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No other explanation for this herping experience of mine. I have two adult ghosts that I purchased in 2004. The male ghost which hatched August 2004 came from Mike Alvarez and the female ghost hatched October 2004 came from Kevin Hanley. Both have been aggressive eaters and had put on weight pretty fast in 2004 and 2005. By early Spring of 2006, the ghost female weighed about 475 grams so I decided to mate her after her second shedding post brumation.

By the 1st week of April, she's about 18 months old and weighed around 485 grams and her second shedding after brumation happened on April 16, so mating between the 2 ghosts happened between April 20-25 (four copulation occurences have been witnessed). The male ghost was only a couple of months older at 20 months old.

41-46 days after the mating period, she laid 5 eggs in the evening of June 5...and much to my disappointment, all 5 eggs were yellowish and watery (i.e. slugs). She had lost some 50 or so grams in weight, so I decided to give her a rest and not mate her anymore until next year. The great thing about her was she never lost her appetite and was soon back to her one adult mouse per week of feeding.

By the first week of July, I noticed and felt some bumps as she was crawling on my fingertips. My initial thought was that this was just her ovulating again...but she won't be getting any action from him for sure because I wanted her to rest. By the second week of July, those bumps had turned into lumps and it was apparent that there were eggs inside her. So I thought that these will just be slugs again and she just had to go through the whole process of laying the eggs (but I was praying and crossing my fingers that she would re-absorb the eggs so that she wouldn't have to get fatigued anymore from laying those eggs... that for all intents and purposes would be just slugs).

Anyway, she did her pre-egg laying shed on July 16 and nine days later on July 25, she laid 3 eggs. Much to my surprise, these 3 eggs were clean, white, and certainly looked good eggs to me. I decided to incubate them and after 66 days which was yesterday (September 29th), the first ghost started to crack the shell. Today, she is completely out and her second sibling (3rd egg bottom of the picture is pipping out). The egg on top of the picture has not pipped out yet when I took the picture this morning).

The first ghost hatchling looks really nice, active and healthy and the mother by the way is doing well. This whole time, she only mated between April 20-25 with only one mate (my ghost male). After laying 5 slugs on June 5 and laying 3 good eggs on July 25 without mating her other than the original period above, there could be no other explanation of having successfully hatched so far 2 ghosts other than the phenomenon of sperm retention.

Sorry if the picture is slightly blurry but the first ghost is at the bottom of the pic (she hatched from the middle egg) and the second one is pipping (3rd egg bottom of the pic).

Thanks for reading and looking,

Ray

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RAY

Ray:

Interesting read. That's the kind of surprise we breeders like to have!

Rob

Yup, good surprises are always welcome for sure. It also helps that I document everything, from the size of prey they eat to shedding...much easier to recall what happened several months back.

BTW, nice looking ghost you go there Rob !

Thanks,
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RAY

Ray,
Females can acually retain sperm for four to five years.This is one reason its very important if you are going to use different males for first vs second clutch or even the next year that it be a different phenotype so that its obvious when the clutch hatches.
Example would be I have used amel x amel and then tossed my ghost in for second clutches sometimes to produce triple hets.If they were to hatch out amel instead of wild type I would know that it was retention and the ghost only stimulated her more rather than knocked her up.

Theres also a chance that a clutch could be split up from two males.
Shannon

Shannon,

Interesting to note what you mentioned that females can retain sperm for up to 4 or 5 years. In your experience,

1) do females with history of sperm retention do this over and over again?

2) how often does it happen that a clutch is split from 2 males, with each male mating at 2 separate and different seasons? (since I would never have 2 males mate with one female at the same time)?

Thanks !
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RAY

Ray,

I have had in the past with corns anyway.I have bred like a lavender to a lavender and then the next couple years tried different males and still camr out with lavender babies so I know that the copulation didn't take.I guess it makes the females go through all the motions and they use whatever sperm they have.

Shannon

is it prudent then to find out what types of males did the mother mate the past 4 or 5 years? It would be great if every breeder out there is dilligent enough to know not to "overlap" genotypes of the males so as to be absolutely sure of who the father was based on the offspring phenotype.

