Reptile & Amphibian Forums

You know, this phrase "the big breeders" has puzzled me for some time now. Maybe this has been discussed previously on this, or other forums (most likely on the Ball Python forum which I do not have time to follow). Since I personally deal in facts and a common base of understanding/agreement, especially on definitions, I think for future discussions we should come to a common understanding (right or wrong) on exactly what constitutes a "big breeder". Once this is defined and agreed upon, we can work on categories outside the "big breeder" definition.

Actually, I would like to know exactly what I am?

As a starting point, what should be the definition ingredients for this phrase ...

- a large collection?
- the value of the collection?
- a rare collection?
- variety/diversity in the collection?
- time in the hobby/business?
- name recognition?
- good reputation?
- the physical size of the person (just kidding)?
- etc, etc.

Also, we need to include only quantifiable ingredients and exlude perceptions.

I am going to let this discussion take its' course because I do not have time to moderate or comment on ... the wife has a birthday coming up and I must go wrap some gifts to stay on her good side, if you know what I mean. Also (with chest all puffed out), I just found out Sunday that my son "Passed the Bar", so I need to pack up some wine bottles for my trip to Tinley Park this week (he lives downtown Chicago).

I'll check back later ... Bill

gainesreptiles.com

Bill, I would be a "small" snake breeder as I am 5'0" and weigh 95 lbs. I don't think at this point I will ever make it to be a "big" snake breeder, as I haven't grown a single inch in probably the last 35 years!! I try to remember the saying that "good things come in small packages" and hope that snake lovers everywhere remember that, when they are thinking of buying a boa or python from me!

Well if Tracy is right...

Then I am a pretty big breeder..*S*..

Terry

Everyone knows that you are only 95 pounds when carrying a couple of 10-pound buckets full of Blood Python eggs. I think the additional weight also pulls you down to around 4'9".

Well Tracy you sure are alot cuter than those Big breeders!!!!

I'd pick you out of that line up any day!

Hope Dave don't mind..

Sorry Bill, you gotta admidt she is cuter than you...LOL!

Take care All

Andy
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a list of people that make a profit selling Boas they produced,and the number of Boas produced, every year since their first litter.. From that list we could figure it out.
Quantifiable is good, but how many people are actually going to share the required info?

Kahl
Ihle
Ronne
Sharp

In no particular order, those four are obviously in the top ten..

Based on your response you implied 2 suggestions: (1) those making a profit selling boas, and (2) those producing a large number of boas.

Breeders do not need to disclose this information. A definition will stand on its own and the breeder can determine if he/she fit the definition.

When you say "we need to include only quantifiable ingredients and exclude perceptions", I sort of scratch my head. A descriptive word like "quantifiable" will never exist for the phrase "big breeders". It's all a mater of a point of reference and interpretation. When this phrase is used in a post or comment , the only question is what context it is used and if there is an agenda.

Does this stem from the idea that some of the smaller guys might point a condescending finger at some of the larger breeders when it comes to price fluctuations? If so, I don't see much of a conflict. IMO the buyers set the price not the breeders.

If you don't know if your a big breeder or not, I don't think anyone can help you with that.

Would it be a loaded question for me to ask who has the most valuable collection of boas in the opinions of anyone who might read this.

Leaving it up to each individual reader to interpret what "big breeder" means as used in the context simply adds to the current confusion. Case in point, what does "pricing" have to do with the definition of a "big breeder" ... the term must have hit a nerve.

And yes, a quantifiable definition would help me determine whether I am "big" or "not big" as defined by others in the hobby. I DO KNOW WHAT I AM per my personal definition of a "big breeder".

As to value of collection ... who in their right mind wants to put a target on their back.

just kidding.

I'd say a big breeder has a little bit of all of those qualities you listed.

To me, big breeders are those that first come to mind when thinking about a purchase. They have produced for some time and usually have several bloodlines of the animals.

I don't pay much attention to morphs, but as far as good locality boas go, Cutting edge and Rio bravo come to mind as the "big breeders". I would hit them up first for something. For other snakes, Bob Clark, Casey Lasik, Jason Nelson, and Yasser all come to mind. Quality certainly has something to do with it as well, big breeders often have higher quality breeders than some of the other breeders out there, more diversity and better colors.
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"I'll be back at 6 if not 7. 8 the very latest but definatly no later than 9...ish...Moscow time."

Gosh, I'm kinda disappointed in the lack of discussion on this topic ... it must have been a bad topic or simply bad timing to toss it out there.

Anyways, since I initiated this topic, let me share my definition of a "big breeder", more specifically a "big Boa breeder".

First, I am limiting my definition to only BREEDERS ... not resellers, collectors, etc.

