Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This little guy came from Don Soderberg @ South Mountain Reptiles.

ENJOY !!
Walter

......... pic.

ENJOY !!
Walter

Congrats on a truly awesome looking specimen of corn.
You can't begin to imagine how envious I am of you. grrrr.....

SO, am I to assume the pied-sided Bloods ARE genetic?
Recessive, co-dom/dom or polygenetic??

Excuse my igorance, I've been busy the last year or so, and my corn genetics knowledge has become 'dusty'. lol

Thanks for any info, and congrats again.

Envy, envy, envy.

BB
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"Have you hugged your drummer today?" --- Me

Nice, looks like the white wall genetics work nice with the bloods. a nice clean one should look fantastic.

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www.uk-hybrids.com

....... This trait is NO relation WHAT-SO-EVER to ANY of the White-Sided traits out there.

It's a totally different trait found in a Bloodred line.

Thanks, Walter

how can you be so sure on that.

you know that the hybridizing of corn snakes for pattern anomalies and colour creation has been going on for years, how can you be so sure that a back crossed hybrid blood carrying the white wall genetics but not showing it hasnt accidently been used to spark off what you have.

Just some thoughts, im not trying to create an argument with you or anything like that.

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www.uk-hybrids.com

I agree with you 100% but there is no proof any of our snakes are 100% corns. which stinks, but some people will just breed anything to anything....like a guy at the petshop asked what it would look like if he bred a boa to a python....i know someone else said that happened to them...but i just about laughed my hiney off when he asked me that....but the guy at the petshop said....its kinda not possible. but thats the main problem in our hobby...no one can tell if its the real deal or not... we just have to take peoples words for it. i personally have nothing wrong with hybrids...but trying to sell them off as full corns makes me mad. dont ask me why...it just does... but thats just my 2 cents
~kin
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~SNAKIES~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Corns:
.1 Normal (Gertrude) [just a pet...she started it all]
1. unknown hypo? normal? (Romeo)
1.2 Miami Phase (Hector, Emily, Charlotte) thanks jeff!
1. Miami Phase partial zigzag (Starkey)[Emilys F2 baby]
1. Amel het Blizzard (Dunesbury)
1. Classic het Hypo, poss het Amel, Anery (Cobra)
1.1 Classics (Henry VIII, Cassy) [Emilys F1 babies]
.1 Amel (Pepperoni)
1.1 Hypo zig zags poss HET Caramel (Bernard, Abegail)
.1 Hypo HET Stripe (Gracie Lou)
1.1 Anery HET Motley (Lleroy, Persia)
.1 Candy Cane (Peaches HoneyBlossom) [Just a pet]
1. Abbotts Okeetee (Albert) [Charlottes son]
1.1 Snow (NO NAME, Isis)

