Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I would hate to keep bothering you on the monitor forum for tort info, but you seem to have a wealth of information for most reptiles, and frankly I cant find any other ways to reach you.

My question is fairly simple: Do you hibernate your torts or no? This is a question aimed specifically at your mediteranean species (what was the tort you posted laying a few weeks ago?), as I am not sure what other species you keep. I just keep getting people telling me to hibernate my russians, and others that say not to, and they all have valid points. The one main thing I am concerned about is that the people in favor of hibernation insist that not hibernating will lead to kidney problems in the future.

Thanks for putting up with me. I really enjoy coming to this forum and trying to find what monitor info can be applied to the other reptiles I keep. I think most of you guys have a great grasp on how to give your animals what they really need, and thats something that is otherwise very uncommon in the reptile trade.

And to make it about monitors, I do not hibernate them either. I also do not hibernate snakes as well.

In nature, hibernation is to escape adverse conditions. Its not about reproduction. Other then if they do not make it thru the winter, then of course they would not be able to breed. They must survive winter. Or even drought, hmmmmmmmmm they go down for that too(estivate) Its the same, escape adverse conditions.

The problem, as I see it is, humans do not think animals have a brain. The humans think they must do everything for the animal. The problem is, humans are not very smart. Our government acts the same way, it must tell other governments what to do. Hmmmmmm they are not so good at that either.

Reptiles use cool and warm temps, all the time, year a round. Unless stopped by adverse conditions in natuce and naive keepers.

The design of reptiles is to not maintain a single temp, but to use a range of temps. If you allow them to do what they want, they reproduce. If not, they don't. It really is all that simple.

Of course you can dial in a program of hibernation(winter) a temperature range(spring) constant temps(summer) and again some temp range(fall) and if you get it just right, your reptiles will reproduce. But if you get it a little off, you get infertiles and such.

On the otherhand, if you let them pick what they want, you simply do not have to deal with all that decision making stuff and simply enjoy the reptiles making their own decisions and doing so, when THEY want. Its realy very educational. AFter all, aren't we suppose to learn from the animals and not tell the animals what to do and when??????

The problem is, you can tell them what to do, then tell everyone that is what the animals are, or you can ask the animals what they want to do, and tell others THAT is what they are, or do a combination of all that and again, say that is what the animals are and do.

The very point and what drives me nuts is, people saying(including and specially academics)that reptiles do this and DO NOT DO THIS. The problem is and you have seen it here. I am constantly allowing reptiles to do what they are not suppose to do. OVER AND OVER AND OVER. And I allow it, not by telling the reptiles what to do(forced hibernation as an example) but instead, by supporting them in what they choose to do.

Indeed they can hibernate if they want, but the rarely do, they can stay active and breed year a round, or at any season they choose. Or change if they want. Funny thing is, I live where torts live, and the females that will lay the next year, do not hibernate. They are active year a round. The babies are gone most of the year, and the males go down for long periods, as do the non breeders. My guess is, they know what they are doing.

Recently one person indicated that it seems ladies are the only ones who can breed rudies, hahahahahahahahaha its not about being a lady, its only about being sensitive to the animals. Give them what they ask for and you will be find. Give them what other people tell you to give them, and it could be fine or have lots of problems. Its your and their choice.

I simply find it more fun to let and support the animals in their choices. As I feel the animals are expert at being them. Tht sentence sounds odd, the animals are the experts, hmmmmmm.

My old female cross just laid her 64th clutch. And I did not ask her too. No hibernation, no photoperiod adjustments and no raincycle. Just support. One dang female laid 64 clutches. That sir is award winning. That could never happen if she was hibernated. Cheers

Very great points. One more thing that I'd like to hear you address (if you have the time) which is the concern that not hibernating causes reptiles to continuously build up reserves which somehow causes kidney problems in the future. In all your years have you ever experienced anything like this, or would you attribute that more to innappropriate husbandry in general?

Kidney failure is caused by horrible conditions, period. The body is shutting down. And of course severe or chronic dehydration, is the most common cause. But from lack of hibernation?????

Wow, looks like a missed another problem my animals were suppose to get.

No offense, if you give animals choices they understand, its nearly impossible to kill them. I never see, URI, or mouthrot, or kidney anything, or calcium desease. All I see is offspring. Too darn many of them, to tell you the truth.

I simply do not understand why people have to make rules. If someone wants to hibernate reptiles, good on them. But it surely is not a rule. And I will compare my success with anyones.

Oh by the way, our golden greeks laid their eggs during the winter inside, after being outside all summer. Lets see what they do this winter. My bet is, they will lay again.

I do understand, your wondering why all these rules about this and that. As you have seen counterdictions already. The reality is, its only about people and what they understand. Its not about the animals. ITs far easier for folks to follow instructions, then actually observe the animal. Maybe, its like buying an assembling a model plane or car. You buy it, you follow instructions, you finish, then move to the next one. But animals are not models. Cheers

I think you can probably tell that last post was bait. Great information in that post. How old are your goldens? I think I remember you posting something about having had them for a long time.

Anyways, yeah, people do seem to make a lot of rules for reptiles, and I especially notice that they seem to think these rules are set in stone, or even worse, they do things worse and somehow see success in it (like keeping beardies on shelfliner with 90f basking spots). I don't have anything against people doing things the way they do it if they find success in it, but it's just so hard to get people to have an open mind and try new things.

Ever talked to a 'reptile collector'? By this I mean the typical reptile collector that thinks caresheets, out of date books, and reptiles magazine are all gospel, yet still doesn't even provide the things that those publications deemed necessary (when it's really just the bare necessities anyways). I've met a lot of people like this, who's reptile room is full of 10 and 20 gallon tanks over stuffed with reptiles because they bought one, then before considering how they could better provide for it, bought another, and so on. I'm sure you've met people like that. I meet people like that every day I am at work (I work at a crappy chain pet store...I'll give you two guesses). Imagine how much I would like to get a new job about now!

for now at least....

You've got so much first hand experience, which is something that most other people don't have. I'm sure you've probably covered this before, but what are your feelings on supplements? What do you feed your goldens in general, actually? I don't use UV bulbs, so I use calcium w/ vitamin d3 every other feeding (especially with the tortoises). What do you do as far as calcium/ vitamin d3 is concerned?

I'm just so curious for some reason.

If you feed reptiles well, suppliments are not necessary. I have never felt a need to give torts suppliments, so I cannot give advice there. They simply have not needed it.

As for monitors, I do give suppliments to monitors who mainly consume crickets. Thats it, end of suppliment story.

We purchase our Greeks as adults, only they were not, as they doubled in size before laying their first eggs.

In a nutshell, folks do and preach all this and that(suppliments and UV) in an effort to patch the holes in a bad boat(their boat is sinking) I think its a far better idea to build a good boat and not worry about it sinking(or patching holes that do not exsist). Cheers

I am hereby volunteering to edit and do all the spell checking on Frank's new book, "Everything You Know About Reptiles is WRONG".....The complete guide on how to give your herps what they really want.

That might go against his saying "the more you read, the less you breed" hahahahaha. I would love to see him write a book. I would read it.

He actually kinda does have a book though. Look through the forum archives and read everything FR has to say. Could that be a book?