Reptile & Amphibian Forums

could any one direct me to a site that would have the base vital values on some of the more common species of reptiles?
as a vet tech in training i need to learn the baseliones on several species. and by vitals i mean pulse, respirations, beats of the heart from the heart, normal weight ranges, etc

when taking pulse where do you feel for it in snakes, lizards, turtles, ect. or is it just best to take heart rate values and skip the pulse anyway it goes.

thanks

Ashley
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"I’m scared of those nasty big-eyed grey aliens, too. I think it’s that I don’t understand their motivations. I am confident of my ability to out-think, out-con, or if need be, tire-iron-upside-the-head demonic forces, ghosts and goblins, things that go bump in the night, etc. It’s the notion of something that doesn’t have any desire to talk to me except via anal probe that freaks me out"

Whoops!! This was supposed to be a reply to this post in the beginning, I have NO idea how that message got misplaced. Silly Internet.

Do you mean to monitor vitals during anesthesia, or for a GPE?

Vitals have little importance in a physical exam. Pulse will vary with stress (and many species will undoubtedbly be stressed during an exam), as will respirations (smaller, more nervous species may become apneic if they suspect they are being watched by or are being handled by a "predator" , normal weight ranges have not been standardized (and will vary seasonally- you are better off going with a BCS), and temperature is obviously not necessary to take because these animals are ectothermic...

For a GPE, focus more on the client's husbandry practices and a good once-over (or twice-over) of the patient's body. Husbandry questions include, but are not limited to:

Enclosure:
-Size and type of enclosure (including materials it is made out of, and proper attention to how the dimensions are oriented, i.e.: Tall vs. short and wide?).
-Substrate and cage furniture.
-Cagemates: Their size, sex and species.
-Other herps kept in the same house (same room? Order in which they are serviced and if a hand-washing regimen is followed?).
-Frequency of enclosure cleaning and products used.
-Time spent outside of the enclosure, handled by whom (children?) and at what time of day? Is free-roaming allowed?

Feeding:
-What type of diet?
-How is food kept alive or stored? If live food how are they gut-loaded? Are supplements used?
-Where is the food bought from? Is it bred and raised at home? How?
-Frequency of feeding? How is food presented?
-Does the owner re-use uneaten food items from other animals ("prey recycling" , or from other days (ex: frozen mouse not eaten, refrozen then fed again)?
-Is live prey removed from the enclosure if uneaten? What is the animal's feeding response (ravenous, moderate or typically uninterested)?

Heating:
-What is the temperature gradient provided (day AND night)? How many thermometres are used to monitor the temps, and how often are the thermometres checked?
-What kind of heating device is used, and where is it located relative to the enclosure?
-Does the owner cycle the temperatures seasonally? How and when?

Humidity:
-Is humidity monitored?
-Are microenvironments provided to allow the reptile a choice of humidity ranges (ex: humid hides)?

Lighting:
-Is broad-spectrum lighting (including UV-B wavelengths) provided if this species needs it? Where is the light located, how far is it from the animal, and are there any barriers between the bulb and the animal (glass, plastic cover over bulb, screen from enclosure...)?
-What is the photoperiod? Is a timer used to control the lights? When the enclosure lights are off, are other room lights frequently left on?

For the GPE, examine everything! You can find thorough guides to examining herps if you look. Melissa Kaplan's "Picking a Healthy Reptile" (http://www.anapsid.org/pickingreps.html) provides some basics, and I have guides for both lizards (http://www.herptiles.net/lizardhealth.html) and amphibians (http://www.herptiles.net/amphibianhealth.html) on my site.

As for body condition scoring (BCS), this can be done similar to with dogs or cats, just there is no standard scale like the 1-5 or 1-10 in canine and feline patients. See the above links for ideas of what is important to look for: Muscle wasting and protruding bones are signs of being underweight; obesity may be spotted by large fatty swellings on limbs (not to be mistaken with fibrous osteodystrophy that accompanies nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (often ambiguously called MBD or metabolic bone disease)!), under arms and around the jaws. Personally I would like to see some more solid standards set for BCS's in reptiles, I may take this project on myself at some point.

Anesthetic monitoring of vitals is of course much more useful. Standards are not set in most species because of the infrequency of them being on the operating table.

During anesthesia, ectotherms should be kept within their optimal temperature zone, so the table or surrounding air should be monitored, and not so much the animal itself.

Most reptiles will cease respiration when at a surgical plane of anesthesia. One contributor to this could be the use of oxygen as a transport medium for the anesthetic: Unlike mammals whose respiratory drive is motivated by CO2 buildup, respiration in reptiles is stimulated by hypoxia. Since the anesthetic machine is delivering plenty of oxygen, the patient does not have the physiologic motivation to breathe. Manual ventilation becomes necessary to keep the herp anesthetized. In Green Iguanas, the normal respiratory rate at 24C (75F) is 15-30 beats/minute according to Jacobson's Biology, Husbandry and Medicine of the Green Iguana.