Secondly, my definition is only for BOA breeders. You might be a "big Boa breeder", a "big Gecko breeder", a "big Ball Python breeder", etc., or a even "big Reptile breeder". How you quantify the word BIG will differ for different animals, hence I am staying focused on only boas. You might be a Small boa breeder, yet a BIG Ball Python breeder.

OK, now for the key word ... BIG. Personally, BIG to me is simply defined by the "Number of Active Breeders" with which an individual works. Note that I introduced another key word, ACTIVE". Exactly, what number of active breeders makes one a Small, Medium, or Large (aka BIG) breeder is still open for discussion. As a starting point, I'll throw out the following:

Small Breeder - 2 to 25 active breeders (note that I started with 2 ... I know what some are going to say, but for me, "it still takes 2"

Medium Breeder - 25 to 75 active breeders

Large (BIG) Breeder - over 75 active breeders (definitely over 100)

In summary, a "big Boa breeder" is anyone who works with breeder stock of more than 75-100 active breeders.

I like to keep it simple. Number of babies produced, total $$$ sales, etc. will in most cases be a function of the number of animals. I know some are more prolific than others, prices will vary, etc., so let's don't go there now.

Based on my definition and starting pointed above, I am interested in what others feel are good number ranges for Small, Medium, and Large/BIG. Feel free to contribute ... maybe we can come up with a consensus.

As far as who I prefer to buy from, it normally boils down to 2 things that have little to do with the size of their breeding stock. I go with the REPUTATION of the breeder and the AVAILABILITY of "rare" animals. I'll buy from you if you have a favorable reputation (earned though prior transactions, and consensus throughout the market), and I'll buy from you if you have a rare animal that I want and only a limited number of individuals have it. Small, Medium, or BIG, this is what it takes to get my hard-earned cash. Also, I buy Genes first, and Looks second ... another reason why REPUTATION is so important.

And on a closing note, I consider myself a Medium-sized BOA breeder. The maximum number of breeder stock that I feel I can comfortably manage by myself is 50. I don't like anyone else messing with my animals. Add yearlings and new neonates to my husbandry responsibilites, not to mention marketing/sales activities, and I have my hands full.

I don't envy BIG breeders at all; these guys (and gals) work around the clock, 7 days a week, make enormous sacrifices, and in many cases, assume large financial risks though investments in facilities and animals ... if they are successful, they deserve it!

Time for me to get back to packing for Tinley Park (Chicago). I just felt I needed to offer my editorial.

Thanks for listening ... Bill

I believe the number of active breeders would be a great definition for "size" of breeders. I do wonder where the break points should be. On thought, how many breeders would fit into the >75 breeder category? That might affect where to set the "big" breeder point. I'm thinking more like:

Small - 2 to 25 breeders
Medium - 25 to 50 breeders
Large - > 50 breeders
Huge (crazy) - > 100 breeders

By either count I am a small breeder about to grow into a medium breeder this fall

>>Gosh, I'm kinda disappointed in the lack of discussion on this topic ... it must have been a bad topic or simply bad timing to toss it out there.
>>
>>Anyways, since I initiated this topic, let me share my definition of a "big breeder", more specifically a "big Boa breeder".
>>
>>First, I am limiting my definition to only BREEDERS ... not resellers, collectors, etc.
>>
>>Secondly, my definition is only for BOA breeders. You might be a "big Boa breeder", a "big Gecko breeder", a "big Ball Python breeder", etc., or a even "big Reptile breeder". How you quantify the word BIG will differ for different animals, hence I am staying focused on only boas. You might be a Small boa breeder, yet a BIG Ball Python breeder.
>>
>>OK, now for the key word ... BIG. Personally, BIG to me is simply defined by the "Number of Active Breeders" with which an individual works. Note that I introduced another key word, ACTIVE". Exactly, what number of active breeders makes one a Small, Medium, or Large (aka BIG) breeder is still open for discussion. As a starting point, I'll throw out the following:
>>
>>Small Breeder - 2 to 25 active breeders (note that I started with 2 ... I know what some are going to say, but for me, "it still takes 2"
>>
>>Medium Breeder - 25 to 75 active breeders
>>
>>Large (BIG) Breeder - over 75 active breeders (definitely over 100)
>>
>>In summary, a "big Boa breeder" is anyone who works with breeder stock of more than 75-100 active breeders.
>>
>>I like to keep it simple. Number of babies produced, total $$$ sales, etc. will in most cases be a function of the number of animals. I know some are more prolific than others, prices will vary, etc., so let's don't go there now.
>>
>>Based on my definition and starting pointed above, I am interested in what others feel are good number ranges for Small, Medium, and Large/BIG. Feel free to contribute ... maybe we can come up with a consensus.
>>
>>As far as who I prefer to buy from, it normally boils down to 2 things that have little to do with the size of their breeding stock. I go with the REPUTATION of the breeder and the AVAILABILITY of "rare" animals. I'll buy from you if you have a favorable reputation (earned though prior transactions, and consensus throughout the market), and I'll buy from you if you have a rare animal that I want and only a limited number of individuals have it. Small, Medium, or BIG, this is what it takes to get my hard-earned cash. Also, I buy Genes first, and Looks second ... another reason why REPUTATION is so important.
>>
>>And on a closing note, I consider myself a Medium-sized BOA breeder. The maximum number of breeder stock that I feel I can comfortably manage by myself is 50. I don't like anyone else messing with my animals. Add yearlings and new neonates to my husbandry responsibilites, not to mention marketing/sales activities, and I have my hands full.
>>
>>I don't envy BIG breeders at all; these guys (and gals) work around the clock, 7 days a week, make enormous sacrifices, and in many cases, assume large financial risks though investments in facilities and animals ... if they are successful, they deserve it!
>>
>>Time for me to get back to packing for Tinley Park (Chicago). I just felt I needed to offer my editorial.
>>
>>Thanks for listening ... Bill
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Thanks, Dave. I do like my defintion. I am still having difficulty in knowing where to set the number range cut-offs between Medium and Large, primarily because I don't have a good feel for who is working with what numbers. You might have a good idea of expanding to additional categories (kinda like Large and X-Large). So we might have something like the following:

