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MORE BAD NEWS/BAD PUBLICITY FOR EVERYONE IN THE HERP WORLD. (PLUS, NOT SO GREAT FOR THE POOR GUY THAT GOT BIT!) NEWS LIKE THIS WILL ONLY BRING ABOUT MORE ANTI-HERP LEGISLATION.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/localnews/content/localnews/daily/0805snake.html
OR CLICK HERE

That just ain't good on any level.

First off, if he was bitten trying to feed the snake, he obviously wasn't using the proper techniques or equipment. Why would you ever have your hand (or any other appendage) within striking distance of a Rhino Viper, ESPECIALLY during feeding time? I have kept many Rhinos, Gaboons, Puffs, etc. They are deceptive. Normally sluggish but unpredictable and strike like LIGHTNING, especially to the side, when they are after something. I know another guy who is destined for this fate also. He has some Gaboons and a couple of Rhinos that he has "relationships" with. He FREE-HANDS the Gaboons. These are big Gaboons...he thinks he's had them long enough that they know him and won't bite him. Sorry..it just doesn't work that way. At least he has enough sense not to try it with the Rhinos. One of these days, though...that big Gaboon is going to wake up on the wrong side of the bed, decide it doesn't want to be picked up and fry this guy like a piece of bacon.

Familiarity breeds contempt. Just because a snake hasn't attempted to bite before, people get the idea that it won't ever. That (as evidenced here) can be a fatal mistake. Proper training and coaching in the beginning will teach you not to ever let your guard down, not to ever become complacent or try to take shortcuts. I would hazard a guess that this unfortunate fellow was an untrained keeper of venomous snakes.

I'm no fan of restrictive/prohibitive legislation regarding the keeping of venomous snakes, but that is exactly where this kind of incident will lead us. If we don't police our own ranks, it will get to the point that no one can keep anything more dangerous than a butterfly. I think that legislation such as Florida has regarding the keeping of venomous snakes is probably a good thing. From what I understand, they require a certain amount of time under the tutelage of an licensed, experienced keeper before they will issue a permit. To me, that is preferable to legislation that simply states that individuals cannot keep venomous species. You can bet that more states are going to prohibit venomous snakes in private collections if bites and escapes continue to occur as frequently as they do now. I think training can help this situation.

My condolences to Mr. Peterman's family. It's a very unfortunate accident, but one that can occur when dealing with poisonous snakes.
My question is, did Mr. peterman have the antivenom at his house the way many keepers of poisonous snakes do? This is an even greater tradgedy if this is so.

No, from what I understand, he did not have his own supply of antivenin. Even if he only had a couple of vials on hand that may have made the difference...it may have bought enough time to get more from area zoos.

My understanding of the incident is that when he arrived at the hospital, the call went out to 3 or 4 area zoos, who responded by sending antivenin, and there was some more sent enroute from Miami. Unfortunately, the antivenin simply could not be gotten to the hospital in time. By the time it arrived it was just too late for antivenin to be effective...too much irreversable organ tissue damage had been done by the venom.

Antivenin is very expensive, sometimes around $1,000.00 or more per vial (Crofab has a wholesale price of about $860.00 per vial). Private keepers seldom have it on hand for that reason. If you keep several different genera of venomous animals, and try to stock a minimum of 2 ampoules of each type you need, it can quickly run into many thousands of dollars. Plus, it has a limited shelf life and needs to be periodically replaced (there is the legal expiration date on the label and the "real" one for when it actually gets too old to be effective).

I think keepers of hot reptiles should consider the cost of antivenin to be a basic cost requirement of keeping hots. We all know accidents can happen, even to the best keepers, but these high-profile accidents put all of us at risk of losing our reptiles (not just the venomous species, either). Anything that can be done to minimize the risk and to demonstrate that reptile keepers are responsible individuals should be done. Not having antivenin on hand for a snake you keep in your home is not responsible. Relying on the zoo to give up theirs is not responsible and will not make the zoo a friend of private herp keepers. We could even all be at risk for losing homeowners insurance because we keep herps if insurance companies take note of the media coverage of one of these unfortunate accidents. (This has already happened to people who own certain breeds of dogs that insurance companies deem dangerous, such as Siberian Huskys and St. Bernards!)

v

LOL! I have two Pit Bulls and a Siberian Husky (both breeds on the insurance companies' "dangerous dog" list). I also do rescue. The last time we were shopping for insurance, I had five Pit Bulls and a Husky in the house. They didn't even get around to asking about reptiles! We currently have to have a homeowners policy through a state program that makes homeowners insurance available to people who cannot get insured by a regular insurance company.

