Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Looooong day at work. Sorry I was not able to follow the conversation as it developed.

Just like most of us I was chasing reptiles before I could walk. I was chasing geckos an buffo toads in Hawaii when I was crawling. I am still chasing geckos and what ever those rat sized toads are in Florida whenever I make it down there. About a month ago I showed my daughters how to make a pair of anole earrings. Currently I have thirteen boas and have invested a lot of money and time into them. It is a hobby for me and at the same time I am in it for the money. I have no problem admitting it. Just being honest. I also care for my boas exceptionally well with proper husbandry and maintenance, regular vet inspections, and consultation from others with more experience than me. As far as I know the only thing I could do to make there lives better would be to take them back to the jungle.

The reason for my inquiry was to (1) try to find some feed back on why the sunglow market has crashed. Yes I said crashed. I have seen sunglows going for 25% to 50% less than last year. In any other open market this is considered a crash. And (2) see if there is any reasoning for this and possibly a solution. Another thing I have seen is I bought my jungles for $2,500 a piece in 2004. In 2005 the average price for similar jungles was $4,500. Recently, I have seen jungles and jungle salmons paired up for $6,000. Not only do I not have any evidence that this is market driven, I find it hard to believe that it is. That being said, the extent of my exposure to the boa world is the Tinley Park show and what is made public on this forum. So I am not “in the know” about every person producing sunglows, jungles or anything else. One thing I do know which is based on my educational and professional experience is it should take quite a few sunglows to reduce a supply driven price equilibrium to where it is in one season. At which point I would have to believe that to a certain extent people are just dumping there stock as fast as possible. All is fair in love and war…..and capitalism.

I think everyone knows the laws of supply and demand. I know I do. I am in the real estate business. I don't know where everyone is from, but in my market area we have been thoroughly schooled in the laws of supply and demand lol. Actually it isn't funny. I don't recall who discussed how the economy and housing market is affecting the other markets but good observation.

One point I think is valid is that most people who spend a significant amount of money on a single boa (i.e. $1,000 or more for the sake of this discussion) are at some level in "it" for the money. I find it hard to believe that many people would spend that much money on a boa strictly as a pet. I know there are some out there that will, but the majority, even "hobbyists" are looking for some sort of recuperation. If a person is looking to recuperate money it can still remain a hobby but at the same time it is more than just a hobby. At which point market activity is monitored. On the other hand I do know what some of you are talking about when someone is strictly in it for the money. I personally do not think this is always a bad thing. You probably wouldn't be able to convince me that any of the breeders whose income is obtained solely from the sales of their offspring are not in it for the money as well as the for the love of a beautiful boa. My parents always told me to find something I like to do and make a career out of it. Nothing wrong with that. I applaud anyone who has or can.

There is no doubt that quality is the way to go. If you saw the pastel albino produced and owned by Jeff Ronne or the red albinos produced by Matt Crabe there really is no debate to the quality theory. The photos of the aforementioned boas are posted above.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. Great discussion!

Quality!

Thanks,

Steve Ihrig - sdi

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toine plompen,,,holland

WWW.PUREBOAS.COM

I think albinos and hets that also have the salmon gene are heartier animals and more prolific. I think the outbreeding into salmon resulted in stronger animals that can breed at a young age and produce good size litters. As a result I think you are seeing a lot of sunglows produced.
I think the addition of the hypo gene into snows will have a similar effect with the amount of snow production increasing dramatically when moonglows are readily available.
Bill

While there are some (a tiny fraction) people that are in it for the love of the animals and reptiles bobby, I believe most are in it for the money. Most of the people here remind me of the people who work for KFC or slaughter houses; just looking to get their animal big, now, for profit. But you see the difference is that the people at KFC and slaughter houses aren't sitting around talking about how much they love their animals and the people on the outside looking in are not just sitting around waiting to make compliment them. Sadly, this is the environment here.