Small - 2 to 25
Medium - 25 to 50
Large - 50 to 75
X-Large (aka BIG) - 75 to 100
XX-Large (aka HUGH) - > 100

XXX - let's don't go here?

Range increments of 25 makes it clean and easy to remember ... just think 25,50,75, 100,>100.

Let's see what others have to say and maybe we can lock in a consensus. Now that would be a real accomplishment to attain a consensus on the open forum.

I do like the 25 increments, like you said easy to remember. One tiny tweak to clarify though, can't have the same number as the top of one range and the bottom of the next, so...

>>Small - 2 to 24
>>Medium - 25 to 49
>>Large - 50 to 74
>>X-Large (aka BIG) - 75 to 99
>>XX-Large (aka HUGH) - 100 or more
>>
>>XXX (aka OMG) - let's don't go there?
>>
Two may be the largest consensus we get
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Dave,

Not to pull fine hairs, but I would go with the following:

Small - 2 to 25
Medium - 26 to 50
Large - 51 to 75
X-Large (aka BIG) - 76 to 100
XX-Large (aka HUGH) - more than 100

XXX (aka OBSCENE) - let's don't go there?

Easier cut-offs to remember ... at least for me.

Maybe a consensus of only 2, but at least we will be able to talk to each other and understand what the other is saying.

>>Dave,
>>
>>Not to pull fine hairs, but I would go with the following:
>>
>>Small - 2 to 25
>>Medium - 26 to 50
>>Large - 51 to 75
>>X-Large (aka BIG) - 76 to 100
>>XX-Large (aka HUGH) - more than 100
>>
>>XXX (aka OBSCENE) - let's don't go there?
>>
>>Easier cut-offs to remember ... at least for me.
>>
>>Maybe a consensus of only 2, but at least we will be able to talk to each other and understand what the other is saying.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

That sounds pretty good to me to, but I would change 1 thing.
I think if a person has less than 10 active breeders they'd be considered a Hobby Breeder.

Hobby Breeder - 2 to 9
Small - 10 to 25
Medium - 26 to 50
Large - 51 to 75
X-Large (aka BIG) - 76 to 100
XX-Large (aka HUGH) - more than 100

XXX (aka OBSCENE) - let's don't go there?

Not a bad idea. I am sure there are plenty of those out there.

Again, works for me, now there are three of us an overwhelming majority since there are no dissenters.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

We are good to go...LOL... Sounds like good numbers, but I don't like the idea of having a number of animals place a pro or non-pro status on somones breeding stock.. Maybe it's just me...LOL...
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
www.reptileinsider.com

Not the number of animals, the number of ACTIVE breeders. If it were the number of animals, many of us would tip into XXL breeders when all the litters come. And then drift back down as they were sold off.

>>We are good to go...LOL... Sounds like good numbers, but I don't like the idea of having a number of animals place a pro or non-pro status on somones breeding stock.. Maybe it's just me...LOL...
>>-----
>>Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com
>>www.reptileinsider.com
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC)
0.2 kids (CBB, selectively bred from good stock)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
13.26 BRB
11.16 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I guess it would be a hobby for me as I only have 2 pairs.
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1.0 ghost
1.1 albino
0.1 het albino

n/p