Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

Interesting Scientific Study

dawnrenee2000 Oct 03, 2006 08:26 AM

Snakes alive! What's your poison?
30 September 2006
NewScientist.com news service

Researcher Bryan Grieg Fry made his first discovery the hard way. During his PhD, he handled a snake whose venom was largely unknown. "As far as anyone knew, Stephen's banded snakes were not considered dangerous," Fry says. "I clearly proved this wrong as my body hit the ground seconds after the bite".

Several thousand snakes and more than 20 bites later, Fry, now deputy director of the Australian Venom Research Unit at the University of Melbourne, has gone one better. He now says the vast majority of snakes on the planet are venomous, even some commonly kept as pets.

Fry has spent the past five years exploring caves, climbing trees and scuba-diving for sea snakes, on a mission to catch and milk venom from as many snake species as possible. Along the way he has gained a reputation as a fearless snake wrangler and, more importantly, he has single-handedly rewritten the story of snake venom evolution.

Before Fry came along, the story went something like this. The first snakes evolved from lizards and were small burrowing creatures, less than 1 metre long. Around 60 to 80 million years ago they split into constrictor-style snakes and the advanced snakes, which are further divided into four families: Viperidae (vipers), Elapidae (cobras and coral snakes), Atractaspididae (stiletto snakes) and Colubridae (everything else).

A deadly ancestor
Leaving aside the colubrids, most of which were thought to have nothing more dangerous than slightly toxic saliva, venom was assumed to have evolved independently in each of the other three families, after they split off from their non-venomous ancestors. In these three there were thought to be a grand total of around 500 venomous species, all of which gained their venom by developing increasingly nasty saliva. Some scientists suspected there had been a common venomous ancestor to all snakes but no one had found any evidence to support the idea.

Fry began his venom-collecting mission in 2001. It was dangerous work. That year, Fry lost a friend and colleague to a snakebite, and frequently gets bitten himself. "It happens, but it doesn't make me nervous; it's all part of the job," he says, pointing out that he never goes anywhere without a doctor and a supply of antivenom.

Between trips around Africa, Australia and the South Pacific, Fry set to work analysing the venoms he had collected and the glands that produced them. The idea was to create a phylogeny - an evolutionary tree based on physical similarities - of different species of snakes and their lizard relatives.

Snake venom is a mixture of toxic proteins, so to find which proteins are produced by which snakes he sequenced messenger RNA from the cells that make up the venom glands. He then compared his results with an existing snake phylogeny created by Nicholas Vidal at the National Museum in Paris, France. Vidal had traced snake evolution through DNA extracted from liver tissue, so Fry was able to check that the similarities he'd found between venoms really did reflect evolutionary relationships. Finally, he compared his new evidence to the fossil record.

Fry's phylogeny, published in the journal Nature in February this year, was to overturn everything scientists thought they knew about snake venom. Similarities between the messenger RNA of venom glands of advanced snakes and venomous lizards revealed that these glands did not evolve independently in three snake families, or even in a common snake ancestor, but much earlier, in a lizard ancestor 200 million years ago. Venom evolved only once, in the common ancestor of all snakes plus some other reptiles, including the Komodo dragon, the green iguana and the Gila monster.

What's more, venom didn't evolve from ever more toxic saliva but from what Fry calls "recruitment events". Rather than tweaking proteins already expressed in their saliva, snakes recruited and altered cells from other parts of the body including the brain, eye, lung, heart, liver, muscle, ovary and testis. Over generations these proteins, usually involved in key biological processes such as blood clotting or regulating blood pressure, were mutated into more potent varieties and concentrated into catastrophic overdoses. The common ancestor had nine such toxins in its venom. Modern snakes have recruited 17 more.

The upshot of all this is that while the supposedly non-venomous colubrids were widely believed to have only mildly toxic saliva, Fry's work shows that they actually possess true venom. In fact, Fry has found snakes in pet stores whose venom glands "have enough poison in them to kill a human". The venom of the rat snake, for example, a common choice of pet, contains a neurotoxin which is as potent as the cobra equivalent. Fortunately for would-be pet owners, the rat snake has no front fangs, leaving these snakes with a rather crude venom-delivery system. Garter snakes, American racers and radiated rat snakes drip venom from their back teeth and even if you stuck your hand down a snake's throat you would never get a deadly bite. What's more, these snakes are primarily interested in smaller prey than humans, and what is lethal to a 2-gram frog may be fairly harmless to a 70-kilogram human.

