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I am going to starting a project involving the breeding of different ssp of kingsnake who naturaly intergrade in the wild to prove or disprove a theory on Outer Banks Kings. My first question is, is there anyone who has done this and what were the results, secondly what should I do with the offspring of the subsequent breedings? I plan to use F1 offspring from the original parents ( so I can keep more snakes!!)to start the mixing of ssp. Keep in mind I am a purest when it comes to my snakes, not a locality junkie but I just don't like the mixing of say different rat snakes together, NOT that there is anything wrong with it, it's just not my bag. I'm doing this project for my thesis ( a long way off!).
How do you guys feel about it?
Oh, the ssp I am mixing are E.king; Fl. king and blotched king ( the blotched is just for flavor and a control group)

Thanks, Blue

I don't think you can prove anything regarding OBKs even if you bred the subs together for 100 years. I could be mistaken but I would think thousands of years and huge numbers of snakes would have to be in the picture while things solidified for color and patterns for snakes like Goini and OBKs. You will undoubtedly make lots of cool looking Kings but it won't prove too much. Just an opinion....... I love crosses and some hate them. Just keep your records straight so you can properly identify them when they sell Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I agree with Tom. A couple of generations worth of captive breeding isn't going to prove anything about OBX populations. Ethics wise, if you have some personal concerns and it doubtful you'l prove anything don't do it.

I'd agree with the other guys......especially if you're not even going to be using an OBK in the project?? Ken Krysko in his work for "meansi" did DNA tests on the OBKs and found them to be genetically identical to the mainland populations of L.g.g. I'm not sure what you want to try and prove out, but there are some things already in print that you may want to look at first.
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Ace

are you saying DNA is the same w/ OBK and Meansi?

No, I'm sorry if it sounded like that. Krysko found that the Outer Banks Kings mtDNA were "identical to adjacent mainland snakes as well as those as far away as SW Georgia." He states this in his dissertation.
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Ace

thanx ,but said mtDNA is that partial ???????im a dummy but every individual has different DNA ,dont know a thing about reading a strand,but im thinkin you can focus on particular similarities.DEE DUDEE.L8r my Friends.C

I'm not going to pretend to know squat about DNA but I believe mtDNA can be used to show ancestry.

The way I understand it, snakes in an integrade range will have mtDNA that shows which populations they came from. If the mtDNA shows OBK is the same as their mainland brothers, then even though their pattern may be distinctive, they come from the same population, and most likely have their distinctive look because at some point it was more advantageous.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

Funkyres is pretty much right, it's DNA passed from mother to offspring, and is used to trace ancestry for generations.

Maybe this will help explain it better than I could........
{url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA[/url]
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Ace

Sorry about that, the link is....
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA
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Ace

When I first started posting here, I wasn't fond of hybrids and while I felt I had no right to impose my personal opinion on others, I was not going to make any or put any in my collection. I didn't even want integrades unless they were a natural occuring integrade.

However, I have seen some absolutely AWESOME integrades and hybrids - and at the end of the day, they are still snakes - and captive snakes at that.

There was no logical reason for my previous position. I'm still probably not going to produce any, not for awhile anyway - but at some point in time, I think I might buy some just because some of them look so freaking cool.

Even if they rarely (or never) happen "in the wild" - no captive snake is "in the wild" anyway.

Just my thoughts. I do think there should be breeders keeping lines pure to subspecies, phenotype, and even locality, but there are - there are plenty of breeders doing just that.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

However, I have seen some absolutely AWESOME integrades and hybrids - and at the end of the day, they are still snakes - and captive snakes at that.

There was no logical reason for my previous position. I'm still probably not going to produce any, not for awhile anyway - but at some point in time, I think I might buy some just because some of them look so freaking cool.

You know when you decide to come out of the closet you will be so much happier.

>secondly what should I do with the offspring of the subsequent breedings?

Kill the ones not needed to continue the project.

Paul Hollander

Gents, thanks for the input! Ace, do you have a link for that data? I have looked every where and Iknow it was on the EK site, but it won't open for me ( too many pics I think . Paul, kill them off? Realy? I did think of that, although there may be some people who have wild caught kings that they can't get to eat, or even people with baby cobras.. Thanks again to all.

Sure thing!!! This is a 169 page PDF file, so it does take a LONG time to D/L using dial up (fair warning)

etd.fcla.edu/UF/UFE0000326/KKryskodissertation.pdf

The part I'm referring to is on page 127 of the document, or PDF page 137.
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Ace