First I wanna send a big I'm =( for you, to the Peterman family...and then go on to say that personally only keeping a cobra and a pair of African puff adders for a short period of time really doesn't give me the right to post...but after getting rid of the hots that I did have for about a yr.1/2, I can honestly say that these guys(hot snakes) are a whole different hobbie in thereselves 1. What fun is a reptile if you can't handle it? 2. What fun is a reptile if you have to use some type of grabbing device to handle or feed you reptile...? 3.What fun is there in admiring their colors through tempered glass(that my puff adders would strike at as soon as you got with in striking range)instead of holding and admiring...? 4. I know there are some out there that enjoy a good strike on a rodent just to watch it turn into food...but,just like all other animals out there they have to eat...=) I agree with oldherpers reponse we need more experience in keeping and handling...I mean suppose some of these Hot handlers were to learn how to milk there collection and sell anti venom so that a death like Mr. Petermans could have been avoided,exam. anti-venom a little closer to home...? If that's allowed, or if these handlers are not to scared to handle what they have to help out the growing population of hot collectors out there...? All in all I personally think that Hots should be left for the food chain where ever they originate from and that way all other non venomous reptiles/herpers can enjoy what they have without the worry of it all being banned throughout the US...=) (In my defense as you read this book/reply this is my opinion and you know what they say...(*)everybody has one...LOL!!! laterzzzzzzz

I couldn't agree with you more. I feel many amateur people get into hot herps just for the sheer excitement of being able to brag about owning something so dangerous. Once the snakes are owned and they realize that nothing can really be done with them. It's way too easy to be fooled by a venomous snake. I live in southern california and work with many rattlesnakes (mostly Helleri), and have experienced the false calmness of them. Many times they don't even rattle once detained. This false behavior gives that false assumption that they are a nice snake and can be handled.
I am currently working on a business proposal to try and start up a laboratory that would focus on milking venom for the production of more anti-venom. I also agree that anti-venom needs to be made more available to collectors and hospitals at a more resonable price. Talking with a few of the doctors in my surrounding area, they have informed me that they would have to research where to find venom if I were brought in with a bite. This is valuable lost time that my life would depend upon. There is no excuse for this. More hospitals should have anti-venom on hand in snake populated areas.
It is best to leave the hot herps to the extremely experienced collectors.
In my opinion, if a person wants an agressive snake, let them get a carpet python.
Your article hit the nail on the head.
Jason

Okay... lots of stuff, go into this news story about Michael Peterman's death.

First off... a lesson in news media. Journalists, editors, and yes, producers, are completely STUPID. They're braindead, they have NO CLUE...

And I mean about anything... I don't care what the story is... if you REALLY check it out, you find one grain of truth buried under a TON of utter crap.

So... with that understanding out of the way...

Here's my understanding of what happened.

First off... Michael Peterman was quite experienced with snakes of all flavors, and in fact, was Dayton Ohio Fire Department's main guy for 'snake emergency' calls.

Secondly... any of us with ANY real intersts... know that 'being an expert' isn't a big red S on our chest, no matter the subject... the best shortstops fumble easy grounders once in a while... the best CAN have a bad day... and this includes amateur or professional herp-keepers.

Risk is part of the game, if you want to keep a hot snake.

Wise folks, know how to minimize those risks to a large degree, and act responsibly. I believe Mr. Peterman was one of those people who was responsible.

It was, pure and simple... an accident... Given all of the articles (4) that I've read from the Dayton Daily news (Run a search on Michael Peterman, and you'll get those articles to read for yourself on their site)

I think it could've been just as easy as a lapse in concentration, and everyone is subject to that... a slip of the hook, something in the eye, a sudden sneeze... ANYTHING can cause this. Even a loud noise that startles you.

After Mr. Peterman died... another snake expert went to get that rhino viper, to be taken to another facility where it would be cared for well.

That snake expert, whose brother runs the Kentucky Reptile Zoo in Slade, KY... said even HE almost got nailed by the rhino viper during the process of removal.

