Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Tom, this is in reponse to your post which I took the liberty of pasting just so nobody gets lost... My response is at the bottom.

"I'm no expert, but I am old enough to know what happens in real life. Much like your friend and his dog. Someone can buy a bloodred from you, and post pictures, and then swap a different snake to show a snake not of your line. LORD, I hate to help morons with ideas, but it will and does happen.

This issue is not going away, and most of it is going to hit the market fast. I'm just a novice , and no inspiration to move much higher. But I had herps at the age of 13 in 1972. I've known a few main herper guys for many years and have known of others a long time too.

I hate to see anymore BS hit this hobby, if that is the correct word "hobby". I personally told Norm Damn he was nuts for breeding Hondurans back in about 1974? as we were all collecting burms and retics. I'll never forget telling him who in the world is really going to want those tiny snakes? LMAO DUH.

I hate to see years of work from people like him, Tim who I know now and greatly respect, and people like you, Kathy and so many others that put in so many years.

Sorry , I was getting pithed.

Oh yea, point is, there are people that are reputable, and those out to make a fast buck. The mutt wave is upon us and IMO it needs to be talked about a lot, and in detail. Also by people like you, and others, so wannabes can not BS the masses. Also so people reading these boards can help spread CORRECT information.
IMOOC

But again, your milk example had me thinking, just how fast could someone sneak something in, and no one know? 3 years per generation, 3 generations per decade. Is 10 years enough to hide something? I guess I was asking more on the idea I want to know, so I do not get scammed.

Again, sorry to tag the idea so close. But Don, I think people are thinking it anyways. When I go to the Cleveland show, I listen to people that don't know I'm listening. Between mutts, 71231 ball python morphs, 8340 boa morphs, laws crashing down, people are going to be even more deceitful than normal. Zoo imports just sent out an email saying they are getting out of herps soon. No loss to me, but I think it is a sign of what's coming.

Off topic I want some of those cool rats you have bad. I should be setting up about 400 breeding rats. God knows how many mice. But I love odd ball stuff. I hope to get to texas to see my brother, then Johnho, and I was hoping to beg a visit to your place.

Thanks for listening to my babble."

I agree entirely with what both you and Don have stated. The industry/hobby is entirely being polluted with too many people wanting to make a few bucks. That is not what it is about at all. It is great if what you love can pay for itself and even better if you can make a few dollars on the side. But it is when everyone else is creating the "next big thing" under false pretense that ruins it for the whole industry (literally) It is almost to the point where I could be walking in the woods, find a new morph and just let it go due to all of the slander associated with new discoveries. It has gotten so bad that some people refuse to buy morphs because they aren't sure what it is anymore. I know quite a few people who wouldn't add a leucistic black rat to their gene pool because there are other leucistic colubrids and that "makes" it a hybrid. The people actually sneaking this blood in the gene pool are ruining the hobby. I refuse to buy from my local pet shop because I know for a fact that their biggest breeder crosses her black rats and corns together and the shop sells them as...you guessed it CORNS! I am not entirely against hybrids, some are gorgeous. But it is our RESPONSABILITY to make sure if someone wants a pure corn that they can buy one.

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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

"You can only take my money for so long. And then I don't have anymore, and then I get angry!"

I have never met Don, nor knew of his work til resent years. But I do respect him and his work. I will respect his wishes.

If KS is watching, this is a nice example why an author should have the power to remove their own posts as in most forums. I know it's a pile of programming, but it is a nice option.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

Sometimes I mean well, I just speak my mind to much?

Maybe I'll brumate til spring?
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

You are entitled to have and express your opinions as much so as anybody else, no matter what your or their experience level is within the hobby, community, etc...

As far as the "hybridization" of corn snakes, with ALL the breedings and crosses done within the last 20 (or more) years any morph or trait that is being sold or worked with has to come under some small degree of suspicion, simply because you don't know for sure. A good example are "Ultra" and "Ultramel" corns. The original breeder crossed his original wild caught (i think) ultra corn snake into corns and gray rats. Now there are probably 1000's of these breedings descendants here in the States, Canada and the UK and EU that are being crossed in and out of other corns. Where do you draw the line at "purity"? It's been joked that captive bred corns should have their own scientific name, something like "Pantherophis Iliketokeepicus" or something along that line

I work with (i.e. I love) "corn snakes", and I just don't stress over purity level anymore, because nothing I do can change the last twenty or so years of the development of the hobby and creation and discovery of new morphs. I have a pair of locality descendant Okeetee's I can look at and hold if I need a "purity fix" :*)...and even then, who's to say someones captive bred "pure" snakes weren't released or escaped in or near the Hunt Club to add their genetic makeup to the wild population. Hope not, but anythings possible............