I can’t seem to count, within the last 4 years, how many people posted pictures of litters produced by young, pushed parents and the excuse was I just put them together to clean the cage? Anyone who has been here long enough has seen this situation happen at least 3 times. I apologize if it seems like I am coming off a bit aggressively but people act as if we have not learned that forcing boas into early reproduction decreases the animals life span. We have had people like Jeff Ronne tell us that ALL of his boas he forced into early reproduction died at a very early age, but we don’t listen. Instead we listen to the person yappin about how they have been in the hobby for numerous years yet the longest they have had a specific animal in their collection has been for no more than 5 years.

I’m not trying to sound like making money off your boas is not okay. I plan to breed my boas this year and I hope to make some money off the offspring but I’m at least happy to say that I gave me females 3.5 years to become ready.

Are you hoping to receive the “Most Ethical Breeder Award”? Because it’s gonna be kind of hard for them to send you the trophy when your only known as “22 27”. Which by the way, makes it a lot easier to "Speak Aggressively" on a subject when nobody knows who you are…

I have no problem with you voicing your opinion and I agree that some breeders are forcing their females into production way too early, but I find it kind of ironic that you use “KFC Chicken” as your example and don't sign any of your posts. I like to know who I am listening to on the “Soap Box”.

And one other thing….

You said:

“Instead we listen to the person yappin about how they have been in the hobby for numerous years yet the longest they have had a specific animal in their collection has been for no more than 5 years.”

So….What’s the longest you have had a Boa in your collection? 3.5 years?

-The Colonel

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Jason Gonzalez
PreMeditated Morphs
www.PreMeditatedMorphs.com
Jason@PreMeditatedMorphs.com

I'd have to agree with Jason. You do make several good points but they are made from behind the annonymous "22 27" mask. I myself have 5 possible females going this year, two of which are '04's and I'm looking at one as maybe not, she just does not have the size. The other was an early '04 and is plenty big enough. Th longest I've had a boa in my collection is 17 years, she did pass away this year. By no means a record but she did live a long life and all my kids school friends knew her well from the yearly educational shows we put on at the schools. I also have BRB's several of which are from 1993/1994 still breeding and producing babies. Do I like the money they bring in...DUH! Do I do it just for the money, no. I do enjoy taking care of my snakes as I believe most of us keepers do.

It is a huge rush to find babies, an even huger rush to see them being born and knowing you had a hand in this. I am VERY proud of the fact I have not lost a baby yet. Yes I've had still borns and slugs and that blows. I do expect to have unviable preemies, knock on wood - none so far. I've had a few with various genetic defects (post vent tail kink, odd shaped jaw and a one eyed BRB) that have grown and I've found homes for. I myself have been expecting prices to drop. Simple laws of supply and demand, as more people breed them, there are more available and of course the prices will drop. Not surprised at all that they are and I'll still keep on breeding. They still can bring in some serious coin even at $1000 each for a litter of 20 - 40 babies. I've been breeding BRB's for years and they don't exactly pay my mortgage nor do I expect them to.

Guess it's my turn to step down off of my soapbox

sorry for the rant, I too have seen the ugly greedy side and it's not pretty.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

First, I did not post to get recognition. Do you think that I'm thinking recognition while raising my boas? With that said, I don't owe you nothing to state who I am, I am simply stating my opinion, isn't that what the forums are for? BTW 22_27 is who I am and does mean something but like I said before I don't owe you an explanation. I can tell you that I have been reading these forums and at one time participated regularly, I can tell you that I've followed these forums longer then I have seen you here. I simply posted my opinion because someone had concerns for the market and I stated what I believed to be one of the factors. I did not post for you to know who I am.

Next, I did not state that producing boas was going to make money or people wealthy, I just stated that the thought of money or the urge to just produce has taken control of a lot of people, to the point were the life of the animal has become the least priority.

Last, the “put the boas together for cage cleaning” was not meant for people that have older boas but was stated because it seems many people have used that as an excuse as to why their boas reproduced at such a young age.

P.S. I purchased my first “normal” boa when I was 18, 12 years later she is still with me. I purchased my first morphs 3.5 years ago; this year will be my first to attempt breeding.

That these younger boas that "accidentally" were put together during a cage cleaning, were put together "accidentally".

