are one of the most common and prolific snakes in our area for sure. That is one of the things about them that is so interesting to me. Also, their tendency to get huge, and I agree that there are some six footers out there. I have seen a few definately over 5.5 ft. I saw one huge DOR fairly recently down in Kingsville. It was so big that I thought it was a bullsnake, until I got a closer look. I know that one was over 5.5 ft and wish I'd had a camera and a measuring tape with me. Also saw a DOR 4 footer in front of Moore Plaza recently. That had to have been a tough and smart snake to survive to that size in that area.

-Toby

ps. Here's a yearling from my neighborhood.

For those who don't know, Moore Plaza is our largest shopping center surrounded by our largest freeway and completely surrounded by suburbia! Yeah, that was a crafty critter to dodge all the traffic! Sewer crawler? I know they brumate down there!
Todd Hughes