Post away Tom

I do understand his point. But as I mentioned 1 person I have known since I was a kid. I know, he would NOT EVER, do any tricky dick type things as some do. The guy changes his mice daily, or use to. Cages are perfect. I'm honest to a fault, I can never say that about me. I have a few things that need tending to right now.

I would suspect the people doing the "Tricky Dick" (A GUESS) are the ones a bit more quiet, and jump back and forth to the hobby to cash in.

Many "real breeders" have invested their lives, both time and in a money way too, to their breeding. And it is always so easy to get a blemish on your image. I was a cop, I can relate. Let 1 person say, I think I saw Tom napping in his car last night? And soon, I'm on the carpet saying HUH? Diff topic, but an image is tarnished. I did not mean to do that. The topic was in the thread earlier. Again, a cop thing, I wondered how fast one could totally disguise what they did. This type of question can only be answered by a long term breeder. That may try to breed out or intensify markings. Hence my question.

I find it interesting how people pop in with speculation, and then someone sets the record straight, and they do not even apologize, or try to rebut what they said was SUPPOSE to be the truth. It happened not to long ago. Back to the image. He is right, just the mention makes it stick. For the record I did not start that topic. I just think, since it is there an not going away, the people that know best need to repeatedly state the truth of what is what. Very Sad, that busy people have to do this, but I don't have .1% of the knowledge base on corns as the "real breeders". People that have bred for years, and thousands of babies. Also breeding an keep record, as some just pop out masses for wholesalers. Since I said that, NON of the people in here qualify as those people. Those people would not bother coming to a place like this.

Thank you for the kind words. But again, I'm a retired cop, ex union president, and from the inner city of Cleveland, Ohio. Add all that up and you should know I'll voice my opinion.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

>>You are entitled to have and express your opinions as much so as anybody else, no matter what your or their experience level is within the hobby, community, etc...
>>
>>As far as the "hybridization" of corn snakes, with ALL the breedings and crosses done within the last 20 (or more) years any morph or trait that is being sold or worked with has to come under some small degree of suspicion, simply because you don't know for sure. A good example are "Ultra" and "Ultramel" corns. The original breeder crossed his original wild caught (i think) ultra corn snake into corns and gray rats. Now there are probably 1000's of these breedings descendants here in the States, Canada and the UK and EU that are being crossed in and out of other corns. Where do you draw the line at "purity"? It's been joked that captive bred corns should have their own scientific name, something like "Pantherophis Iliketokeepicus" or something along that line
>>
>>I work with (i.e. I love) "corn snakes", and I just don't stress over purity level anymore, because nothing I do can change the last twenty or so years of the development of the hobby and creation and discovery of new morphs. I have a pair of locality descendant Okeetee's I can look at and hold if I need a "purity fix" :*)...and even then, who's to say someones captive bred "pure" snakes weren't released or escaped in or near the Hunt Club to add their genetic makeup to the wild population. Hope not, but anythings possible............
>>
>>Post away Tom

dogs were mentioned in an earlier discussion, as usually happens.
I find this ammusing because every breed out there was created though mixes to get this specific look or this specific color or this specific apptitude to point game or this specific apptitude to sniff drugs or whatever.
The point I really want to make is when they go to a dog show what do they do.
They LOOK. They say this has the color of a collie, this has the nose of a collie this has the width and height of a collie well by gosh it is a collie. The only problem is that collie over there looks more like a collie then this one.

