Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Recently I have been pretty disturbed by the Kahl strain sunglow market. I have seen some advertised for as little as $2,000 with an average between $2,500 to $3,500. Now I understand the principals of economics and how supply and demand functions in the market place. But have there really been enough sunglows produced to drive the price down to where it is? When you consider the generational work necessary to produce a sunglow and the mean price of Kahl albinos this seems low. A little over a year ago I paid three times the amount that most sunglows are going for now. I paid a higher price for a quality animal from a reputable blood line. However, even my particular blood line has experienced a significant price drop. Do you think that particular "higher end" bloodlines or quality individuals will hold there value or due you think that the apparent current supply will create a melting pot for values? Is the principal of substitution currently this feasible.

I understand that some people prefer the Sharp strain and some people prefer the Kahl strain. Also that the sharp strain's supply is lower and there has been increased interest in the Sharp strain because of the new genetic combination. However, this price drop came about before the recent Sharp strain findings were made public.

This discussion is not intended to turn into a debate about which strain is better. I am just curious what everyone’s opinion is on this topic. Are there any die hard Kahl fans out there who want to speak their mind? Hopefully this does not upset those with the Kahl strain. I have them and I think they are beautiful. I have an albino that I wouldn't sell for less than most "higher end" sunglows are going for. I am just asking as someone who has invested in the Kahl's and who is looking for some reasoning about what is going on.

Thanks for any feed back.

Here is a couple of photos of my Kahl's. Sorry about the old photos. Thanks for looking and thanks for your time.

Photo of Jeff Ronne's pastel albino (Kakl strain). This boa alone answers alot of my questions! Hopefully, you don't mind me posting this photo jeff.

Thanks for any input.

Steve Ihrig - sdi

I am a just a small time fairly unsuccessful hobbyist / breeder. I only keep about a dozen boas and the only show I make it to is Tinley Park. I don't have a good a good grasp on the market other than what is made public at the forum. Maybe I am a "sucker" but I buy what I think is pretty. I am interested to hear from anyone weather you don’t have any Kahls or you have the ability to single handedly flood the market.

Thanks!

2009-2010 Sunglows shouldnt be hard to find for $1000-$1500
Breeders will do as they see fit with their stock.I would sell below market just to move them out,holding out for primo price slows the cash flow doesnt it ?

M/

Hey Steve, I think you asked a great question!
In my opinion, I think that newbie breeders who aquired there animals cheaper than we did...find that selling their animals is not as easy as they thought...really only because they have not got a reputation...That being said, a good reputation can really only come from experience...so my guess is that for some of these people ....these so called high dollar litters are their first litters. Then there are those who just want to capitalize on anyone's money out there and so a few breeders who can produce start selling lower to take the money away from the newbie...then prices fall. The big breeders seem to hold fast to prices...they are content to raise them up if need be...and are not as subject to the fluctuations...
I think if you are set up to hold on to all of your babies and wait for the right money, you will do fine in the long run..
Economic factors where people just need money fast also plays a big role...but I think that once these litters are sold off, the demand for more will build up again.
Overproduction can certainly ruin the market...
Look how cautious everyone has been in buying lately...everyone has a predetermined price in their head and that is what they will wait for....the desire is there, just that people are being very cautious.

All that being said, I also think that there are inflated prices...and when that happens you are sure to see a fall regardless.
I had talked about this some time ago, that what needs to happen is breeders should come up with a price structure...and even a grading chart....that can act as a guide to people wanting to set prices...I know newbies may not abide, but if they could aquire a type of foil seal that assures the animal has been checked or submitted...the buyers would be more apt to buy their stock...sort of like making the U.K.C. or the A.K.C. with dogs etc...
This would not stop everyone but may strengthen our public status accros the country as well.
Just my 2 cents.

Andy Federico
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My take on all this is that is was inevitable to happen sooner or later. You cant expect prices to just stay the way they are for ever. More babys will be produced, and there will be more sellers every year.