Anti-venom supply... Folks... I don't think that was a huge issue... even according to the man that 'rescued' the viper after its owner passed away... UC medical center had some...

(Remember gang... The Cincinnati Zoo, one of the best around, is less than a half mile from UC medical center... and I'm sure the Zoo would like to assure the survival of their keepers if THEY get zapped)

The Kentucky Reptile Zoo, also had quite a supply on hand as well, and it is less than two hours from UC, via helicopter... so spare anti-venom would not be a problem there.

Fact is... the rhino viper is simply put, one dangerous customer... and keeping one is a risky proposition.

Nothing more, nothing less...

Would I keep one? Personally... NO... I'm NOT a trained snakekeeper. I have not studied with well trained persons and gained the skills and knowledge necessary for that kind of a responsibility.

Would I attempt to execute a safe capture of one if it posed a threat?

Yes... with extreme caution... long sticks/brooms, etc... and one very secure container... and first... I WOULD wear snake proof boots/chaps... and second... damn right... I wouldn't get ANY of my bitable parts anywhere near the thing, nor allow the snake to get near em.

Then it would be up to the experts to come and pick it up to give it a safe home.

This is a time, where snake-keepers NEED to speak with great calm and deliberately, to get the facts out... and to give people sound information. And to advise un-trained people to get sound training from within the recognized herp community, BEFORE they EVER dream of getting a dangerous snake.

The reasons are simple...
1.) For the wellbeing of the keeper...
2.) For the wellbeing of the public at large
3.) Last but never least... the well being of the snake.

Take care,
Paul

Let me start by saying I don't mean any disrespect to Mr. Peterman. My heart certainly goes out to his family and friends.

A venomous snakebite from a captive snake does not result from a "bad day", although it can certainly cause one's day to turn bad. There are no accidents, and no bad luck. and no circumstances beyond the keeper's control. A venomous snakebite results from a mistake on the keeper's part, pure and simple. It is the result of:
A) Incorrect or faulty or inadequate equipment
B) Incorrect technique
C) Poor judgement

There are no other causes.

Just because a person is "experienced" with keeping venomous snakes does not mean he or she is using the right equipment and techiques. You can do something wrong for years and get away with it for years. That just makes you lucky. If you do something incorrectly for years, you are still doing it incorrectly. In keeping venomous snakes there only two ways to do things. The right way and the wrong way. Just because you don't get bitten doesnan you are doing it right. I've seen people get away with woefully bad habits and techniques for years. As I said before, they were just lucky. But sometimes luck runs out. If you have your hand in the strike zone of an unrestrained Rhino Viper, you are doing it wrong. If you have your hand in the strike zone of a Rhino Viper during feeding, you are REALLY doing it wrong.

The rules for handling venomous snakes are:

1. Never handle venomous snakes if you are alone. Always have another person within earshot.

2. Use the correct tool for the job. Don't use an 18" cage hook to handle a 6 foot Eastern Diamondback. Don't use 12" forceps to feed a 3 foot Rhino Viper. If the job calls for restraining a snake, go get the tubes and restrain the snake. In other words, there are no shortcuts.

3. Keep yourself (that means ALL parts) out of the strike range at all times.

4. Always keep your eye on the snake and your concentration on what you are doing. Control the HEAD. That's the end that bites. No conversations, no commentaries no showing off. When you are handling tha animal, that's ALL you are doing.

5. Have a well rehearsed emergency plan. It should include the telephone numbers you are to call in an event, the exact route you will take to the hospital and at least one alternate route and some sort of card to take with you to the hospital identifying the species you were bitten by, the antivenin required and the phone numbers of nearby sources as well as any pertinent medical info...allergies, etc. This information is included on my feeding cards, so I put the feeding card in my shirt pocket while I'm handling the snake.

6. Make sure you know the proper techniques. The techniques for handling Elapids is different from handling Viperids or Crotalids. The techniques for handling small snakes is different from large ones. The techniques for handling arboreals is different than for terrestrials.

7. Before you ever open a cage, go over what you are going to do in your head. Locate the snake before you open the cage and keep your eye on him. Already have your tools in your hand and ready.