Lets take a corn bred to an emoryi.
The offspring would be 50% corn 50% emoryi.
A trained eyed could look at this and see some aspect of both species.
Now take that 50/50 and breed it to a corn you bought from a reputable dealer who can trace it back for years and years and can assure you there is no introduction of any species other then guttatus in the time they have been working with this line.
so breed the 50/50 to the corn.
It is not unheard of for people to breed animals at two years of age but let's just use three years as an average.
Now after three years for the 50/50's to grow you then breed them to the "pure" corn. This will give you offspring that are 75%/25% corn/emoryi.
so after only three years you have 75% corn/25% emoryi now a trained eye could probably see some charatceristics of both but it would now be harder to see the emoryi influence.
Three more years and breed back to "pure" corn again.
Now after only 6 years you will have hatchlings that are 87.5% corn 12.5% emoryi.
Almost impossible to see emoryi influence in these.
Another 3 years and breed these back to "pure corn and now you have hatchlings that are 93.75% corn and only 6.25% emoryi.
Absolutely no way to see emoryi inluence in these snakes.
Take it one more breeding..that would be 96.875% corn and only 3.125% emoryi.
Easily within 12 to 15 years you would have animals that would look like corns, eat like corns, breed like corns, grow like corns and behave like corns.
I seriously doubt DNA testing would even find those snakes to be anything other then corn snakes.
What you would have would be corn snakes.
Yes, you will hear people say any emoryi blood means impure corn but those same people will also logically claim a wild caught specimen to be pure, when this may not even be true.
Don made an excellent point about the evolution of snakes and the lack of any of our known species just 50,000 years or so, ago.
Just what is or isn't pure?
Just what would DNA tests show?
And I should also add the fact that in the early years of corn snakes in captivity hundreds and hundreds of captive bred corns were released into the wild.
There wasn't as big a market for corns so the non-keepers were released. Also the great plains rat snake (emoryi) was considered a sub species of the corn snake so there wasn't a second thought to releasing emoryi/corn mixes that might have been produced in some early projects...Like candy cane for instance.
Rich Z. has stated quite a few times that he used to release hatchlings onto THE Okeetee Hunt Club grounds.
How many of those wild caught, "pure" specimens supposedly caught on the hunt club every year descended from those snakes we know were released there?
Does this take anything away from any normal looking corns caught there? Absolutely not. Like I said earlier what you have are snakes that look like corns, eat like corns, breed like corns, grow like corns and behave like corns. You have corn snakes.

Now I am not saying we shouldn't worry about "other" blood getting into corn snakes, we need to be carefull with how we represent our animals and how we document our breedings, obviously, but if you look at the thousands and thousands of "pure" corns bred every year, all over the world, it is just not mathmatically logical to think intergradation or hybridization will or would wipe out pure corns as we know them.
It just doesn't add up.
I do strongly believe in representing every snake sold or given away as exactly what it is.
Trade name and explination of what that name means.

uh oh
Aflac commercial just on.....If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and lays eggs that hatch out to be ducks then you can just about bet it is a duck...AFLAC!!...LOL

This is only posted here because this was the last post I read in the thread. It is not directed at anyone specific.
It is just some of my rambling thoughts on the subject.
and a picture just to ease the boredom of reading my ramblings...lol

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Good post Jimmy, and what a picture that is. Frosty is one heck of a beauty.
Jimmy, did you happen to get my email I sent you? About your pics of Odin?

Steve

>>my rambling thoughts on the subject.
and a picture just to ease the boredom of reading my ramblings...lol

>>Good post Jimmy, and what a picture that is. Frosty is one heck of a beauty.
>>Jimmy, did you happen to get my email I sent you? About your pics of Odin?
>>
>>Steve
>>
>>
>>

Yes,
I meant to e-mail you back but got distracted.
They not only had Odin's picture but the amel pictured was one of my amels, Eowyn and the yellow rat snake and bairds rat snake hatchling were my photos also.
I e-mailed them but haven't see a response yet.
I will give them a few more days to respond.
Thanks for the heads up.
By the way, I think most of their pictures are stolen. A lot of them looked familiar.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Trouble with the emory is one day it is a corn, then a sub specie, then a different species.

Someone has to do DNA. And even then, what % of differences and in what areas "markers" will it constitute a sub sp or a new sp?

I just see DNA being a different venue even further away from what most of use can understand.

I really did not mean to continue this. And I really hate the use of emory's. If I hate money and backing could I influence a college to "prove" the emory is really so closley related to a corn, they would back the idea? Sound crazy? Money talks.

Any of us that went to college knows that many professors just want to be published.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

>>
>>I really did not mean to continue this. And I really hate the use of emory's. If I hate money and backing could I influence a college to "prove" the emory is really so closley related to a corn, they would back the idea? Sound crazy? Money talks.
>>
>>Any of us that went to college knows that many professors just want to be published.
>>-----

I really have no idea what you are trying to say here.
Help me out.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I was in the hospital so maybe its all the meds? lol

But you used an example of "crossing a corn with an emory"

But as I know, the emory was thought to be a corn at one point, correct?

Then it was a sub sp, making the cream an intergrade?

Someone can again claim findings that the emory is a corn with or without DNA use.

Since the emory has chanced classification so much I do not put a lot of credibility if a cream is a corn "pure" an intergrade or a hybrid. Since the emory has changed so much.

that make sense?
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

Facet blocks, demeral, norco. It can alter your point of view. The other day I was on the other side of the room from myself!