Others:
1.1 Black rats (Willard, Cecily)
1.1 Striped Cal Kings (Dweezil, Skunky)
1. High-white Spotted Cal King (Wishbone)
.1 Albino Stripe Cal King (Eve)
1. MSP Thayeri (no name)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~LEOPARD GECKOS~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1. Normal het Midnight Blizzard (Mr. Spot)
.1 Blizzard (Blitz)
.1? unknown High yellow and brown spots...hypo?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~TURTLES~~~~~~~~~~~~
.1 white cheeked mud (Opel)
.1 snapping turtle (no name, ideas welcome)

~~~~~~~~~~~~OTHER~~~~~~~~~~~~
0.0.1 American toad

I understand you are not trying to start an argument.

This trait was discovered from the breeding of a male Bloodred with small patches of PIED markings around the neck area that I purchased from a friend back in, ohhhh 1999/2000.

It was bred to a female with just a couple white markings along the latterals where it met the belly line, owned by Don Soderberg ( a totaly UNRELATED bloodline ). I got her on breeding loan due to the lack of a female. I did this breeding to simply see if the PIED trait was genetic.

Don got most of the F1 offspring from this breeding and when these F1's were bred together, the PIED trait manifested in a little greater amount than what the original male displayed.

Another thing, the "White-Sided" trait ( in ANY of the white-sided species produced to date ) DOSE NOT manifest in random splotching, but in a way that the animal is totaly white-sided the TOTAL lenght of the snake, from head to tail.

This is not the case in the Pied-Sided Bloodreds. As in the Pied Ball Pythons some could show a degree of Pied anywhere from 10% to 50%, which I don't believe there have been any with more than that. In the pics. I posted you are seeing the better side of that snake. The other side dosen't have half that much Pied markings.

Thanks, Walter

Okay, is your sheepdog pure sheepdog? Sure. As pure as can be expected. Not because of how it looks and not because the UKC says it's pure, but because you don't see signs of anything else in it. If you pour a cup of milk in the swimming pool, it's still a pool of swimming water. The milk disappeared. I'm not making a case for purity or thorobred validity. Just saying that none of us really knows what's in our pets. Even if you catch a corn in the wild, you can't say with 100% certainty it's a pure corn. So in the absence of DNA testing, all we have to go on is history of the lines we have AND the looks of the snake. You sure wouldn't say an albino corn was probably part black rat just because there are red eyed albino black rats.

Walter is right. All the known North American rat snake species we currently breed that have a white sided representative gene are an on/off gene. They either have fully white sides or not at all. No random, partial white zones. Since there are no recessive pie bald rat snakes being bred at this time, it can't come from them either.

So, now that we have established that the white zones you see in the bloodred corns are nothing like the white sided rat snakes, there isn't anything else to compare to. Pie bald ball pythons and most other serpent species with this gene have it randomly, unpredictably and asymmetrically all over their bodies. Hence, I called these pied sided bloods. The white zones are random and asymmetric, unlike the white sided rat snakes. The white zones on my bloods so far are only on the sides and a little on the face so I didn't want to call them pie bald. If I had done that, we'd just be changing it when the REAL pie bald corn appears.

The history Walter gave of the origins of my line is accurate. I got the female bloodred from a guy in Colorado in the mid 90s. I've been breeding her to this and that bloodred male for many years. Never got anything remarkable or suspicious. Then, when Walter wanted to co-op breed it to the male he had with lots of white on the sides, we got unremarkable babies. A couple of them had (at most) three or four patches of one to four scales of white on the sides. Always connected to the ventral white. I estimate that only one or two of the F1s had this adjunct lateral white. I know I only had one F1 with that any such white. Then, last year when I bred the F1 males (and the matriarch) to the F1 males, I got 19 pied sided bloods. I'm not prepared to say it's simple recessive. I'm also not prepared to say it's linked to bloods, but I strongly suspect it is. This year begins breeding trials to learn more about the genetics of this line. One of my 2005 customers is already breeding his homozygous male to other snakes. Others like Rob and I will be breeding our 2005 homos to non bloods to start those breeding trials too.

So, "are the pied sided bloods pure corns?". Dunno. They show NO signs of being hybrids or intergrades. If someone was suspicious these are hybrids simply because they don't look like pure corn or because they saw white on another species before, I guess ALL new genetics of snakes would be suspect products of hybridization. Until DNA testing becomes more affordable, I guess we're left with trusting the information we receive from reputable breeders. In my case, the guy I got mine from is one of the most honest guys I've ever known. BTW, he's a ball python breeder and never had any other rat snake species when he turned that female over to me right out of the egg.

Finally, as Walter pointed out, there is NO other North American colubrid species I'm aware that have random white zones on the sides. This trait could not have been derived from white sided snakes since those snakes have ALL white sides.
South Mountain Reptiles

Don let me start by saying this question has nothing to do with you, your stock, nor anyone's stock. But what I see as an issue for the future.

With all the hybrids now being tried, how does one "define" pure? Or at what point do you get back to "pure"

As you mentioned about a dogs history, it is pure because AKC says it is. It meets a standard and there is some short record of lineage. But working at a shop, I see a lot of home hobbyists or families with kids breeding corns beardies leo etc etc. I know hybrids will drop in the market as "what ever name comes close". So if someone bred a corn to yellow rat, someone would surely pick up one of these intergrades and breed it as a corn. Influencing the outcome for a long time. I presume correct?