I guess for example, if a 5 year old hypo female mated with an extreme hypo this year and the offsprings are non-extreme hypos, and then the past 2 or 3 years, that same female mated with an ordinary hypo male, how can a breeder accurately state that the offspring is from the extreme line (when there is a possibility that the offsprings are from a "sperm retention" of 2 seasons ago with an ordinary hypo male?

Thanks Shannon for any additional input you can give on this subject.

RAY

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RAY

Ray,
Yes,you are accurate with the fact that its important ask alot of questions when dealing with hets and especially multi hets.
Both Dunham and I have done some breeding lones together and we were very carfull to use virgin females or a phenotype that would stand out as the babies were born.
Last year I had bred my ghost to a amel female and had gotten a nice clutch from her.Well,I acually took orders for triple hets and when the eggs hatched they were all albinos.I knew that I hadn't put any of my amel males in with her so she ovulated and I am sure the ghost male stimulated her to produce eggs but he either shot blanks or never acually had a good copulation with her.
I also knew my ghost wasn't het for albino cause I had produced about 30 triple hets before with him x amels.
Anyway,the only way I use a different male now is if there phenotypes allow such a breeding that the babies will determan what fathered the clutch.
Shannon

p.s. thats a great pic of that baby hypo below.

I agree and commend both you and Terry for being dilligent enough to make sure that the genotypes are not mixed up when thinking about the possibility of sperm retention. Did you read the thread below that I posted in response to Aaron's thread?

BTW, thanks for your kind words about the baby hypo pic. Actually, that pic was taken 2 years ago and she hatched 2004 and is now an adult. I have not bred her yet but she will breed next year, hopefully to my extreme male. She has retained zero black tippings and her color after shed is even more deep orange, almost reddish...it's just amazing. She is also the sibling sister of that "odd-ball" patternless female owned by Adam Willich that he got from Kevin Hanley 2 years ago.

Thanks,
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RAY

Ray,
Yeah thats just a great picture.I would like to see her now.Can't wait to see what she produces fr4om a extreme.Good luck and let us know.
Yes,I did see what you said about Aaron's post.Good stuff.
Shannon

The next time she sheds I'll take a few pics and post one in the forum. I can't wait for next year's season.

later...
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RAY

cool,Yes next year will be incredible.We should see things we have never seen.I have a really good chance of producing a visual pearl (triple homo).I also have a good chance at some extreme ghosts.
I hope luck is on my side next year I will need some.
Shannon

Interesting post Ray, I'm happy to hear you got a few Ghosts this year.

This hatchling sure looks sweet, good job...!
Nevo.S
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Soon will establish a new company. The company will be called "Kosher-Snakes.com".

Thanks Nevo, hope your hondos are fattening up quickly for the winter and for breeding next year !
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RAY

Could this not also be an instance of parthenogenesis ("cloning" without fetilization)? That is also known from snakes.
To prove sperm retention wouldn't the only way be by breeding het to het and later getting a visual? Because all parthenogenic babies would have to be clones and you could not get a visual from a het thru parthenogenesis? Or maybe you can, just asking.

Aaron,If I breed a amel x amel and get all amels then decide the next year to breed a ghost x amel and I have good copulations but still hatch out all amels wouldn't this be sperm retention because all the babies should have hatched out wild type (triple hets)?
Shannon

Aaron,If I breed a amel x amel and get all amels then decide the next year to breed a ghost x amel and I have good copulations but still hatch out all amels wouldn't this be sperm retention because all the babies should have hatched out wild type (triple hets)?
Shannon

>>>If the mother was amel and all her babies were amel how would that disprove parthenogenisis.

Aaron,
I just don't by that theory and if so then how would the whole ressesive gene pool be working.Nothing would be het because it wouldn't be collecting any of the other halfs phenotype genes.

What I am saying is if I breed a hypo thats proven 100% het to a virgin amel and all the babies hatch out amel I am to assume that they are all amels het hypo and that I just got lucky on the %.You are saying there is a chance he never even knocked her up and those amels are all normal amels and just a product of the mother only?No Way man.

