Reptile & Amphibian Forums

at least the best I hatched out Really this snake is unbelievably cool and he is already over 20" so he is gonna be a biggun'. I know a couple people here think this is a Eastern X Goini intergrade but its not as its traceable to known still alive WC S. Georgia Eastern Kingsnakes. Regardless its a cool snake.

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Here are the F1 Grandparents to the hatchling above. They are from WC Echols Co., GA bred to a Tift Co., GA animal. Below is a F2 offspring these F1's If anyone thinks these f1 parents pictured look like or are Goini X Eastern King crosses they are on crack.

The F2 hatchling and Uncle to my above hatchling.

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That is an extremely nice looking snake.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

>>That is an extremely nice looking snake.
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>>3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
>>1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
>>0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata
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Here’s my score for 06. When Brandon posted that anerythristic Goini I was hoping there would be more where that came from. This is from the same breeding that produced his, 66% chance of anyer, Goini x Brooks, patternless to boot, if this proves out I will be, like,

This is not a great picture, but this snake looks better than it did in the picture from the classifieds. I’ll try to get one in the sun after next shed. (I believe there are siblings still available that look an awful lot like that So. Ga cross too, you know where to look)

Dang Keith, that Uncle to the snake pictured is insane! All are pretty awesome, and it's certainly very interesting the variability of the snakes and their offspring.

I really need to get the pics of the babies of this girl on here for y'all to see ...my computer is down... they turned out NICE...

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Matt from Minnesota

>>Dang Keith, that Uncle to the snake pictured is insane! All are pretty awesome, and it's certainly very interesting the variability of the snakes and their offspring.
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>>I really need to get the pics of the babies of this girl on here for y'all to see ...my computer is down... they turned out NICE...
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>Matt from Minnesota
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WOW Thats a beauty for sure. I bet that snake in blue and purple form would be stunning. In reference to what you wrote..

(I believe there are siblings still available that look an awful lot like that So. Ga cross too, you know where to look)

My S. GA Easterns arent crosses. They come from Eastern King bred to Eastern King.

Keith
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Sorry about that “cross” thing, Keith. I realized I did that right after I posted- not meant to slight or go off on an attack. It is amazing the diversity found in California kings, from fully striped to banded, the obvious Variable kings, the Blairs and Alterna versions of greybands and the variation in Goini and the South Georgia Kings. It is certainly not unique to the South Georgia Kings, and all these examples lead me to not question them as pure in the region where they were originated. What is fascinating is that this type of variation seems to be almost unique for Kingsnakes. I know some Texas rats have orange phase, for example, but really it seems to be quite normal in Kingsnake populations.

No offense taken I didnt think you meant it as a slight. Thanks for the reply.

Keith
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its NOT lgg it is very nice thoughcongrats,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Whats this one ? Looks damn near identicval to yours sitting there hatching out. Well TD what is it ?

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It's a corn snake.

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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

You my friend are very astute...a Cornsnake. Any fool can see thats not just a Corn but a "Kingsnake Phase" Okeetee Cornsnake...sheesh !

Keith
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IMHO goini IS lgg(remember im a lumper) your animals IMHO look to have floridana in them.like the sibling you posted, that red/orange is not as prominent in true lgg even fla.ranged lgg are not that red/orange unless theres floridana in the mix and northern ranged lgg have little to any red/orange as hatchlings another dead give away for me is the head! pattern,shape to me screams floridana which in noway is meant as anything other than what it is one mans opinion in that same breath let me say that i like them very much! but do not beleive they should be represented/marketed as lgg. you have to remember being a "newbie" who might think cool lgg which can/will just ad to the current state of confusion on taxa, also it is a true or pure thing ask corn breeders about emory and creamsickles and their opinions i beleive will aline with mine and locality is a non issue in this case as the locality georgia is a known melting pot for getula. imho a more honest approach in representing/marketing them would be as Ga. getula ,or Ga.peaches! lggX??? county info. and not "pure" lgg but to each his own,like johnny says "whatever gets you through the nite"thats alright"athats alright",,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Is that first pic all one snake?
That thing is huge!
WC or CB?
Where/how can I get one like that?

**Drooling**

John D.
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I am so not lesdysxic!

0.1 Creamsicle Cornsake "Yolanda"
1.0 Bairds Ratsnake "Steely Dan"
0.1 Desert Kingsnake "FATTY"
0.1 Black Rat (WV Rescue) "Roberta"

Someone should do mtDNA tests on S Ga Kings to settle this.

Personally, appearances can be deceptive.

Look at the slender salamander - recent dna tests show it is about 20 species or so that just happen to look almost identical.

Appearances can be extremely deceiving. Two things can look just like each other and be completely different species, two things can look like different species yet be the same subspecies.