I've also put a "younger pair" together during a cage cleaning. The male was almost 3 years old and quite small. He may have been about 30 inches. The female was 18 months old and just over 3 feet. They were together for less than 30 minutes. Still the male was trying to court/breed her. Of course, I seperated them. She was much you small and young and he was simply a "dirty old man". LOL. I don't like my boas breeding until the females are 3 to 4 years old.

Now imagine a person with a pair that younger, but a bit larger boas. In fact, their pair is close to breeding "size". They're still probably too young, but they have size. Now imagine their owners are somewhat "new" to owning boas. They've probably read on the forums about boas breeding young and with no problems. Maybe they've read that "they don't breed unless they're READY". Well, in their excitement they leave the pair together. No greed intended. They simply are in awe of the possibility of their boas reproducing. Does this make them bad people??? Does this make them greedy??? Does this accidental breeding encounter make them wrong???? I'd say "no" to all 3. Sometimes things just happen. Especially with all the coflicting info about size/age of breeding boas.

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

You are right that things happen but not on a large scale.

Definately not on a large scale. Some people do grow them fast and breed them young. I was only refering to the ones who actually did "accidentally" allow their boas to breed, because they put them together during a cage cleaning.

There's just too much conflicting info out there. It's hard for newer people to sort it out. Sometimes they learn the hard way.

BTW all these new breeders and the quantity of boas being produced does affect the market. Needed to stay on topic.

Yeah, it's all a matter of supply and demand. This year the supply was much to high, which made the prices too low for some. Maybe next year the price will go up a bit. I'd like to see them stay on the lower end. I'd like to get me another morph or two one of these days.

I gave my opinion on something I believe and gave my .02 on what someone posted. Please understand that I am an adult and I will post what I want, not what you want. If you don't like my post, instead of responding immaturely, please don't respond at all. Please respond like an adult and maybe try to stay on the subject, my comments did not warrant the comments of a jokester. Please give the same respect you expect.

So I’ll respect the fact that you wish to remain anonymous. What gets me though are your statements like:

“While there are some (a tiny fraction) people that are in it for the love of the animals and reptiles bobby, I believe most are in it for the money.”

And,

“The problem is that everyone plays deaf, dumb and blind. I always sit and read the things everyone posts but I never respond because I know that 75% of the people are fake.”(from a post below)

I love this hobby just as much as the next guy, and when someone makes a blanket statement like this I get defensive. If this is how you feel about the hobby then why be in it? Maybe I’m just too naïve, but I still think that a (big fraction) of people are in it because they LOVE their boas. They just happen to be good at business also…

(No joke intended)

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Jason Gonzalez
PreMeditated Morphs
www.PreMeditatedMorphs.com
Jason@PreMeditatedMorphs.com

This is not how I feel about the hobby; this is how I feel about many people in it. My statements are based on what I have observed over the years. I'm not sure how long you have been involved in the hobby but many witnessed that at one point people use to discourage breeding a female under 2 years of age. Now, it seems that breeding a boa that young has become the norm for many people. I have seen the same people that discouraged breeding that young turn around and then do it themselves.

What I don’t understand is why you would get defensive? Are you one of the people that I’m referring to?

In regards to the other statement you posted. Am I supposed to think some people are not fake when I see them post about how much they love their animals yet they are overfeeding like crazy just to get their animals “up to size”? In my opinion I think I have seen more people overstuffing their animals then I have seen people feed sparingly.

So if this is you then I’m sorry, this is just the way I feel. If this is not you then there is no reason to get offended. The bottom line is that everyone has witnessed (either through ads, forums or in person) what I have mentioned; no one can say that it’s not true.

So back to the point, I think this has had an impact on the market.

Sorry for Hijacking your thread.

22_27 - Good luck breeding your boas this season.

