Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Chris, it seems to me that you are the Tim Taylor of this forum and your ideas are great. Here is my question: What is the difference between PVC and FRP? Which do you think is better? How much does it cost per sheet? Where can the average knuclehead get it? I am a plywood guy my self but I am always open to new ideas and this seems like some thing I would want to work with. I will be building some boa cages ( 48"x2"x12" and some aborial cages for my bigger ratsnakes. Thanks for your help, from all of us, BLue

To give a varied opinion I thought to throw in my 2 cents.

PVC and FRP?

Polyvinyl Chloride - Fiberglass Reinforced Panel

Which do you think is better?

Depends largely on application, species, enviroment, heat, etc. PVC is smooth were FRp is rough textured or hammered, not as easy to clean but PVC has a not so smooth side that is prone to staining.

How much does it cost per sheet?

FRP usually runs about $35 for a 4x8 sheet, PVC is often double that but again it largely depends on size and thickness.

Where can the average knuclehead get it?

FRP is available at nearly all the big box Home Improvement stores. PVC is usually only available via sign shops or plastic distributers.

Good Luck

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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

Thanks BigHurt, is the FRP the same stuff that you can use for shower stall walls? smooth on one side and rough( like regular fiberglass??) on the other.. Thanks again

Yes..............

What species FRP may be overkill, have you looked into Formica and other laminates?

>>Thanks BigHurt, is the FRP the same stuff that you can use for shower stall walls? smooth on one side and rough( like regular fiberglass??) on the other.. Thanks again
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

Right, it's going to be for boas and ratsnakes , two dirrfernt designs. I was going to make them out of plywood, paint them w/ water based enamal paint, seal them with waterbased polyurethane and try to find a vinal flooring with a low dimple count to glue to the floors and about 2" up the sides, then silicone every corner and the edges of the vents.
But.. if I can make them out of PCV, or something that is lighter I would try that also. I made some cages out of melamine when it hit the cage scene and those are so degraged now the roaches won't even live in there ( just kidding, they were used for cover boards, yes I bleached them and used quat plus and only used the tops and sides.. )

Sounds like you are on the right track. One suggestion would be to laminate the vinyl flooring over the entire interior. Unless you are looking for that stained wood grain or clear coated interior. The additional cost of the vinyl floor may offset the additional labor required to seal the seam of vinyl flooring up the wall.

I find that for Boas in particular you never know where on the wall to make the vinyl stop. I have had boas deposit fecal material a foot up the wall. As the urates tend to run, I would be worried about a failed seam in the vinyl/wood side interface.

I myself am throwing around a few ideas on some new cages. Two of which are basically lining the entire interior with vinyl, the difference is the cage carcass. I am considering melamine and BB Ply or Possably a maple veneer. My fronts will be maple solid material.

The third design is a bit complicated and experimental for the limits of this discussion.

So for the novice woodworker or even begineer, I still think melamine has a place although I would not use it alone. PVC unfortunatly while can be used by the casual DIY still has limited availability and a very high cost making it a turn off to some. Mistakes can be costly, but that really comes with aeveryhing.

Good Luck
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

Sounds good, I was going to go for an all black cage, just to be different(lol)and I was planning to use the cheapest ply I could get (not D grade though, no knot holes)because I am building a few cages. The wife won't let me build with Melamine any more because I told her I would set up some shelves for her in her craft room... Well I built everything outside and pushed it all in the garage as a NC thunderstorm rolled in...excecept for her leftover peices for her shelves...she took it pretty hard...So the cost factor alone will rule out the PVC. I saw your cages a few posts back. I think I can go with a nice blue tinted white wash on the fronts!! ( everything think in my house thats mine is blue, it just makes sence..)

Someone else posted pics of a blue washed cage not to long ago, You?

Regardless they looked awesome, just not the look for me.

Good Luck and post pics or questions LOL
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

It sounds like you and Jeremy worked through the PVCX and FRP issue so I won't add anything else.

And I agree that melamine would be a good choice for you but it also appears that it is simply not an option.

I would pay a bit more for paint grade ply if you really want the black interior. Some of the cheap birch-laminated plys would work well.

Also, I think the combo of black paint and water based poly is a bit overkill and there are also some issues with putting a hard surface (the poly) over a soft surface (the enamel paint).

If you're planning on using vinyl flooring over the floor and part of the sides then you really don't need that much protection for the walls. My opinion is to stick with just the paint. Sure, it may be not be as durable as poly but it is a much easier to repair surface than poly. Go with a the highest gloss paint that looks okay on the surface you're painting over.

I'm a big believer that if someone does not go with a super durable surface they should go with one that is repairable. Both paint and WB poly are repairable, but paint is easier and fairly durable to begin with.

I'd use some of the more expensive acrylic paints made for use in bathrooms. They have a higher solids content and will be a bit harder.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Sherwin Williams (among others) makes some oustanding acrylic paints that are more durable than you may think, and yet easily touched up as needed. I just painted 2 bathrooms and all of our door frames with it, and I can scrub them with soap and a sponge w/o wear or damage.