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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

>>Facet blocks, demeral, norco. It can alter your point of view. The other day I was on the other side of the room from myself!
>>
>>
why in the hospital?
Hope it's nothing serious.
Jimmy

Appreciate the concern. I got hurt in 93, got clipped by a van directing traffic. Was not all that spectacular. but broke 2 vertbre.

Long story short, my back is pretty screwed up MUHAHAHAHAHa
literally. they bolts one vertbre back together. but I have a bad area still at the bottom.

In MARCH, we started to request BWC for treatments. Facets really helped but are very short lived. But it indicates exactly where between the S-1 and L-5 nerves are being arrated. So, next I hope nerve ablation, they burn the nerve tips with radio waves. No real side effects, and it lasts 6 months to a year.

Someday I have to scan my xrays, they used 1/4"x20 hanger bolts. But titanium of course. but it looks like something we'd make in a garage lol.

Thanks again
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

>>I was in the hospital so maybe its all the meds? lol
>>
>>But you used an example of "crossing a corn with an emory"
>>
>>But as I know, the emory was thought to be a corn at one point, correct?
>>
>>Then it was a sub sp, making the cream an intergrade?
>>
>>Someone can again claim findings that the emory is a corn with or without DNA use.
>>
>>Since the emory has chanced classification so much I do not put a lot of credibility if a cream is a corn "pure" an intergrade or a hybrid. Since the emory has changed so much.
>>
>>that make sense?

Not sure.
I think you are saying that emoryi doesn't realy count in discussions of hybrids? I personally think emoryis are a sub species of corn but thats my opinion and my opinion doesn't really count no matter how many times I write it...lol
And if this is true my examples of percentages using emoryi don't really matter?
Maybe it is my lack of meds that is causing me confusion...lol
I use emoryi because that is the most common mix and there are many many people who view emoryi to corn to be hybridization and not intergradation and therefore one of the contributers to the end of corn snakes as we know them.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I think the emory is prolly a sub sp.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

do you think that maybe the size of the eggs or the actual number of eggs in the clutch might help to differentiate between a 100% corn vs the 90 % corn?
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phflame
kingsnake.com host

>>do you think that maybe the size of the eggs or the actual number of eggs in the clutch might help to differentiate between a 100% corn vs the 90 % corn?
>>-----

I don't think so.
I have cinnamons that are 37.5% emoryi and they average about 20 eggs. The clutches and egg size are right there with my corns.
With my limited experience I wouldn't call it scientific proof but it leads me to believe if you can't really see a difference at 37% emoryi there would be no way to differentiate at 10% emoryi.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Size does not matter. I keep saying that?

Am I off topic again?
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

first off all of you know im pro hybrid, second of all im not willing to argue right or wrong(anymore), but i do believe that everyone has the right to breed what they want regardless.
with that said their is a place in the hobby for both pure snakes and hybrids and we all have a moral obligation to keep good records and sell honestly. with out this you can and will ruin the hobby(for yourself or others) but not everyone is moral or ethical and we all have to keep an eye out for this crap. but the best thing we can all do is to be honest and educate ourselfs to hybrid markers, this takes experience and lots of knowledge about all species that could be involved.

next subject please

ok you said that 2 pure animals of differant species would be 50/50! that is correct
now you breed that animal back to a pure species but you wont get a 75/25 because that animal that is 50/50 might not pass on exactly 50% of each animal involved, it may pass on 100% of one species and 0 of the other or 75 and 25 so in theory you COULD get a 100% pure animal from this breeding. doubtful but possible not probable. but definetly not predictible
adam
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hybrid breeders association
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 butter corns
1.5 ghost corns
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 childrens python
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 milksnake phase
0.1 anery motley
0.1 bone white cross
0.1 albino banded cal king
0.1. normal corn het hypo,anery
1.0. snow corn het hypo,anery,amel
1.0. amel corn unknown hets(4ft 8inch long)
1.0 sinacorn
1.0 blizzard leo gecko
0.2 normal leo geckos
1.0 3 lined mud turtle

You are correct. I seriously doubt it would ever happen at the 50/50 level but once you get to the 98/2% Your odds are getting much better. In the end the question would change from "how much corn is in my emoryi" to "how much emoryi is in my corn?"
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0.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
0.0.1 MO Locale Black Ratsnake "Molly" (Flogging Molly)

"You can only take my money for so long. And then I don't have anymore, and then I get angry!"