“The venom of a pet rat snake contains a neurotoxin as potent as that of a cobra”According to evolutionary ecologist Martin Kreitman of the University of Chicago, Fry's findings shed a new light on the snake evolutionary tree. "It means that venom may have evolved first, and that what separates other advanced snakes from the colubrids are simply more advanced delivery systems for injecting the venom," he says.

That implies that snakes which crush their prey, such as king snakes, pythons and boas, may have lost their venom as they evolved to kill by constriction. Fry has found evidence that some snakes are now "evolving out" certain venom components, perhaps because it takes a huge amount of energy to create them. The venom of the marbled sea snake, for example, has become only 1 to 20 per cent as toxic as that of similar species since it began to feed exclusively on fish eggs, rather than fish.

"The vast majority of the colubrids are perfectly safe," says Fry, but be careful of any unusual snakes for sale from Asia, Madagascar and Latin America. Previously sold as pets, the olive sand snake has huge venom glands and big teeth, for example, and although the Egyptian cat snake only has small rear fangs, it is as toxic as a cobra - and there's no antivenom.

Caution at the pet store is not the only spin-off from Fry's work. Snakebites account for tens of thousands of deaths each year in South America, Africa, the Middle East and south-east Asia. The more venoms that are catalogued and understood, the greater the chance of the right antivenom being available at the right time.

Snake venoms are also making a positive contribution to human health as a source of new drugs. Captopril, developed from the venom of a lancehead viper, is one of the most widely used medications for high blood pressure. A promising new drug from the venom of the Gila monster, marketed as Byetta, may soon start stabilising the blood sugar of people with diabetes. Researchers at the University of South Australia, Adelaide, and elsewhere are researching the venom of a number of deadly Australian snakes which appears to stunt the growth of tumours by disrupting their blood supply.

In addition to 450 elapids, vipers and atractaspidids, there are over 2000 colubrids, accounting for over half the snake species on the planet. Fry estimates that well over 2000 species are venomous, and if he's right that's a lot of potential new molecules that could work as drugs.

The Stephen's banded snake that bit Fry early in his PhD turned out to immobilise its prey using a hormone that is almost identical to one that is used in the human body to regulate blood pressure. Fry recently patented the venom component that does this in both Stephen's banded snake and the inland taipan and hopes it will one day be used to treat patients with congestive heart failure. There may be many more potential drugs waiting in the wings.

Despite Fry's success, don't expect a mad rush of scientists to join him in the field. "It's a dangerous job," says Kreitman. "Fry is truly a modern adventurer, one of a bunch of guys who think it's great to travel to the most remote places in the world and risk death."

Replies (18)

johninbs Oct 03, 2006 11:49 AM

Interesting article, nice to read this just as I'm about to branch from corns to rats. LOL
Thanks for posting it.

John

dawnrenee2000 Oct 03, 2006 11:57 AM

Well I am happy to say that in all my bites from my rat snakes, I have never fallen over dead. LOL So I guess they are right that there is no transfer form for any of the possible venomous saliva..haha.

I did find it interesting in this article as they discussed the evolution they feel has taken place amongst the colubrids, etc.

I am such a nerd for this stuff. Glad you enjoyed it too.