AFAIK the only way to settle it is in the lab, and you'll probably get disagreement there.

Personally, I like to call them S. Ga Easterns because they are the Easterns I like - and I like to differentiate. If they are pure Lgg or not is unimportant to me. They were not created in the hobby, they were created in the wild. Where they fit into a man made classification system really only matters on an academic level since they are a wild type snake.
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

btw - if you look at field guides, there is a big ass integration range for zonata in northern california that goes up into Oregon with spots into Washington.

The snakes LOOK like an integrade between St. Helena and Sierra subspecies. However, it seems that mtDNA testing shows that they are not an integrade, but rather, St. Helena subspecies that LOOK like they have been influenced by Sierra but actually have not been.

Either a snake can look like an integrade and not be one, or mtDNA is flawed. I suspect the former.

So - any science types want to look at S. Ga getula with a really really really big magnifying glass?
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3.0 WC; 0.3 CB L. getula californiae
1.0 CB L. getula nigrita
0.1.1 WC; 0.0.3 CH Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata

red coloration, but it usually goes away with age, I have seen MANY red ones.
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Frank Roberts
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John Rodriguez and Frank Roberts or vise versa

But, gonna have to disagree with ya. for TWO reasons:
1. Of course I understand that MAYBE you have no or limited info on the history of those South Georgia animals, because you live up north , don't you? I live in the south and have met Kevin Enge more than once and I have to admit that after meeting him in person, I found out he's pretty reliable as I have not caught him changing any stories he's told me so far.
2. The other reason I believe the origin of these animals, is because I have found animals similar to that further east, well outside the range of Goini, in MC. Intosh county, Ga. I had lived there for a good part of my life and collected many kingsnakes. I found most of them looking the same as the ones you have pictured (with thin bands) and some that had really wide bands - all in the same collecting area. So there IS a lot of variability in LGG. You should come to GA. and spend a few seasons in the field and you might agree. . . .(But then again. . .) Oh, well that's it. I quit!!!
However, I still respect your opinion nonetheless and I'm glad you voiced it! That's what this forum is about. The more open we are to others, the more we will learn (at least in the long run). BTW: Nice lookin' hatchlings you got there!

Beers. . .err, I mean Cheers!

Zee

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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

I know him and find him a trustworthy person. But I have known him longer than you and I can tell you his stories have changed. This was before eqsterns were worth a nickle. So everyone makes their mistakes. No biggie, just that you guys think that these easterns have noi goini blood kills me. This has been an ongoing loooooong project and in the end maybe he has some nice S ga animals and he mixed them with his 1/4 goini eatsersn which look identical...I don't know exactly, just what he told me over a 2 year period.

Rainer your own story throws doubt onto what you say. You mentioned that you purchased an Eastern from Enge in the late 90's or early 2000's and it was a nice one (used in your Muttley project, right?). The following year you wanted a mate to the snake and Kevin's animals looked odd and diff. He mentioned to you after you asked that they are Goini X Eastern crosses. This is where you sink yourself...You say they looked odd and I know exactly what you mean. Will Still got his pair around that same time. He also asked Kevin and Kevin provided him with the parentaege...had the pair at the show. Now if you wanna look at this pair and tell me they are a Eastern Goini cross you have lost all credibility and are being petty and dishonest. You know they look identical to that GA Eastern female you have from Enge and they dont look like a Goini X Eastern cross. I find it funny and ironic that YOU of all people would say or insuate that someone who has done a cross in the past cant be trusted...too funny
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Here here Zee. I think its more personal with TD unfortunatley. I see other questionable snakes being posted here and he simply glazes over and says nothing but to me he will take a jab. Thats fine I can take it and I also consider the source. Good points Zee ! By the way your guy is doing great and growing fast. All these hatchlings from this pair are fast growing and big...Rat wreckers in the making

Keith

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Yeah - does seem that way (about certain animosity you described). And as soon as someone does make ANY kind of (remotely offensive) statement, there are a VERY few select individulas that reply with: Great post n/m - If that's all they can come up with, then that just reveals their own immaturity and lack of opinion. Whenever I read:
"Great post, N/m" and it comes after a derogatory statement of sorts, I think to myself " What an IDIOT/LOSER - can't even come up with his OWN statement and JUSTIFY it!!!" Those are the type of folks that just want to add fuel to the fire, because they're STILL IMMATURE, JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL mentality! Of course I hope that even those guys will GROW UP some day and we can all just share information and opinions without the little "pokes-in-the-back", if you know what I mean. The ONLY reason I think that there are folks like that is because for some reason they have an INFERIORITY COMPLEX of some sorts. maybe someone didn't give them enough love when they were growing little children??? Who knows? BUT I WISH THEY WOULDN'T BLAME OTHERS ON HERE! Heck, I'm the first to admit that I'm just a rookie STILL - and I'm man enough to get on here and admit my mistakes and ask stupid questions!!!