8. After the snake is placed back in his enclosure, double check all latches and locks.

Mr. Peterman obviously made a mistake. He was bitten on the hand by a Rhino Viper he was feeding, so he obviously had his hand within the strike range. Nobody is perfect, I've certainly made my share of mistakes and sometimes had to pay for them. Every single time though, it was my fault. It was something that I did. I knew better, I had been taught better and did it anyway. It wasn't bad luck, it was a bad decision. We are the humans, and we are the ones that will make the mistakes, the snake is going to react perfectly every time. I was just luckier than Mr. Peterman. The fact remains, though, that if you follow all of the rules every time, you will never get bitten. When you stray from the plan is when you will have an opportunity for disaster to strike.

He was hand feeding this Gaboon. I was told by the nephew of the so called "rescuer". This is just plain stupidity. Apparently he had this Viper for 13 years and "Trusted" it. This is the kind of thing that gets ALL Reptiles banned....come on people use common sense. I mean no disrespect for Mr. Peterman or his family but he for one should have known the proper way to feed and handle a dangerouse animal.

Maybe someone can help me with this (since this topic fascinates me to a degree)...snakes will always be wild animals. IF you handle (or keep) them long enough, venomous or nonvenomous, you're bound to get struck. I realize this as an above average herp keeper and take on that responsibility. However, I don't (&never will) keep anything venemous (or anything over 6-7 feet, where you need multiple people to help with the animal)...but thats just me. A while back I volunteered in a top zoo's herp dept for about 2 years which taught me many things (but by all means I am NOT an expert).
1) I may be wrong so don't quote me...Once a zoo gives up antivenom for an animal, they can not enter or open its enclosure for any reason until a new supply of antivenom is in stock. (this means the snake can go for a while without any care). I may have heard this wrong but someone told me once that some zoo's require the antivenom source to be from the country of origin of the species.
2) and no matter how experienced a keeper is....they ALL seem to show some fear or nervousness (& respect) when dealing with anything venomous. I mean, honestly, who wouldn't be...most all venomous species are very intimidating to even look at. One of the scariest-most adrenaline producing things in a zoo is to watch them go through snake bite drills and not knowing if its a false alarm or the real thing.
3) Herp keepers in zoo's deserve a lot of respect and credit for what they do, b/c you REALLY have to love snakes to put your life on the line for them...and only get paid 30-40K/year.
4) Venomous species in a zoo serve many functions...mostly education. What I don't understand is what function do 'hot' snakes serve in a private collection unless the keeper is contributing to cutting edge research or for antivenom.

I think once someone decides to keep venemous, its no longer a hobby but a serious risk & dangerous profession, & even if you are skilled and on top of your game, everyone, and I mean everyone has bad or off moments. Do private collectors keep additional life insurance policies?

Please note that these are all just my opinions and observations and I do not wish to offend anyone. PLUS, I just watched Discovery channels show where the guy almost died from a rattlesnake bite.

Carl,

Those are quite reasonable, and responsibly worded notes and questions you pose.

I do not know, what the standard procedures are, in an established zoo, for what they do, if they have to send their anti-venom supply to help a member of the public out.

I tend to doubt, that zoos would only keep enough on hand for a single bite to one of their keepers. It's quite likely, in a snakebite emergency, that another keeper may have to step in and assume control of the snake, plus assure the extrication of the bitten individual, from the area the snake's in.

This means... one gets bit... Now another has to intervene and place themselves at some risk for a bite.

So... I'm sure a wise safety officer at a zoo, would insist upon keeping enough anti-venom to meet not just one bite, but perhaps two or three, depending on the snake in question.

Remembering too, the limited shelf life of anti-venom... even crystalized... (2-3 years is a figure I've been quoted)

Remembering THAT... it's would seem to me, as if they'd keep extra, newer AV in stock... (Say, vials that expire next year... and vials that expire two years from now... in order to keep a good stock rotation going, so that they're never without useful AV for a species they handle)

**********

Onto the subject of why people keep hot snakes...

There've been some good articles posted on this subject at many of the popular herp sites.

In short... they add up to..."There's many reasons why... and if you ask any 10 people why they do it... you're very liable to get at least 10 different answers."

I will not question the motives of people, nor deny them the privilege (I say it again, PRIVILEGE, not RIGHT) to keep hot snakes IF they're willing to train for the responsibility, CONTINUE their training under COMPETANT instruction, and they do so in a manner that is safe as possible, for them, the snake, and the public.