Although a cage will need touching up because snake poop is not easy on the finish, so what. It is easy to do, and the paint is cured after a few days. Just have an empty cage as temp housing during that time.

The glossier the finish, the easier to remove urates, etc but the more it shows wood imperfections. Who cares.

I do like the ease of those vinyl floor tiles if you want to add those in. Just make sure you seal the seams well.

Mark,

If someone were to put down vinyl flooring on a plywood floor and then radius the bottom edges with Bondo, do you think it would stick to the vinyl? Well enough to make a long-term seal?

I love your idea of using Bondo to radius the edges but have not decided if there is a good way of combining it with a more durable floor, short of pouring bartop epoxy or using an entire skim coat of bondo on the floor.

BTW, I would recommend that Sherwin Williams acrylic paint as well. The only issue with it is that it is so hard it can crack. Don't paint it over and thin, flexible materials and/or solid wood surfaces and it should be fine. It is best on thicker, engineered surfaces that don't flex or expand/contract with seasonal changes.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

"If someone were to put down vinyl flooring on a plywood floor and then radius the bottom edges with Bondo, do you think it would stick to the vinyl? Well enough to make a long-term seal?"

Well, I'm not Mark and I've never tried doing that, but, as a floorcovering installer that has dealt with many different types of vinyl, many times over, I'd say, "No."

You might could scruf up the vinyl area so the bondo would bite better but flex or movement will eventually break the bond. Even the best floor patch used to fill in patterns/recesses in an existing vinyl flooring when going over it with a new one will break loose. The only reason you never know it is because the top layer (new vinyl flooring) keeps it pinned in place. I think silicone would be the best bet. It's flexible and good adhesion.

HH
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It is said that 1 out of every 4 people are mentally unbalanced. Think of your 3 closest friends, if they're normal, then it's you.

I wouldn't trust Bondo on a flexible surface like Vinyl. I would have guessed it will eventually lift, and Mr Hillbilly just verified that for both of us.

Can't really speak about FRP or PVCX so I'll leave that to Jeremy and Chris (the forum Guru's). I have built sewveral plywood cages and melamine racks. IMO, melamine is not the greatest cage material. One leak and you could easily damage the cage. One stack of cages I built with oak plywood and laminated formica to the interior surfaces. between the tight fitting router cut joints, waterproof glue and caulked seams, there's little to no chance of joint failure. And even if one did fail, with plywood there would be minimal s]welling and fairly easy to reseal. Love the formica, a breeze to clean and seems to be indestructable.

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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Forgot to mention, the formica route is not cheap, 49" x 97" sheets are around $50 plus the plywood and contact cement to put them together. I had formica laying around from when a home improvement store closed down, I bought a bunch and have been storing/using it ever since.

BTW, scraps work great to stack rows of cd's on top of each other...... row of cd's/formica divider/row of cd's
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

If you can find a counter fabrication shop that specializes in laminate they can often sell at a cheaper price. Also, some of their scrap pieces or damaged pieces can be had for cheap if not free. If they have one 4x8 sheet with damage in the middle it's probably not worth working with. But for a reptile cage you could probably still get three or four useful panels out of it.

And Dave, shoot me an email if and when you have time.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

>48"x2"x12" and some aborial cages for my bigger ratsnakes.

I'll weigh in on this thread as well as Jeremy. For the size of boa cage you want to build, I would say that PVC or PVCX as we're actually talking about would be a good cage material. However, working with PVC requires specialized tools and construction methods. I've tried building with PVC using both 3mm and 6mm thicknesses using a variety of methods. I never tried heat benders or plastic welders which is what most of the PVCX cage manufacturers use. You can build without specialized tools but the construction is time consuming and by no means more cost effective than working with plywood. The chief advantage with a PVCX cage is having a lightweight cage. Since I almost never need to move a cage once it's set up, I've steered away from weight issues as a defining characteristic of my cage constructions. I also see that you want to construct some cages for arboreal species. While I think with the right construction methods I think you could use PVCX for an arboreal cage, again we're talking about the use of specialized tools and construction methods. Probably the easiest route for you to go would be with plywood and an FRP section built into the bottom of the cage as you'd described in one of your replies. In the end it'll probably be cheaper and easier to construct without the steep learning curve that comes with working with PVCX.
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Matt Campbell

"I only went out for a walk and finally concluded to stay out till sundown, for going out, I found, was really going in." John Muir

>> How much does it cost per sheet? Where can the average knuclehead get it?