(This should not get deleted - as I did NOT use ANY NAMES, make ANY personal attacks at anyone, or harm any animlas in this writing!)

Zee
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Just a liitle poke in the ribs.
-Phil

wow do i like that Apalatchacola phase L.G.G. lol

I'm not very good at seven letter acronyms.
What does ROFLMAO mean?
-Phil

I'm not very good at seven letter acronyms.
What does ROFLMAO mean?

Rolling
On
Floor
Laughing
My
A**
Off
,,,,,,,,thomas davis

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LOL! As a matter of fact, that snake is a (different year clutch) sibling of the same animals that Will Still & Keith Hillson have/had that produced those orange animals with the wide bands.
He's a BIG BOY now (a 03 animal and about 5 foot currently). His father was a six footer (the one that's on Hillson's site).

Zee
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

My eyes! They burn!!!

Someday I'm going to have one just like it...as an adult. Well, that's my dream anyway.

Thanks.
That is a (03') sibling, of the same snakes Will Still and Keith Hillson used to create those orange wide banded ones... The father of that one is that big GA. six footer on Hillson's site.
He's currently five foot long and eating like there's no tomorrow. I will be keeping these black and white as much as possible. He will be breeding with a very similar unrelated female next spring that I purchased in VA. earlier this year.
Here she is:

Zee

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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

.

She is nice cant wait to see babies from that pairing.

Keith
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What gives you the right to call his animals into question here?

Are you a phD?

How much time do you have in the field flipping Kingsnakes in Georgia?
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Peter Jolles
East Coast Colubrids
www.eastcoastcolubrids.com

Now that's what I'm talkin' about! Fell in love w/ those S. GA Easterns @ first sight and that truly is the prettiest one I've seen so far. Keep pumpin' 'em out like that!

reako45

nm
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Keith it's very easy for me to believe that is 100% Georgia eastern. What I see going on here is the same as if you bred two banded cals for a couple generations and came up with really wide banded 50/50's. If it was floridana or goini causing the widening of the bands I think you would almost certainly see some interband lightening and there is none. That snake just looks like a really wide banded chain to me.

Thanks. Why these Kings throw some of these ultra wide banded snakes is unknown to me. Its very reminiscent of the Mosaic Edisto Island, SC animals (see my website). Whats cool is maybe the finest of the wide banded was produced from F1's and all ancestral stock is accounted for. Im the first to admit that they strongly loom like Goini but at the same time they are different and like you said no interband lightening. A few have claimed we are seeing a Goini outcross project but I think it would be rather hard to selectively outbred the interband lightening and retaining the aberrant patterns of Goini in such a short time. Not to mention Im a careful and honest breeder who researches everything I get and I wouldnt put my neck out there for project that wasnt legit. Here are a few others from the clutch. Thanks for the kind words.

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Nice snake Keith..
sort of reminds me of this guy (no eastern)

but you can clearly see differences.
While I am not a fan of the wide/extreme wide banded easterns, they do have a distinct look.
Good luck with him. I'm sure if you breed it to a similar animal, in time, you will pop out a patternless....
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

>>Nice snake Keith..
>>sort of reminds me of this guy (no eastern)
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>>but you can clearly see differences.
>> While I am not a fan of the wide/extreme wide banded easterns, they do have a distinct look.
>> Good luck with him. I'm sure if you breed it to a similar animal, in time, you will pop out a patternless....
>>:Mark
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>>Surrender Dorothy!
>>
>>www.crimsonking.funtigo.com
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what happened with that snake and it's siblings mark? did you every get a pic of the parents?... i'd love to get in on some of those...

~Z
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Royal Blue ReptileZ
Home of Bklyn's Finest Brooksi

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signature file edited 4/22/06; contact an admin.

Zenny, I bet they're still available. I passed on them.
email me.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

www.crimsonking.funtigo.com

Wow! Those S. Georgias are nice! I just might have to get myself a pair someday, along with a pair of "Goini", Edisto Isl. Mosaics, and Pinellas County, Florida Kings, and..., and...,...and...LOL!. One thing I don't understand is the high price on the S. Goergias. A couple of years ago I used to see them for $30-$50 a piece and now they're through the roof. I'm sure there's a reason for it, but I just think that $250 is just a bit on the crazy side. I do understand the elevated price for the nice wide bands that Keith has available,they are exceptionaly colored. Maybe people are just riding on Keiths coat tales, cause I have seen some normal looking ones for pretty high prices too. Just my .02.
-Phil