Heart function is difficult to monitor with a stethoscope because of the small size of the animal (usually) and the anatomy of the reptilian heart. An ECG, with alligator clips, hypodermic needles or stainless steel sutures attached like in mammals (or leads placed caudal and cranial to the heart in snakes) will allow you to visualize heart rate, and by establishing normals before anesthesia, you can monitor changes in the PQRST complex (standards for reptilian electrocardiography are not described); note that ECG in small species will not work. A Doppler may be used over a large artery to audibly monitor heartrate, and pulse oximetry works quite well with a rectal probe in the cloaca. According to Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery (I'm still stuck on the first edition), you can use the following formula to predict normal heartbeat frequency per minute:
hbf = 33.4 (W^-0.25)
Where hbf= heartbeats per minute, W = body weight in kilograms

Mader's book is an absolute must-have for anyone serious about reptile medicine, but the 1200-page second edition will set you back $130US (my reason for not purchasing it yet). My text for Exotic Animal Care was Exotic Animal Medicine for the Veterinary Technician by Ballard and Cheek, and I found it pale and basic in some aspects, and containing a few critical mistakes (let it be known that Green Iguanas are herbivores, NOT oppurtunistic omnivores, even as juveniles!). I'm currently waiting to receive a copy of the British Veterinary Nursing Association's Reptile Nursing review booklet, curious to see how good of a summary it is. I've heard good things about Veterinary Nursing of Exotic Pets by Girling, but have not seen it myself.

Feel free to ask more questions, of course. I'm sure others will also have some input.

Christina
www.herptiles.net

I just got the 2nd edition Mader and it's superbly superb You won't be disappointed Christina!

To add a few things to your response, of which first of all, I'll have to disagree with the use of TPR's on exam. While of limited value on stressed animals, it's still somewhat usefull just as it is on stressed out cats for example. It does provide you a baseline of what to expect for subsequent visits and to allow for you to judge how transport to the clinic has masked or exaggerated any other symptoms. Other, more obvious examples would be like taking the temperature of a 25kg tortoise, or a 10kg iguana. If you're getting a temp of 15C then this animal didn't leave a 30C environment only an hour before (unless perhaps it arrives on the owner's shoulder in a snowstorm), and thus husbandry can be judged without even asking the owner. With all this said, the TPR isn't the first thing to look at during a vet visit, as you often learn more by a distance exam first.

Also, stethoscopes can be tried, but the doppler is wicked at finding a heart rate, (and pulse in larger animals) and takes minimal settup and is less stressfull than ECG's.

Finally, while you're right on the hypoxia theory, reptiles in surgical plane anesthesia have lost the voluntary muscle control they use to breathe. It is suggested, and important to have a electronic respirator to breathe for the reptile for major surgeries.

My sources for information are Dr. Hernandez-Divers of the U of Georgia's VIN course Basic Reptile Medicine 2005. I havn't read that far in Mader yet

To the original poster, you'll find that both of these responses lack the real answer to your question. Variability is huge among the 7000 species of reptiles.
Temperature- normal limits are in the POTR
Pulse- instead of concentrating on normal ranges, I'm more concerned on if the heart is doing it's job. Does it sound abnormal (never mind the lub-dub, but listen for murmers and "wooshes" for abnormalities). Is it relatively fast (>90-100) on an alert, agile species like a varanid, elapid, or insectavorous lizard that is in it's POTR ect.
Respiratory Rate- Is it breathing? 10-30 resp/min is normal for most herps in the POTR unless recently stressed/active.
mm/CRT- mm colour varies immensely... know your species, and if unsure, look for CHANGE in the history. Simply ask the owner what the colour of the gums are normally. CRT should be as is for mammals in the POTR.

*** before I posted this, I scanned Mader and there is no appendix for TPR values, nor a chapter or subchapter dedicated to this information so I don't think Christina or I are that out to lunch by not having actual values for you ***

Hope this helps

Ian

Thank you both very, very much for your responce. i nearly gave up hope on getting any answers to my questions. I am in my first semester of school and am still learningthe lingo, what is POTR? i hate to sound so new, but you never know if you dont ask right?

again i really do apprciate all of this.

Ashley
-----
"I’m scared of those nasty big-eyed grey aliens, too. I think it’s that I don’t understand their motivations. I am confident of my ability to out-think, out-con, or if need be, tire-iron-upside-the-head demonic forces, ghosts and goblins, things that go bump in the night, etc. It’s the notion of something that doesn’t have any desire to talk to me except via anal probe that freaks me out"

Prefered Optimal Temperature Range

You may also see POTZ (Zone) or other variations... They all mean the same but are used in respect to every species having a different temperature range preference.

Ian

Touche on that one

Do you find these techniques useful in small species? I had a mental image of trying to hear abnormal heart sounds with a stethoscope on a leopard gecko, lol.

Right now I only have access to the VSPN articles... Whenever I'm at work I never have time to check out the VIN pages!

And since you mentioned mm/CRT, I couldn't help but post this one:

My female Acanthosaura capra's healthy mouth- the purple colouration is normal for this species.

Speaking of books... Have you read O'Malley's Clinical Anatomy and Physiology of Exotic Animals? Thumbs up or down?

This week I'll be removing an abcess from my iguana's palm, I'll be sure to post photos.

Christina

Havn't read that book yet... what year was it published?

For the smaller herps, a stethoscope is only as good as ones hearing. Even with a small design and short length (stethscope), if you can't here the detail you're out of luck. An ECG might be helpfull, yet readings arn't well defined in reptiles... let alone species to species. If concerned about cardiopathy in a small species, ultrasound might be the best diagnostic. I spoke with the local ultrasonophager (is that how you spell it?) and he said all it would require is a small probe with less hertz. This of course, means your DVM would also have to become familiar with normal sonograms. Between a rock and a hard place eh,

Ian

Sorry for the tardy reply. The book was published in 2005... I had a quick peek through it last January, it looks pretty thorough but looks can be deceiving.
http://www.us.elsevierhealth.com/product.jsp?isbn=9780702027826

With herp medicine I find we're often between a hot rock and a hard place... lol

Christina