Dawn

wink0083 Oct 03, 2006 02:43 PM

I'd be very interested in seeing some diagrams or dissection photos showing the rat snake venom glands. Any idea where they could be found?
-----
Black Rat 0.1 (Patty)
Black Racer 1.0 (Alfred)
Ball Pythons 1.1 (Morty & Mary)
Amazon Tree Boas 1.1 (Orville & Aeme)
Corn Snakes 3.2 (?, Bob, Sandy, Candy, and Tye)
Leopard Geckos 1.2 (Leo, Spaz, and Spot)
LOTSO BABIES!
Central Painted Turtle 1.0 (Swim)
Red-Eared Slider 0.0.1 (Harold)
Mississippi Map Turtles 0.0.6
(Modelo, Tecate, Corona, Sol, XX, Bohemia)
Western Painted Turtle 0.0.1 (Picaso)
Columbian Red-Tailed Boa 1.0 (James Jr.)

www.geocities.com/wink0083

dawnrenee2000 Oct 03, 2006 04:29 PM

The article doesn't give details on the actual glad locations, but I was considering tracking down more details on this by trying to write who wrote the article in my science publication. I will post more if I get any more details.

phwyvern Oct 03, 2006 06:41 PM

>>The article doesn't give details on the actual glad locations, but I was considering tracking down more details on this by trying to write who wrote the article in my science publication. I will post more if I get any more details.

Just ask Dr. Fry himself. He normally hangs out on the Venomous Reptiles forum and occasionally on the Monitor forum. His username is BGF. Just post a topic on the venomous forum with his name in it to grab his attention. I believe he checks the forums every few days as his schedule permits.
-----
_____

PHWyvern

Rivets55 Oct 03, 2006 07:06 PM

You could also check out his website - very cool!

Dr. Fry was hosted here at the KS Froum Chart Room a couple weeks ago. He is one cool guy, and loves to talk about snakes!

Enjoy,

JPD

VenomDoc Website

-----
I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat (WV Rescue) "Roberta"

phwyvern Oct 03, 2006 06:46 PM

>>Interesting article, nice to read this just as I'm about to branch from corns to rats. LOL
>>Thanks for posting it.
>>
>>John

Corns are rats. i.e. red rats. lol.

I have been bitten by many snakes over the years including eastern garters with no effects. However one time I had a rather intense reaction from an eastern garter snake bite. A very large angry female (gravid) that bit me over a dozen times in quick succession which probably accounted for the reaction.. more bites by a snake large enough to hit me with the rear teeth equals more saliva making it into my system. Nice itchy burning sensation and lots of bleeding (anticoagulant properties) .. lasted around 10 - 15 min.
-----
_____

PHWyvern

garweft Oct 04, 2006 05:50 PM

That's one of the reasons that I don't "play" with northern watersnakes anymore. Well that and the musk/feces shower.

juicyb Oct 03, 2006 09:34 PM

Thanks for providing this information in an easy-to-read format! I have seen some of this presented online - usually so technical that I can't discern much beyond the basics (and I have a Bachelor of Science degree)! I was concerned about the bits and pieces I had read because I just bought a Radiated Rat Snake that I learned (1) wasn't considered a Rat Snake anymore and (2) was venomous!

Foreman Oct 04, 2006 07:46 AM

>>Thanks for providing this information in an easy-to-read format! I have seen some of this presented online - usually so technical that I can't discern much beyond the basics (and I have a Bachelor of Science degree)! I was concerned about the bits and pieces I had read because I just bought a Radiated Rat Snake that I learned (1) wasn't considered a Rat Snake anymore and (2) was venomous!

The problem I have with this theory is where are the "throw backs" and mutations? If rat snakes (I`m speaking of the North American types) have the potential to be as venomous as claimed where are the occasional mutations from yesteryear? I have never ever heard of a North American rat snake that was discover with any fang type. Anyone hear of any recorded deaths at any time from a NA rat snake bite?

This is actually quite distrubing news IMHO. Many could now attempt to claim that no rat snake should be kept as pets period, not to mention major drug companies bucthering million of snake just to look for vemon, proteins etc.. while thinking great new source for new drugs! Cash cows snakes) $$$$$$$.
-----
Like I said; I`m Gonna Getcha Good!