I knew a guy at the Cleveland show that soaked his ball pythons in orange Gatorade. I know some unreputable person will milk this situation to say they came up with an outrageous morph.

But if this intergrade is bred back to all corns, how many generations would it be considered "pure" again?

I realize this question is probably unanswerable, but this is just one of the problems I see with hybrids.

Just my Opinion
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

When someone brings up this hybrid issue in a thread about a "new" corn morph, people may perceive that the purity of the new morph is in question. It would make better sense to wait a few days and start a new, unrelated thread that brings up the hybrid question.

If these snakes had markings that weren't bloodred, I could see where someone may scratch their heads, but when this white has never been seen in any other colubrid morph and all other aspects of it are just what one would expect to see in a bloodred corn, it isn't likely anything other than corn. AND most hybrid colubrids exhibit markers for the contributing species. Yes, eventually they can back breed to corns and produce snakes that don't have those alien markers. There is no valid answer as to how many generations it takes to bring them back to corns, but I do know this. If you went back in a time machine a million years ago, you wouldn't find one single corn in Florida. Maybe even 50,000 years ago back. All modern colubrids are the results of hybridization. Nature's way of adapting to environmental and geographical changes.

I'm no dog expert, but it sure seems to me that all the breeds of dogs out there didn't just walk out of the woods one day. I suspect you could get the same time machine results with dogs. When people saw that breeding a wire haired, short-legged dog to their tall, short haired running canine made a product they really liked better than both parents, they went with it. They line-bred those to promote the new look. Likewise, in nature, when a hybrid product is more successful than it's progenators, it dominates the local gene pool by virtue of surviving over its competitors to be the only sperm donaters in the race. Eventually, we have the swimming pool scenario. Can't see the milk. "The solution to pollution is dilution."

I got off on a quasi-tangent there, Big Tom. I see you're not pointing to the p/s bloods and crying "hybrid", but I wanted to take this opportunity to point out that association and timing are effectual. When someone brings up "hybrid" in a thread that deals with a new corn gene, some of the readers out there will start thinking "hybrid". If it's just their opinion, in this case it points out that this person was unaware that the pied sided effect is not found in any other potential contributing colubrid morph.

BTW, years ago a friend told me about a time he went bird hunting with his black Lab. It was registered. While hunting, he came upon a stunning black Lab without a collar. He took it home and upon examinging it, found it to be a nearly perfect example of the breed. He used his AKC papers from another dog to create papers for the puppies it sired. Hence, it was not a registered dog (that he was aware), but fraudulently entered into the pedigree of who-knows-how-many lines of that breed. Hence, UKC and AKC are only as valid as the information registered with them. DNA is the only way we have now of "ensuring" the purity of animal genetics. The human element always seems to foul up the works, doesn't it?
South Mountain Reptiles

I just liked your milk in the pool. I thought the use of milk was tactful on your part! lol

I'm no expert, but I am old enough to know what happens in real life. Much like your friend and his dog. Someone can buy a bloodred from you, and post pictures, and then swap a different snake to show a snake not of your line. LORD, I hate to help morons with ideas, but it will and does happen.

This issue is not going away, and most of it is going to hit the market fast. I'm just a novice , and no inspiration to move much higher. But I had herps at the age of 13 in 1972. I've known a few main herper guys for many years and have known of others a long time too.

I hate to see anymore BS hit this hobby, if that is the correct word "hobby". I personally told Norm Damn he was nuts for breeding Hondurans back in about 1974? as we were all collecting burms and retics. I'll never forget telling him who in the world is really going to want those tiny snakes? LMAO DUH.

I hate to see years of work from people like him, Tim who I know now and greatly respect, and people like you, Kathy and so many others that put in so many years.

Sorry , I was getting pithed.

Oh yea, point is, there are people that are reputable, and those out to make a fast buck. The mutt wave is upon us and IMO it needs to be talked about a lot, and in detail. Also by people like you, and others, so wannabes can not BS the masses. Also so people reading these boards can help spread CORRECT information.
IMOOC

But again, your milk example had me thinking, just how fast could someone sneak something in, and no one know? 3 years per generation, 3 generations per decade. Is 10 years enough to hide something? I guess I was asking more on the idea I want to know, so I do not get scammed.

Again, sorry to tag the idea so close. But Don, I think people are thinking it anyways. When I go to the Cleveland show, I listen to people that don't know I'm listening. Between mutts, 71231 ball python morphs, 8340 boa morphs, laws crashing down, people are going to be even more deceitful than normal. Zoo imports just sent out an email saying they are getting out of herps soon. No loss to me, but I think it is a sign of what's coming.

Off topic I want some of those cool rats you have bad. I should be setting up about 400 breeding rats. God knows how many mice. But I love odd ball stuff. I hope to get to texas to see my brother, then Johnho, and I was hoping to beg a visit to your place.

Thanks for listening to my babble.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

This isn't the thread to discuss hybrids.
South Mountain Reptiles

Don't foget, Don...I have that female outcrossed blood that came from one of the pied-sided clutches, and she should be breedable next year to a pied-sided male...we may know more about the recessiveness of this gene very soon!
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Yeah, we'll see what happens. Thanks for the reminder.
South Mountain Reptiles