I have gotten some of this stuff for free. I went to a local sign company and told them what I was doing and that I wanted to try the stuff out. I asked if they ever throw away any of it. The guy I was talking to walked me around to the back and picked up a few pieces of 1/4" and 1/2" stuff. One was about 4'x4' and the others were
2'x 5'. They were old signs that they were going to throw away. He just gave them to me.
That reminds me, I still owe him a few sodas.....
Rob
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"I reject your reality and substitute my own" Jamie Hyneman
0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa
1.0 Creamscicle motley corn
0.1 Creamscicle corn
0.0.2 Normal(?)corns
0.1 Black Pine
1.1 Bearded Dragon

Acrilic paint. Got that. Has anyone used indoor out door, a laytex type paint? I think I am going to go with the formica on the floor. I am planning on building the cages in one unit with 4 cages in each unit ( 2 units for the boas). I plan on using 1/4" ply, the birch sounds good but I'm not realy building for looks, more for function. Given that I plan to build 4 cages in one shell, like a book shelf, is the thickness of the wood good enough? Do you think i will need to add supports around the sides under the floor/roof of each cage?
All imputs are welcome, I plan on taking hundreds of pics while building this to help others like me.
Does anyone remember Dwight Goods cage building tips he had on his site years ago?

I have not used that type of paint. In general you want to avoid paints rated for exterior use simply because they have to be more flexible to deal with expansion and contraction. For vapor and moisture resistance you always want to use the hardest finish that can withstand the natural flexibility of the surface it is being applied to. In your case an interior bathroom paint will be more durable, although that does seem counter-intuitive. But if you already have the paint, I guess go ahead and use it.

I would not use 1/4" plywood for this project. You might be able to get away with 1/2" for the sides and 1/8" for the back (which is the equivalent of use 1/4" for the whole thing), but definately use 3/4" for the horizontal members. And build some sort of face frame to support the front.

I would like to get Bighurt's opinion on this, however.

If weight savings is your goal, try building it from hollow core doors. You can often get tear outs from remodels or scratch and dent doors from home centers for very cheap. They make for a very flat, strong and light building material. Sealing up the cut ends is the only part that requires some patience.

Even at prices for brand new HC doors you really can't find a lighter and cheaper building material.

I recommend HC doors with interior frames made from finger-jointed pine. This is easy to see on the outside edges. The particle-board framed doors are not as nice to work with.

But really, look around for old or damaged HC doors. I could have probably purchased a hundred of them in the past year for about a $7 each average. No kidding.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

On the cage construction materials. I think 1/4" is to thin even for butt joints 1/4" is just to thin to work with comfortably.

In all honesty 3/4" is the easiest to work with. But can be a bit expensive and a little bit heavier.

1/2" is practical although it takes patience to work with but doesn't need the same skill 1/4" requires.

So what size do you need, well what size cage are we talking?

Probally the most well rounded would be to use 1/2" for the sides and celing. If the cage floor will hold some weight a standard 4'x2' may need the additional support of 3/4" otherwise 1/2" wil be fine. I would recommend anything larger to have a floor out of 3/4" material.

You can also save weight on 1/8" backing like Chris mentioned.

Also I recommend all face frames or litter dams be made with 3/4" material because they are supporting the weigh on the floor and the floor itself.

I hope that helps.
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

Ok, you guys rock... Indoor/outdoor is out...
I saw the post on useing the doors and I liked it, I think I'm going to use that idea for the boa cages because it seems more sturdy to me. I did type 1/4" , I ment 1/2" for the ply. I'm only concerned at this point with the on these cages, and I'm not real concerned w/ the cost, but my wife is and she is the project manager on this one!
Now for the doors!!!! Hey, I'm in Iraq for the next few months, humor me....

I just wish wives would mind there own business, LOL.

Good Luck in Iraq, I'm glad that my MO doesn't let me deploy. CONUS forever! LOL
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-

CONUS? I remember that, I hear it's nice there! LOL ( for the non-mil, CONUS means in the states)
OK guys! Lets talk doors! Sliders or Drop Down? I have refined the hight of the cages to be 17" now upon seeing a post above and they will now be stackable because a move is in my future ( within a few years ). Plus I can get most of the wood pre- cut so I only have to make a few cuts. I am still decideing on the 1/2 ply vs. the HD blanks though...(2) can you get pigments added to the acrilic paint you mentioned? I could still go with black...And Chris, don't think I didn't see over on the Indigo forum.. That's right guys, Chris is cheeting on us... Oh the shame...LOL

I am totally partial to the sliding bypass doors. Not only do they help control fast moving species. But they are easy to open and close. I probally could go on more about them but I willleave it to others to voice there opinions since I am totally bais.

at's right guys, Chris is cheeting on us... Oh the shame...LOL

Thats not the only other forum Chris has been sited at, LOL.

I myself spend time on a few other forums but this is where I consider home.
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Jeremy

"I am become death, the destroyer of worlds" July 16, 1945 Robert Oppenheimer

1.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow RTB's
1.1 Hypomelenistic RTB's
0.2 Pastel Hypo RTB's
2.0 Double Het Stripe Albino RTB's
0.1 Suriname RTB
0.1 Anerthrystic RTB
0.0.10 Red Bearded Dragons
1.1 Rhinoceros Iguana's
1.0 Green Iguana
1.0 Ball Python
1.1 Cream Golden Retrieviers
1.0 Pomeriaian
0.2 Catus Terribilis
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Child -coming soon-