L8r

No, I would assume exactly as you do that the babies were amel het hypos and that you got lucky on the percent because that does happen far more often than parthenogenisis. I only said to the original poster that his example was not 100% conclusive proof of sperm retention.

Yes,I hear what you are saying but I would only believe that if the snakes had not bred.If a virgin snake lays or gives birth I believe its a higher power at work.
Shannon

I don't think it is parthenogenesis. I've looked on line of what this really means and studies have shown that, one...this is rare although it happens, and two...if it does happen, the offspings will have to be genetically identical (i.e. due to the concept of cloning) with the female. None of the ghost hatchlings that came out were visually identical with the mother or for that matter, even the father that mated with her back in early spring.

Great subject though...but still believe that this is a genuine phenomenon of sperm retention.

Thanks,

RAY

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RAY

Actually I heard no. The babies will not neccessarily be identical patternwise. There has been some discussion on this subject on the hybrid forum and the kingsnake forum. The "experts" said that there are two forms of "cloning" one hyploid the other diploid (or something like that). It was said in one form the babies will not be identical in appearance. I am not an expert so don't take my word for it.

Yup, the concept of parthenogenesis does not necessarily have to be visually identical but it has to be "molecularly" identical. It has also been studied that this phenomenon happens rarely (even though it has been documented once or maybe twice with the pythons) and only happens with "lower forms of animals" such as insects. A study in Amsterdam, if you are interested in this massive study, the link is http://www.kingsnake.com/aho/pdf/menu3/groot2003.pdf#search='snake%20parthenogenesis' also suggested the this parthenogenesis is under the assumption that no mating took place. With my ghost female, it mated with my ghost male just a few months back in April.

It sounds like you are an advocate of parthenogenesis. You have a response thread above to Shannon asking him how his thread response disproves parthenogenesis. So my question to you then is, if you think that parthenogenesis happens to snakes even if they mated, and let's say the offsprings are of visually the same as the mother (i.e, amel father het for something else mated with an amel mother producing all amels babies OR say, an anery father het for something else mated with an anery mother producing all anery babies), would you say that there is a possibility that offsprings are a product of this parthenogenesis? If you say yes, then the offsring have no possibility of hets (from the genetic makeup of the father).

I mean this is so confusing and so "UNWIDELY" supported by the herp experts to be happening in the reptile world, especially snakes. Whereas the concept of sperm retention being used later by the female is widely accepted and has been going on more as a norm than this aprthenogenesis.

IMHO, this parthenogenesis is more of an extreme rarity and one of those nature's freakish phenomenon...and it happens only when Mother Nature is currently bored with the world.

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RAY

I realize parthenogenisis is not commom. It is known from entire populations of whiptail lizards, a couple burmese pythons and a timber rattlesnake that I have heard of.
You said "for sure" this was sperm retention and "there is no other explanation". I do not know one way or the other if your example is parthenogenesis. I think you must admit that no scientist doing a study on either pathenogenesis or sperm retention would accept your information as conclusive proof of either. It would still require genetic testing to be 100% sure. What is likely or possible and what is proven are not the same.
I understand parthenogenesis is the less likely cause.

Yes,I agree.I also know that a rattlesnake at the stanton Island zoo was c/b there and never put with any other snakes ever and then at about 18 years old she gave birth???????
also on the whiptail lizards they are claiming that there is a chance that they can acually change sexes and also with Moniters.I think it was Frank Retes saying he thought you could by a couple babies house them together and you will end up with pairs trios etc.../WHO KNOWS.We have much to learn Young Grasshopper.
L8r

I understand that it is not 100%...that goes without saying. Hey, nothing is a 100% on this planet anyway...even if you do any testing that mankind invented, it is still not a 100% sure. I did not say 100% sure. I only said "for sure"...and that is under the assumption that my ghost female did in fact breed. When people say "for sure" in normal everyday conversations, do they actually numerically 100%????

I think people understand here what I am saying. Enough of this, most of everyone I think here understands the concept that you brought up and how rare it is.
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RAY

Now I feel like I came off somewhat rudely and that was not my intent. I apologize for my lack of communication skills.

don't worry about it...all is good.

Thanks man,
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RAY