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Jason Gonzalez
PreMeditated Morphs
www.PreMeditatedMorphs.com
Jason@PreMeditatedMorphs.com

You Nailed IT ! IMO
Defense is Generally Confirmation ;-

M/

>>This is not how I feel about the hobby; this is how I feel about many people in it. My statements are based on what I have observed over the years. I'm not sure how long you have been involved in the hobby but many witnessed that at one point people use to discourage breeding a female under 2 years of age. Now, it seems that breeding a boa that young has become the norm for many people. I have seen the same people that discouraged breeding that young turn around and then do it themselves.
>>
>>What I don’t understand is why you would get defensive? Are you one of the people that I’m referring to?
>>
>>In regards to the other statement you posted. Am I supposed to think some people are not fake when I see them post about how much they love their animals yet they are overfeeding like crazy just to get their animals “up to size”? In my opinion I think I have seen more people overstuffing their animals then I have seen people feed sparingly.
>>
>>So if this is you then I’m sorry, this is just the way I feel. If this is not you then there is no reason to get offended. The bottom line is that everyone has witnessed (either through ads, forums or in person) what I have mentioned; no one can say that it’s not true.
>>
>>So back to the point, I think this has had an impact on the market.

Right back at ya' on "I'll respond the way I want, not the way you want".

Take Care.
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Jason Gonzalez
PreMeditated Morphs
www.PreMeditatedMorphs.com
Jason@PreMeditatedMorphs.com

Can your Daddy whip his Daddy ?

rotf...

M/

>>Right back at ya' on "I'll respond the way I want, not the way you want".
>>
>>Take Care.
>>-----
>>Jason Gonzalez
>>PreMeditated Morphs
>>www.PreMeditatedMorphs.com
>>Jason@PreMeditatedMorphs.com

LOL.....

I actually did that put a pair together while I cleaned a cage thing.

Of course, my male was 5 years old and the female was 7. It was July and I didn't think they'd be trying to breed. The end result was a nice litter of boas. I didn't make a whole lot of money off those babies. I even gave a few away for free. I'm one of those that enjoys breeding my boas. If the only way to find homes for the babies was to give them away...... Well, I'd still be breeding my boas and I'd be giving away the babies.

I'm sure there's more than a "tiny fraction" of people on the forums that feel the same way.

I'm also sure that there's more than a "tiny fraction" that breeds their boas in hopes of making some money. Unfortunately most of them will only "break even". Some of them will actually "support their boa habbit" and have a little left over. A "tiny fraction" will make a "LOT OF MONEY".

Now I don't have any proof as to how much money anyone makes. I just know that if breeding boas to make money was "easy"...... Well, a lot more people would be doing it and raking in the cash. I think that the "vast majority" of the people that breed boas do it for the enjoyment of the hobby. Got to love that rush, when you see those little wigglers in that slime.

As for those who choose grow their animals fast and breed them young..... Well,.......... I refuse to comment on that subject. I think the forums should be a "friendly place". I don't feel the need to add fuel to the fire of a "touchy subject".

not your opinions, it is your attitude and your confrontational style. You have insulted a lot of fine boa breeders here. If you want to effect the change that people don't push thier girls, don't you think it would be smarter and more effective if you were educational in tone, instead of hostile?

You also have a warped opinion of what most boa breeders do, you have let the idiot few color your opinion of us in general.

Caden Chapman

I know absolutely nothing about what is going on in this market, but let me give you an example I personally witnessed.

Back when the Savu (Sawu) python first showed up on the market a VERY reputable dealer advertised them for $1200 a pair with very limited quanities. I thought this might be a good project to get in to on the ground floor. Upon contact I was told this was the last pair for any foreseeable future. After purchasing the first pair I decided to go ahead and get a second pair. Believing the VERY reputable dealer, I decided to tracked down the original importer to see when more would be coming in to the country. When I told him the VERY reputable dealer had sold me the last pair he laughed. He said he had just sold that VERY repudable dealer at least another dozen pair. I had a friend call the VERY repudable dealer about a pair and he stated he had "one pair available and no more in the forseeable future". What a crock. I tested him on another species that I knew he had purchased a slew of from this importer and he used the same scam, "last pair and no more in the foreseeable future". Of course within a couple of years it was obvious how many were on the market and the prices "crashed".

Just something to keep in mind when buying animals that are supposedly limited in availability, you really don't know. This crook is still out there, I've even seen him on TV hawking "rare" morphs.