Most GOOD hot keepers... have a specially designated snake room, that they have gone over with a fine tooth comb, to assure if a snake gets out of the cage it's in... that it CAN NOT get out of the room without someone holding the door wide open for it.

Most GOOD hot keepers... AVOID freehandling (Putting their grubby hands on or NEAR) their hot snakes as MUCH as is possible.

Most GOOD hot keepers... use the adjoining cage/tunnel concept, so that they can just shift the snake, without removing it from the cage, from one closed off section, to the other closed off section... to enable them to clean the cage worry free. Clean the left side, while the snake's in the right enclosure... then, open the enclosure and coax the snake into the left... close it again... and clean the right one.

WISE hot keepers... NEVER trust their snake not to bite them. NEVER... ALL snakes BITE... that's a fact that wise hot keepers always keep in mind.

Most GOOD hot keepers... EXPECT there may be an emergency some day, and have planned ahead WELL in advance, for everything from a bite, a loose snake, a fire or other emergency that could CAUSE the snakes to be let loose, etc. And they have sound procedures to deal with these possible events, and they follow them immediately and sure handedly when the emergencies DO crop up.

ALL GOOD hot keepers... realize... 1.) their responsibility to the snake 2.) their responsibility to the public 3.) and their responsibility to themselves.

Personally... I think it's HIGH TIME that hot keepers put together some sound and responsible proposals... to offer the politicians.

Such as...

1.) A permit/licensing procedure, that one... establishes a law permitting the keeping of snakes, even hot ones. Two... The training required to do so. Three, Construction standards for snake rooms and cages, that promotes safety, the welfare of the snake, and assures that the snake WILL NOT escape.

2.) This same law, would establish penalties for keeping snakes without proper training, or in unsafe conditions, whether the conditions are unsafe to keeper, public, or the snake.

3.) This same law, would also require, that fire, EMS, and police/disaster service departments having a practicing hot keeper in its jurisdiction, are notified, permitted to inspect for public safety, and cooperated with on the subject of 'preplanning' for a possible snake emergency. (Fire/Police/EMS types, would probably LOVE to know about a snake keeping operation in a private dwelling... especially if they're rolling up on an emergency there. They HATE surprises... especially ones that they haven't had time to train for, because they didn't KNOW they SHOULD'VE trained for em)

I figure it this way folks... if hot-keepers don't get AHEAD of these issues, BEFORE the public outcry to ban hot-keeping starts... Then there WILL come a day, when the only hots you'll see, are in zoos.

So it's in the best interests of hot-keepers to not only police their own ranks, but to advise our political leaders WELL on adopting a standard that satisfies 'public safety', 'snake welfare' and 'keeper concerns', and then assure that RESPONSIBLE legislation is passed, that protects the snakes, and the keepers, and the public.

That's the only hope I see, for hot-keepers to retain their privilage of holding poisonous reptiles in their personal captivity.

Nobody has a RIGHT to keep a wild animal...

Everyone can enjoy the PRIVILAGE if that's what they want to do, and IF they're willing to undertake the training and education, to responsibly keep these animals safely and careingly.

Where I live, right now, there's a city next door to us, and... the powers that be in THAT city, have absolutely BANNED the keeping of MANY animals, including snakes, poisonous or otherwise.

If the public and politicians are not sensibly educated on the subject, and if herp-keepers FAIL to get with the politicians to set reasonable standards or training, care, and safety for the snake-keeping community...

Then heavy handed, ill-advised, overbearing laws, are what we're going to wind up with. This shouldn't be permitted to happen.

So.. snake-keepers... it's up to YOU... to ensure high but reasonable standards are adopted and enforced in training and safety, BEFORE the politicians decide to solve the issue by prohibiting snake-keeping altogether.

Take care,
Paul

I think requiring permits for the keeping of wild animals (or any animal) might be a good idea, if it were reasonable. You hear about animal abuse/neglect all the time, iguanas have been a real sore spot recently because petstores didn't tell customers how to care for them or how big they get. We have licences to drive cars so why not for animals? Course if you've been to dmv recently it might give you an idea of what might happen. Permits require paperwork, which requires employees to handle the paperwork. Then there is enforcing these laws. Banning exotics completely is easier on the government because it doesn't have to mess around with permits, the animals are simply not allowed.
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