That's good it shows our hobby is growing. Prices will go down it happens. The key is knowing it going to happen before you buy. If you bought your sunglow male for 10k and a yearling albino for $2000 at the same time. you have $12,000 in the project. If you breed them this year and you get 20 babys 10 should be Sunglows. If you sell them for $1500 each that's 15k just on Sunglows. You can still sell the remaining albinos for $500 each and that's another 5k. In your first year of production you are already showing a profit of $8000 minus your care costs.

Show me another hobby/business where you can show profit in the first year of production. The most important thing is don't assume you are going to be able to sell your animals for anything close to what you bought them for.

The smartest thing to do in my opinion is pick a combo that you think will be cool, and no one else is going after, and do it for yourself. It will take a long time and alot of dedication but perseverance pays off in the end.

Just my .02 on the subject. Vinnie

I been thinking the same thing for a while now. It's almost like we need a census each year on boa morphs to see what the market value of morphs should be. I know I was surprised this summer after watching sunglows go from $4500-$5000 to 2500, then slowly down to as low as $1900. If seen this trend with all the recessive morphs we have. No one wants to spend bucks on a possible het, or prove them out, or make possible hets anymore; which is leading to the degradation of some of our valuable morphs today and continues to drive morphs costs down into the ground. The truth is, if you have a smoking animal that is above average in costs, don't be afraid to sell it for higher than the expected cost. If people want the good stuff, they shouldn't be afraid to spend the money and truly value the snakes and their potential. Trey Schneller, Schneller Reptiles.

One thing that I think can account for the current price of Sunglows is how many people have the animals to make Sunglows. A-lot of people with 15-25 animal collections have at least an albino and a Dblhet Sunglow. If you have the ingredients to make the cake why go and buy more mix!!! In 03 you could pick up a Albino male and a DblHet sunglow female for about $2.5K-$3K, Sunglows at that time were in the 7K-9K range. It makes sense at that point in time to buy the ingredients for the animal you want to make,instead of buying the actual animal. This also brings back the subject of people getting into snakes for the money side of things and not the love of the animals most of them find out that it is not as easy as seems and you will have to work for your money.

Al Brown/Brown's Boas

If you have noticed everything is dropping in price. Boas and snakes in general are dropping in price due to other factors affecting our hobby, such as the housing market and economy. People are being a little more cautious with purchases thus lowering the asking price on Boas to "move them out". Folks are a little more cautious because they see their home not earning 30% appreciation annually. I am not positive how much this affects "expensive" hobbies but I have a feeling it will contribute to the morphs being a little more affordable. Those are just my thoughts.....But I do think Vinnie has some good points..If you were to look at it lke him then it wouldn't take as much air out of that large investment you made awhile back.

By the way Steve those are some SWEEET Kahl's you posted!!
Here is mine.

Matt Crabe production

DH Sunglow

I agree with most of what has been said already. One other point to be made however is, just how many people out there have the money, or the willingness, to spend THAT much money on a single snake? It is a risk that not all people are willing or able to take. After all they are live animals that can and do die from things completely out our control. Add this to points already made by others in this thread, and you have a shrinking market for that particular morph so the price drops.

Just an opinion.

Kathy

As others have said, there is a limited market for multi-thousand dollar animals. IMO the only ones willing to make such a purchase are either independantly wealthy or are intending to breed them at some point in time.

Now to my thought... at some price point, the morphs will become attractive to average joe snake owner. Those with no intention of breeding, only want to own a really cool looking snake. Maybe at that time the volume of sales will increase and make up some for the lower price per animal?
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I do agree with alot that has been said, but I think alot more thought should go into this....This type of conversation can really help advance this hobby.....it could even make this a unified organization.

I have seen this same talk as most of you have, in the ball python community. They say alot about how don't worry about your $5,000 investment ...you can still sell those hatchlings for $2,000 each and still make a great profit! Yes, that is true...but the downward trend of prices is still going on....What we need to do is figure out what is really causing this trend downward and put stops in place to keep our endevors alive and strong and supported.

If we just coast along like we have been...we will continue to see these trends.

I have invested alot of money in Boas, I am not crying about the market because I really do understand what is going on...that does not meen I know how to stop it just that I can see it...lol...