Foreman Oct 04, 2006 07:53 AM

>>>>Thanks for providing this information in an easy-to-read format! I have seen some of this presented online - usually so technical that I can't discern much beyond the basics (and I have a Bachelor of Science degree)! I was concerned about the bits and pieces I had read because I just bought a Radiated Rat Snake that I learned (1) wasn't considered a Rat Snake anymore and (2) was venomous!
>>
>> The problem I have with this theory is where are the "throw backs" and mutations? If rat snakes (I`m speaking of the North American types) have the potential to be as venomous as claimed where are the occasional mutations from yesteryear? I have never ever heard of a North American rat snake that was discover with any fang type. Anyone hear of any recorded deaths at any time from a NA rat snake bite?
>>
>>This is actually quite distrubing news IMHO. Many could now attempt to claim that no rat snake should be kept as pets period, not to mention major drug companies bucthering million of snake just to look for vemon, proteins etc.. while thinking great new source for new drugs! Cash cows snakes) $$$$$$$.
>>-----
>>Like I said; I`m Gonna Getcha Good!

Also show me these vemon glands. Don`t claim they are there. Take dead rat snake and prove they have vemon glands. (With vemon) Really that should not be all that hard to do.
-----
Like I said; I`m Gonna Getcha Good!

ratsnakehaven Oct 04, 2006 12:17 PM

I don't think Fry said ratsnakes have venom glands, but many snakes do, mostly tropical. He said radiated rats have a neurotoxin, but that doesn't mean it has dozens. Also, there are no large teeth for delivery. Thus, a bite from radiata would deliver very little toxin, if any, to a human.

As far as North American rats go, they are supposed to have evolved from Asian rats, but are highly evolved, and have lost most of their potential to do any toxic harm. They are harmless. They are likely one of the most harmless of all snakes. That's my opinion anyway.

PS: That was a very cool article, btw.

TC

Rivets55 Oct 04, 2006 01:34 PM

Visit Dr, Fry's site to see for yourself.

Look at the link titled: "Toxin Molecular Evolution". There you will see the venom glands of Telescopus dhara (Egyptian catsnake) and Psammophis mossambicus (Olive sand snake).

The site is fascinating and gives an excellent overview of Greg's lifestyle, passion, and scientific work.

Regards,

John D.
VenomDoc.com

-----
I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat (WV Rescue) "Roberta"

garweft Oct 04, 2006 05:44 PM

Most likely the first work done for medical reasons will involve developing protocols to synthesize the useful components of the venom. Althogh some snakes will be euthanized at the university level for various reasons, most of the venom used to determine the structure of the proteins will just be "milked" from lab raised snakes.

Well hopefully anyway

phiber_optikx Oct 05, 2006 12:52 PM

I don't see that being a huge problem. We have the rattlesnake roundups to distract all of those idiots. Now days you don't necessarily have to kill something to learn about it.
-----
0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

"You can only take my money for so long. And then I don't have anymore, and then I get angry!"

garweft Oct 04, 2006 05:34 PM

I guess it's time to start handling with tongs and hooks. Just kidding. I do think it is nice to see the increased interest in colubrid venoms. This is an interesting and rather unstudied branch of herpetology. I just hope that law makers and lay people don't misunderstand the risks associated with these findings.

Foreman Oct 05, 2006 06:49 AM

>>I guess it's time to start handling with tongs and hooks. Just kidding. I do think it is nice to see the increased interest in colubrid venoms. This is an interesting and rather unstudied branch of herpetology. I just hope that law makers and lay people don't misunderstand the risks associated with these findings.

This is another factor that I worry about. The "lay people" could completely misunderstand this and only "hear" the rat vemon is as toxic as a corba`s vemon and "Cry see we need to stop keeping these things as pets," etc.. Believe me a lot more has been done over a lot less infromation than this.
-----
Like I said; I`m Gonna Getcha Good!

odyssey Oct 05, 2006 10:07 AM

     It's not that I disbelieve this guy, it's just that part of the scientific method is the review and collaboration of one's findings by further study by other people. Until then, I hesitate (after all of these centuries of being kept as pets by hundreds of thousands of people) to believe that "the venom of a pet rat snake contains a neurotoxin as potent as that of a cobra."
     By the way, the article perpetuates a common misnomer that's thrown around by many reporters—and even some scientists—who can't be bothered to use a dictionary. The substance that one injects to offset snake venom is not antivenom, it's antivenin.
 

Site Tools