I am glad for those who have added imput to this.

We do not need the Sky is Falling additude...because I really do not see that as the case...I think the world of Boas and Balls for that matter...is VERY strong...I just think it is being let fall where it falls...so to speak...and this can only benifit the initial breeders, temporarily. We need to put our heads together and come up with a plan that can keep the prices regulated...I really do not want to see Albinos for $200 bucks in a pet shop...If they want low grades for $600 then maybe a grading system could help us to sell at higher levels...BUT we cannot leave the grading up to the individuals...we need a organization to establish rules and such...
I think the big breeders are the ones who should further this type of action as it will surly be a benifit to them and strengthen their position.

There is more...but that's enough right now...lol

My .04 cents....Andy Federico
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i like to hear the(more) rest of it.
the key thing IMO is that the BIG breeders should have a price rule,but alsowe the little man within the hobby.
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toine plompen,,,holland

WWW.PUREBOAS.COM

i like to hear the(more) rest of it.
the key thing IMO is that the BIG breeders should have a price rule,but alsowe the little man within the hobby.

Absolutely right Toine....This Business really is their bottom line...they have the money needed to put things into action...then with our help we get everyone on board....then as new would be breeders enter...as they will either way...they can know the standards set forth and if they don't play by the rules...well you know...lol....

They have to abide by the rules of the organization...

If BIG breeders are smart and work this through properly the organization can pay for itself and a whole lot more!

I think there are alot of people who are tired of seeing this un-wraveled community. We have to allow people in to grow...that is business...but those that come in must be educated as to the process.

Even with Dog breeders....I had a Registered treeing Walker Coon Hound....I had a Lipper bloodline which was known for producing the qualities I wanted in that dog...The organization set forth rules and shows were implemented ...ribbons awarded...and grades were established!

Now I could buy a mutt, but then I have no paperwork to provide others if I breed her...So those may end up in petshops...and the papered animals end up in shows...

Hope everyone SEES MY POINT HERE!

Thanks Andy Federico
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Andy I don't really see how you could regulate prices. This is not racketeering its snake breeding. The market values will be what the market allows. You can tell everyone to sell Sunglows for 5k, but you can't make people buy them at that price.

If you post your sunglows at 5k and no one wants to buy them for that price either you are either going to keep them all or lower the price. You cannot force everyone keep the same prices because a "group" tells them to. Supply and demand is always the biggest factor in pricing, but people will price their animals how they choose based on their personal needs.

It may be very hard or maybe impossible to impliment a organization that will govern the ethics of people ...but I think the big picture of a snake breeders organization is key to all of our success.

Example 1

If you are a breeder and have papered hypos...and someone else is a breeder with the non-papered hypos....

They may both have the same quality hypos but yours have papers...which one would you buy from?

The organization would give integrity to the whole....

Ok, now if we just keep going as we are now...we breed better animals and a year or two from now we have an over-production of the most outstanding hypos to date....what then??

Now remember the lower grades are selling for about $100 at shows and end up in pet shops across the country and so now normals become a sort of rarity...yes you can sell your hypo litters to pet shops cheap, but who wants to do that? That's like saying I will get a room full of normals to breed and sell them to pet shops for $40 bucks each...I can make a living doing that if I want to, but I choose not to...I love the morphs ...the colors.... the differenses....I, like everyone else, wants to make money as well....I think if we all put our heads together we can achieve whatever we want!
I am bringing up questions to get people to think...we need to do something, or ...we will continue to reap what we have now.

Andy Federico
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Lets face it Andy prices are going to drop on EVERY morph and eventually they will have pet quality prices. There is a huge range of prices for Hypos and something spectacular will still get a good price, but I think it is good for the prices on hypos to drop that low. It will give more people an entry level to boa morphs and that can only be a good thing. There will always be high and low end morphs you have to decided what want to breed. For me I will always do a little of both hopefully someday alot of both. It is just naive in my mind to think because you bought your hypos at top dollar they will always be worth top dollar. In regards to "papers" What would these papers state? That my boas are some how better than a boa without papers. The purpose of papers with dogs is to trace lineage to prove an animal of a certain breed is 100% pure. How do you relate this to boas?

As you pointed out the papers for dogs are to prove bloodlines and pure breeds. With premier locality boas, this does exist.

Founder stock comes with CITES from the country of origin, and then there are reciepts and papers each breeder through the lineage provides for their customers, so when someone breeds their animals, they can say they have X from Y, and A from B.

The Chondro Coalition has done a fairly good job of this in their captive gtp lines, this was just a small group of breeders. Nothing regulates markets, but papers do follow bloodlines. All of my locale specific and pure subspecies have papers and can be traced to their founding stock, fairly well if not perfectly.

That is very true I had that same conversation with my wife about people that actually have locality data on their boas and about how alot of green tree python lineages are documented.

I think the benefit there is clear since you are not dealing with a genetic mutuation the genetic background of an animal is very important. One to prove it is 100% pure and two to show what type of animals have been born from this lineage to show the quality of the genetics you are getting. In my mind it is the lack of genetic mutuations that makes the paperwork important in these animals since selective breeding is all you have to change the look of an animal.

Maybe I am just not seeing it, but I don't see where that would help in morphs. With morphs the quality can most times be seen clearly. Your best weapon with morphs is taking alot of pictures of the parents, grand parents if possible and siblings. If I see the parents are georgous and the litter is also that proves the quality of the genetics in my mind and I don't need paperwork that may or may not be fradulent.

Taken from an email I wrote to my dad yesterday:

One thing that really helps boas as a whole, morph or not, co-dom/dom/recessive, is selective breeding. Due to the natural varience and characteristics of boas it is a lot easier to selective breed, with a lot of different possibilties. More and more people are doing this, and people will pay the difference. This is why Kahl Albinos range from $600-$2000 for neonates, Hypos range from $150-$1500, Anerys range from $150-$800, Ghosts, Jungles, Motleys, Bloods, Sunglows, Leopards, everything has a range in price. One interesting thing is how the Hypo morphs are priced.
Hypos have been going down, while demand for their other half has remained strong or increased, such as in Jungles, Motleys, Bloods, and Sharp Albinos. The Sunglows, Hypo Motleys, Hypo Jungles, and Bloody Salmons have all fallen, while the Jungles, Motleys, Sharps, and Bloods are holding. Recently the Blood and Sharps have actually increased. When Bloods were $3500, Bloody Salmons were $20K, now you can get a Bloody Salmon for $15K, but Bloods went up to $7k. Sharp Sunglows can be found under $10k, but Sharps generally went up to $3k. This is also evident in Kahl Sunglows, some are $2,000 while some prime Kahl Albinos are $2,000.

Personally I prefer Kahl Sunglows over Sharps, I just like how they look, meanwhile I prefer Sharp Albinos over Kahls, again I just like how they look.

PS: The portion of the email above was taken from an email related to markets in Ball Pythons and Boa morphs.

and will always fetch a kings ransom. Quality stock and selective breeding is key for short and long term success.

I agree with this 100% If you want better money you have to produce better animals. The only competition seems to be within the average looking animals that are all the same thing. The last group of hypos I had sold so fast at price averages of 800-1000 I barley had time to pick one as a keeper, (they were smokin BTW) but you can buy a regular hypo pretty cheap.. I think essentialy you get what you pay for 98% of the time.

If you are starting a sunglow project, you need to look at it from the beginning and say to yourself how can I make a better looking sunglow. Add in another trait Stripe, arabesque, motley, jungle, etc... This is exactly what the big breeders do, and thats why they always have the new stuff.

People could make what ever designer morph it may be themselves, but if the big guys are already 3-4 years ahead of you and you are trying to play catchup, by time you do catch up, the market is soft. So you have to spend the $ to make the $ in some of those circumstances.

I think folks that have put some real thought into trying somthing different deserve to make the $$ they do.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

I completely agree with this statement. I saw albinos drop as low as $500 this year and sunglows down to $2000. I was very fortunate to have some really nice albinos this year and had no problem selling them for more than sunglows (for the better ones). People will pay more for quality just as I did for the parents of these albinos.

Steve, the sunglow you posted will make fantastic babies and you will have no problem selling them to people like me. Put me on the list!

Matt Crabe

seems a little abrupt but, it is NOT only in Kahls. Pete sold me a het T male for $1500 and the very next spring had a ton at $500. The females aren't coming down though. If i didn't enjoy it I wouldn't do it "just for the money".

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Ty
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

what a great picture. Vinnie

n/p

np but another pic!

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Ty
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

>>seems a little abrupt but, it is NOT only in Kahls. Pete sold me a het T male for $1500 and the very next spring had a ton at $500. The females aren't coming down though. If i didn't enjoy it I wouldn't do it "just for the money".
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Ty
>>Rat Race Solutions
>>www.ratracesolutions.com
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

np but another pic!

-----
Ty
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

The problem is that everyone plays deaf, dumb and blind. I always sit and read the things everyone posts but I never respond because I know that 75% of the people are fake. It’s funny to see someone post about a problem with a boa, then see someone respond like they really care about the animal. Next thing you know, you find out that same person has been stuffing his animals just to get them to reproduce early. When they do produce a litter, I don’t see anyone post about how they could have harmed their boa by their feeding methods, the only thing I see is congratulations on the new litter. What about the breeders who use to preach to wait at least 3 years to breed your females and at least 2 years to breed your males. Many of them now advertise boas that are under 1 year old as “can go this year” or something similar. It has gone from having the best interest of the animal to “I gotta try and produce some morphs” or “I gotta make some money”.

I think that a majority of people use to take their time with their animals and now it seems that people have a sense of urgency to produce. I think this has affected the market big time. And while the interest in this hobby has grown tremendously, I believe that newbies are learning more about the market value of the boas then value of the boa’s life. It seems that a majority of the blame on the market value is going to the new people that just popped up and started producing, but who is to blame for that?

To answer your last question(whos to blame)
The people who paid the Big Bucks in hopes of Big Profits!
Why else would you drop top coinage on the latest snake morph ?
I see/hear many now that are trying to crawfish/excuse/justify/cover up for their foolish cash "deletes" LOL!!They spent $5K wait 2-3 yrs to produce. I waited 2-3 years and got the same for under $1K mine will produce(my invested return) in 1.5 years PLUS!in under 2 years. I continue to produce and go slightly under market cash value rideing the small wave much further. Who then makes a real profit?

Any way you shake it its still envolves $CASH$ and with cash there is greed.Greed feeds/breeds ADDICTION and with addiction comes more of the BS that got you snagged to begin with.
Anyone can beat this game as with any other game.Practice and Self Control!

M/

>>I think that a majority of people use to take their time with their animals and now it seems that people have a sense of urgency to produce. I think this has affected the market big time. And while the interest in this hobby has grown tremendously, I believe that newbies are learning more about the market value of the boas then value of the boa’s life. It seems that a majority of the blame on the market value is going to the new people that just popped up and started producing, but who is to blame for that?

THANK YOU! You see, the people that spent big money (not all) are a majority of the people you see here telling people sorry when their boa dies and yet stuff their boas silly as if they were making a "Super Size Me" movie about boas. They are the ones that created a process of rushing their boas and now that new people come in here and do the same and produce right away, people have the nerve to complain because there is a large number of available animals. I think the people complaining (again, not all) are the ones that picked their poison and now we have to deal with "the price game".

People are going to produce no matter what but if people really gave a crap about their animals instead of just putting on a show then many of the new people would have follwed the same ethical path and I really do believe we would not have as many boas available as we do now. Money got the best of people and this is what you get.... DON'T COMPLAIN!

You started out OK,the thread actually made some sense here and there.
BUT......
Suggesting a Breeders Union(organization)in a "Trend Based,Supply/Demand cash profit "HOBBY" is where you slipped and busted our ass'ets:-
Cant happen,Wont Happen so might as well grab another beer.....
Review the recent History of the top 3 "Trend Hobbies" in the last 20 years.
Baseball cards
HotWheels
Beenie Babies
Barbie
Simpley research "MATTEL" and their recent play/profits in the above mentioned time frame/hobbyies.Only common people back then that made a profit were the ones that jumped on the free stock shares offered from eBay.All the Big Profit players in their respective venues busted out due to a lack of vision outside their "pipe dreams"(investments).The ones that understood early on learned to basically hit and run.Continually rolling profits to the next level of purchaseing(produceing) then getting it to market.If you get lucky do it again,then start advanceing towards the next level. Trying to milk something for all its worth is foolishness and will always come back to bite you.
The Definitive word for that is " GREED "
MORPH SNAKES are no different!! The last FIVE CONSECUTIVE YEARS PROVE IT!!!(another 5yrs will confirm it)
The further a CASH HOBBY progress's the weaker the market and marketable item(s) becomes."SUPPLY"
New stock(items) must be introduced to keep/satisfy the gullable gotta have it now members of the modern world,who without some trendy icon in their possession believe they have no social standing or self worth in society."DEMAND"

Without fresh stock the lemmings will not follow !!Heaven forbid someone should have a measure of "self control" wait till the "New" wears off an item before takeing rent money to "Invest" in something so unstable.LOL!!

You think the BIG BREEDERS are going to some how be pressured in any sort to slowing what they have going for the sake of the "small" Breeder market ?
Personally I wouldnt play a hand of poker with 90% of whats "assumed" as reputable people in the pet trade today.
In the herp market as well as poker, you better learn to play your own hand!Going "ALL IN" on a Morph bluff might cost you your place at the table.

Just thinking out loud .....

M/

I like the Kahl and Sharp strain both equally. They both have good traits and are worth having.

I also think that the prices droping is a good thing. Yeah, I know that a lot of people paid big bucks for their animals a couple of years ago...I feel really bad for them, since the price is droping so drastically. Still..... Most should have seen it coming. So many people are breeding their animals younger and younger. There's a mad dash for cash going on ya know. Espcially since the number of people with large amounts of money to spend on snakes is starting to run out. This is bad for the market and every worse for the boas.

Back to why I think it's a good thing.

I think it's good because people who really want these morphs will be able to afford them. Not everyone that purchases a morph plans on breeding it. There are actually people out that that want them for a "PET". Eventually they'll be able to afford one without taking out a second mortgage on their home. I think this is good.

I also think it's good, because Breeders/hobby breeders won't have "dollar signs" in their eyes when it comes to breeding. They'll look at their boas and see the AMAZING ANIMALS they really are and not a way to make a "quick buck". I think this is very good.

OK, there could be a down side to the price drop too. If the prices get too low they could become "disposable animals". I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about there.

Also as far as the "market" goes.... The market will take care of it's self. Some years it will go up and others it will go down. It will "never" be as high as when the morphs were new, but I know every one saw that coming.

I said the same basic thing several days ago (but you did say it better )

I honestly think the lower prices in the long run will be good for the hobby. More sales to average joe herper, not just people who want to breed boas.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Real quick, I have never posted here before but have lurked around for a year or two now. I love these forums and have learned a ton here but was always just too lazy to sign up and post. But this topic finally got me to sign up. I am just a regular guy who has been in the hobby for about 12 years now, boas for 3, so this is just my opinion.

My wife and I had a similar discussion when I got into boa morphs. While trying my herp skills at a new tree frog might set us back a few bucks breeding boa morphs was a big investment. I look at it this way, I would keep and probably breed boas anyway so if I can make a little money back to help feed the snakes, and my snake addiction, then great. I am planning on producing Kahl Sunglows next season and hope the price holds steady until then. I paid good money for quality snakes from a reputable breeder so I would hope to see some return on this investment. But if not in the end I love herps, especially boas, and think Sunglows are great looking snakes so as long as I don't go broke feeding the babies waiting for a buyer I will be happy.

I wish my first post was shorter, I am really pretty quiet! I look forward to future posts on these forums and actually participating in them now!

-Rob

The more opinions the merrier Vinnie